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Post by mystic on Oct 27, 2020 5:12:02 GMT -8
I have 2 pics on my walls. One of Moses kneeling before the burning bush on my Eastern wall and another right in front of my work desk of Christ.
Exodus 20 shows "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above," am I violating this law?
I talk to those images sometimes as it makes me feel like I am talking to a person so for me it helps bring me closer to God.
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Post by alon on Oct 27, 2020 7:38:21 GMT -8
I have 2 pics on my walls. One of Moses kneeling before the burning bush on my Eastern wall and another right in front of my work desk of Christ. Exodus 20 shows "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above," am I violating this law? There is some disagreement about what constitutes a graven image. Most agree that to be graven it must have raised or uneven surfaces. Most say it must be of an animal or person. However in my old synagogue halacha was it had to have a head. So for example jump wings were fine, but a badge with an eagle was not. Some would say however that flat likenesses such as drawings or pictures qualify. I am not a rabbi, and so cannot make halacha. I pretty much just go with what my old synagogue/rabbi said- a carved or embossed image of a man, animal, or heavenly being which has a head or face.
I talk to those images sometimes as it makes me feel like I am talking to a person so for me it helps bring me closer to God. Here we have a problem. While some things are specified as graven images (depending on whose halacha you follow), anything can be used as an idol, which is what a graven image really is. The purpose of an idol is worship. However we today have a distorted view of what is being worshiped and how it's done. The Hebrews who made the golden calf did not think that idol was really God. However Moshe was on the mountain 40 days. At some point they thought he was not coming back. They had (they thought) lost their only conduit to God. Remember they had been slaves for most of 400 yrs in Egypt. They still thought a lot like their pagan slave masters, And to be close God the thought they needed an idol, the purpose of which was to attract the presence of the deity. Then they could worship and pray, they thought to God. But this is a purely pagan form of worship, and God forbids us to mix pagan forms with worship of Himself. He especially forbids idolatry. That was their sin.
So yes, if you are thinking these items are helping bring you closer to God as you pray to Him then it is a sin. Now since you didn't know it is not a "sin unto dath" (as Rav Shaul would say); not a transgression. You still must repent and change. But it wasn't as serious as knowing and still doing it. That is a much more grievous sin. You can still repent and be forgiven. But my experience is that kind of sin damages relationships, and you'd risk your relationship with God being diminished if you continue then later do repent. If they have become idols to you, I'd get rid of them. And the way you describe it, they have.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Oct 28, 2020 3:30:04 GMT -8
Right. My thoughts of making a graven image is to like sculpt a statue of something or someone. I guess putting a pic up on the wall is no different.
I don't pray to the pictures, I use it to focus, I look at a pic of Christ then close my eyes and pray to him while imaging I am seeing him "in the sky" so I am not sure if this would constitute praying to an idol? I like to have some "thing" around me to keep reminding me not to focus on worldly things and also to live within the 10 commandments. Looking at a pic of Christ and God right there in my work room all through the day helps me to do this.
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Post by alon on Oct 28, 2020 4:29:34 GMT -8
Right. My thoughts of making a graven image is to like sculpt a statue of something or someone. I guess putting a pic up on the wall is no different.I don't pray to the pictures, I use it to focus, I look at a pic of Christ then close my eyes and pray to him while imaging I am seeing him "in the sky" so I am not sure if this would constitute praying to an idol?
Our God is different. Our God wants us to remember (זָכַר zâkar) who and what He is. We read of Him in scripture and know Him not only by what He tells us about Himself, but by the promises He made!H2142 זָכַר zâkar properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember; by implication to mention; earnestly, be male, (make) mention (of), be mindful, recount, record (-er), remember, make to be remembered, bring (call, come, keep, put) to (in) remembrance, still, think on, well.
Nehemiah 4:14b (ESV) Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome
Not "Look at an image and think about Me," but "זָכַר zâkar Remember the Lord." We are even told to remind Him of what we've done:Nehemiah 5:19 (ESV) Remember for my good, O my God, all that I have done for this people.And we are told to remind God of His promises:
Isaiah 62:6b (ESV) You who put the Lord in remembrance, take no rest,
To put someone in remembrance is to remind them. Now God doesn't need the reminder. He never forgets. But what He's saying here is, more to the point "If you want results, YOU remember, and keep praying. Remember who and what I am. Remember what I promised. Remember my essence, not some artists rendition of what I supposedly looked like. Remind Me, and in the process strengthen your own faith." But if your faith needs idol, and a picture used for the same purposes of an idol IS an idol, then you really have no faith. Instead of looking at an image then concentrating on that in your mind, try thinking about what you know of God from His word. Think about His promises relevant to what the problems you are dealing with. Focus on His word. A "thing" to remind you of God and/or the things of God is the very definition of an idol.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Oct 28, 2020 9:07:45 GMT -8
images on garments:
Exodus 39:26 A bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate, round about the hem of the robe to minister in; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Images in the tabernacle:
Exodus 37:20 And in the candlestick were four bowls made like almonds, his knops, and his flowers:
Exodus 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
Images in the temple:
1 Kings 7:25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
1 Kings 7:29 And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work.
1 Kings 6:18 And the cedar of the house within was carved with knops and open flowers: all was cedar; there was no stone seen.
Images seem to fine so long as you don't bow down to them.
Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
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Post by alon on Oct 28, 2020 17:49:33 GMT -8
images on garments: Exodus 39:26 A bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate, round about the hem of the robe to minister in; as the LORD commanded Moses. Images in the tabernacle: Exodus 37:20 And in the candlestick were four bowls made like almonds, his knops, and his flowers: Exodus 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. Images in the temple: 1 Kings 7:25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward. 1 Kings 7:29 And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work. 1 Kings 6:18 And the cedar of the house within was carved with knops and open flowers: all was cedar; there was no stone seen. Images seem to fine so long as you don't bow down to them.
A very good argument may also be made that He specifically said not to make images of animals, people, or heavenly beings. The way this is stated those are in addition to images of other things that may be worshiped. As to images in the Mishkan and later the Temple, those places are meant to be a reflection of the Temple in the heavens where God's throne now resides. So yes, they had images otherwise proscribed. Also the God who commands us not to make an image of a thing may also command us to make an exception.
However I agree there is some room for interpretation here.So we've all 3 at least agreed on the fact we should make no kind of image for the purpose of worshiping it, whether graven or otherwise. Bur what about worshiping something intended to represent God Himself? You'd think it is ok to worship an image of THE ONE God, right? Deuteronomy 4:15-19 “Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven. "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire." God chose not to show and image representing Himself when He spoke directly to the Hebrews at Horeb, which He uses as a reason we should not make images to represent Himself. So even if we were to say it is ok to carve images of birds, fish, or anything else; and even though we agree pictures are ok, using a picture to represent God and "focus" our attention when we pray is at least pushing the boundaries of idolatry. I think it crosses the line into idolatry, as I previously demonstrated God wants us to worship Him in spirit, as a Spirit: John 4:23-24 (ESV) But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” Dan C
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Post by mystic on Oct 29, 2020 4:02:30 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 4:15-19 “Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven. "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire." God chose not to show and image representing Himself when He spoke directly to the Hebrews at Horeb, which He uses as a reason we should not make images to represent Himself. So even if we were to say it is ok to carve images of birds, fish, or anything else; and even though we agree pictures are ok, using a picture to represent God and "focus" our attention when we pray is at least pushing the boundaries of idolatry. I think it crosses the line into idolatry, as I previously demonstrated God wants us to worship Him in spirit, as a Spirit: John 4:23-24 (ESV) But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” Dan C
Yes, yet again, you've accurately put my thoughts into words! I had thought since my pics would be of Christ and God themselves that this would be ok. I can now clearly see from those scriptures that what I was doing all this time is idolatry, thank you! I will pull down those pics. What if I were to put up a pic of like Moses holding the 2 tablets or a plaque showing the 10 Commandments, just as a constant reminder of God's commandments, would that be within the scriptures? |
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Post by alon on Oct 29, 2020 13:41:31 GMT -8
I can now clearly see from those scriptures that what I was doing all this time is idolatry, thank you! I will pull down those pics. What if I were to put up a pic of like Moses holding the 2 tablets or a plaque showing the 10 Commandments, just as a constant reminder of God's commandments, would that be within the scriptures?
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Oct 30, 2020 3:05:19 GMT -8
Noted. I just like having things around me which reminds me of God is all. What about people having a cross on their walls or wearing it on a necklace or having it tattooed on their bodies? |
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Post by alon on Oct 31, 2020 6:08:17 GMT -8
mystic, I just posted part of the actual commandments concerning worship:
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4961/commandments-worshipIt may clarify things further for you, especially the section on Idolatry. If not, you can ask about it either there or here, whichever organizes it best for you.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Jul 30, 2021 2:21:44 GMT -8
I am not clear on if the Cross is something we should keep or wear on our bodies and not seeing any scriptures for this?
Also, I would like to get and hand a pic of Moses and the 10 Commandments on my wall right in front of my desk so I can see it all day long during my work day, would this be wrong, if yes then what about a pic of only the 10 Commandments? Since Moses was human I can't see this as being a "likeness of anything in the heavens" but since the 10 Commandments was done with the finger of God this makes it confusing.
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Post by alon on Jul 30, 2021 4:03:18 GMT -8
I am not clear on if the Cross is something we should keep or wear on our bodies and not seeing any scriptures for this? 1.) The Cross is a Christian symbol, and as such most Messianics do not wear one or in any way display one.
2.) The Cross has been used for 2000 yrs as an idol. Christians kneel and worship and pray before it, thinking "it brings them closerr to God" and "He will hear us better if we 'come to the Cross.'" Sound familiar?. They kiss it and sometimes imbue it with "power." I'd avoid wearing a cross for those reasons.
3.) You still seem to be looking for something to bring you closer to God. Things cannot do that. In fact, it is much more likely they will give you a false, purely emotional fixation rather than a true truly close experience. Not saying emotions can't be a part of our worship, but they should come as a result of worship and closeness to God, not be part of the vehicle to bing you close.
Also, I would like to get and hand a pic of Moses and the 10 Commandments on my wall right in front of my desk so I can see it all day long during my work day, would this be wrong, if yes then what about a pic of only the 10 Commandments? Since Moses was human I can't see this as being a "likeness of anything in the heavens" but since the 10 Commandments was done with the finger of God this makes it confusing. No, it wouldn't be wrong in and of itself. But if you are having a problem fixating on pictures to bring you cloe to God then yes, you'd be wrong. And it doesn't matter that God wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger. Using them as an idol would still make them an idol. It's up to you, however since you have said you have this problem, my advice is not to do it. |
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Post by mystic on Jul 31, 2021 4:09:20 GMT -8
I was just thinking that in the same way a Mezuzah is used in a home to fulfill the mitzvah (Biblical commandment) to "write the words of God on the gates and doorposts of your house" (Deuteronomy 6:9) then why can't a Christian or Messianic put the writing of the 10 Commandments up on a wall? It is not to worship the writing or picture itself as an idol, it is simply a reminder of God's commands, I see nothing at all wrong with this but just checking for another opinion.
Also, I am very aware now after all of my deep studies that no ornament in itself will bring someone closer to God.
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Post by alon on Jul 31, 2021 5:00:22 GMT -8
I was just thinking that in the same way a Mezuzah is used in a home to fulfill the mitzvah (Biblical commandment) to "write the words of God on the gates and doorposts of your house" (Deuteronomy 6:9) then why can't a Christian or Messianic put the writing of the 10 Commandments up on a wall? It is not to worship the writing or picture itself as an idol, it is simply a reminder of God's commands, I see nothing at all wrong with this but just checking for another opinion. Also, I am very aware now after all of my deep studies that no ornament in itself will bring someone closer to God.
Hope it helped, regardless. I know it helps clarify some things for me to answer you, since I just thought of one place I need to remove an idol that I had not even considered. I have a leather stamp with a very small cross on it. When I came to MJ I destroyed or defaced several hundred dollars worth of leather stamps and leather items with either carved or stamped images that are proscribed. But every once in a while one or two I find have eluded me. I don't worship them, but neither do I keep them around. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 1, 2021 3:34:40 GMT -8
Yes, you are correct. In the Catholic Church I used to attend there is a massive cross at the back wall and images of christ at the side walls and during the service I would zero in on the cross and pictures and pray. I see what you mean I can have the 10 commandments plaque or pic on my wall just not use it to pray or focus on it when praying.
I always seems to have the need to have a vision of something when I pray, sometimes it's Christ standing over me with his hand on my head and sometimes it's a kinda human image of God in the sky, is that idolatry too?
How do you pray, just focus on the words alone or other please?
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