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Post by mosheli on Nov 24, 2020 16:06:18 GMT -8
Thankyou Alon/Dan,
I don't know what to say. I felt bad afterwards for having posted it. That is bad those things you have too. But I don't know why God doesn't do more healing and helping and deliverance. I understand that we have to have some trials and tribulations but it shouldn't be hell on earth and we should also have consolation and comforter and love etc (from God and also with believers). Many christians I know (I don't know many messianics) are suffering things (though not as bad as me), while the elite evildoers are not suffering.
God is supposed to be loving, just, compassionate etc. And christianty/messianism is supposed to be positives not just negatives. Why did Jesus suffer all those things if they make no difference to us in this life?
I'll try one last time to have faith and grace and keep mouth shut for as long as I can but if God doesn't alleviate some of the worst hell things then I won't be able to keep believing as it is just too mean and cruel. I can try praying for you too but if God doesn't answer my prayers maybe there is no point.
Mosheli/Sean.
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Post by alon on Nov 24, 2020 20:36:52 GMT -8
Thankyou Alon/Dan, I don't know what to say. I felt bad afterwards for having posted it. That is bad those things you have too. But I don't know why God doesn't do more healing and helping and deliverance. You are missing the point. Blaming God for our problems solves nothing. But we either believe in Him, trust Him even in our infirmity, or we don't. That's our choice, day by day and minute by minute some days. I didn't tell you that to evoke sympathy or pity (which is why I never mentioned it before here that I can remember), but so you would know I am not just handing you the same type of platitudes I am certain you've heard many, many times before. I am speaking to you from long, bitter experience. Please reread what I said and take it to heart.I understand that we have to have some trials and tribulations but it shouldn't be hell on earth ... Trust me, I wholeheartedly agree! But sometimes it is, and we few, we lucky few are just, for some reason, "it." Just makes me feel all special, you bet! But instead of blaming God, try working with Him. Live for those moments of relative calm, and seek His help persevering through those terrible times when it all just crushes you under its weight. and we should also have consolation and comforter and love etc (from God and also with believers). We do, but we must accept Him on His terms. We cannot blackmail Him into acting as we want. I don't know how many times I've seen problem employees tell a manager "If you don't XXXXX, I quit!" And they typically say "Oh no, don't do that ..." And from that point that problem employee owns that manager. I made few friends telling them all they were idiots! "He's a problem, you were wringing your hands over having to start the process to let him go just this morning, and he just solved all your problems. He quit! And you just convinced him to stay, and on HIS terms! Thou fool!" Well, God is no fool. We follow Him on His terms, or not at all.
The veiled threat if He doesn't do this for me I'll lose faith (and believe me, I've come close, maybe even crossed that line; I really don't remember), but that amounts to spiritual blackmail. 1.) That won't work on God, and 2.) saying that, you've already lost faith. And believe me again when I say I understand that too. They aren't called trials because they are easy, and I have to believe He does understand when we falter, our faith wanes, even slips. But it's where we end up that counts. Many christians I know (I don't know many messianics) are suffering things (though not as bad as me), while the elite evildoers are not suffering. God is supposed to be loving, just, compassionate etc. And christianty/messianism is supposed to be positives not just negatives. Why did Jesus suffer all those things if they make no difference to us in this life? Your real question there is why do evil men prosper and good men suffer. That has been asked by every believer since Adam. The only thing I can tell you is the vile ones have no reason to have their faith tested. They have none. I know, that's one of those platitudes we are often given, but that's the only answer I have. Sorry.
As to why Yeshua died, it had nothing to do with our convenience, everything to do with our salvation.
I'll try one last time to have faith and grace and keep mouth shut for as long as I can but if God doesn't alleviate some of the worst hell things then I won't be able to keep believing as it is just too mean and cruel. I can try praying for you too but if God doesn't answer my prayers maybe there is no point. Mosheli/Sean. Wrong answer. We are to try time and time again, until trying becomes our go to answer, not quitting. And you don't have to keep your mouth shut, just change your reason for opening it. Do so to glorify God. That's the focus that will see you through this.
Meanwhile, learn not to stress over the things you cannot change, like fluoridation. I agree it's bad, but nothing you or I can do about it. So I let it go. Our emotional and even physical reserves are stressed to the limit as it is. Adding worries or things that anger us to the mix is wildly counterproductive. Just let it go. Which will be another work in process, probably a long one at that. I pray daily for the strength to let many things I was once passionate about go. And know what, it is working! I do see results, baruch HaShem. Things still trigger the old feelings at times, but I look at that like an opportunity to deal with it on a deeper level now.
We both have a long way to go, and a difficult road ahead. But the destination is more than we can imagine! Stay the course. Fight the good fight. We can do this.
Dan |
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Post by alon on Nov 25, 2020 4:33:54 GMT -8
mosheli, here's something to consider:
The Rift Valley runs like a deep trench longitudinally through eastern Israel. Its sides are steep and rugged, and the floor of the valley is relatively narrow. In southern Israel the valley reaches its lowest point, the Dead Sea; also the lowest point on earth. Just south of the Dead Sea is En Gedi, which is mentioned in the Bible a few times. The sides of the Rift are very steep and rugged there, much of it being almost completely vertical rock. In this rock are many natural caves.
1 Samuel 23:29-24:2 (ESV) And David went up from there and lived in the strongholds of Engedi. When Saul returned from following the Philistines, he was told, “Behold, David is in the wilderness of Engedi.” Then Saul took three thousand chosen men out of all Israel and went to seek David and his men in front of the [Rocks of the Wild Goats].
The wild goats were actually Ibex, a hardy goat like creature that thrives in rugged, arid regions. They’re known for the ability to climb almost sheer, vertical cliff faces. They can walk along the narrowest of ledges, jumping from one small ledge to another to scale these cliffs:
2 Samuel 22:34 (KJV) He maketh my feet like hinds' feet: and setteth me upon my high places.
Habakkuk 3:19 (KJV) The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.
David says “He maketh my feet like hinds’ feet: and setteth me upon my high places.” This references the Ibex and their ability to scale this terrain. This is a purposeful reference- God is not causing Saul to stop looking for him, nor is He making the desert bloom here, and it is still hot and mostly barren. God does not change David’s circumstances in any way. What He did was give David the right kind of feet, in other words the ability to handle those circumstances.
Dan C
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Post by mosheli on Nov 25, 2020 20:54:33 GMT -8
Thanks that Alon/Dan.
Its just that its hard to know and believe if he is ever going to answer the worst needs. If he doesn't then its hard to love a God that does/allows such mean and cruel.
But I've had a new idea possible answer? come since the first post that Yeshua/Jesus should be the focus/light/truth in everything.
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Post by mosheli on Nov 28, 2020 15:13:32 GMT -8
Its no use I just am not able to have faith, it is impossible in this situation.
Try to imagine what it is like being forced to hear a constant ringing sound going all day and night for 3 years so far which is impossible to block out (except with other noise) because the type of sound it is it penetrates regardless. (And all the neighbours and the authorities purposely refuse to help stop it except forcing medication on/in me.)
And that is just one thing, there are the lots of other things too some of which I listed like being forced to eat fluoridated water/food every meal every day.
No matter how much I try to convince myself to believe God/Jesus will stop it I just can't believe he is going to when it just keeps on going on constantly all day every day. I believe if Jesus was here he would answer. But he is not here and I can't believe with constant ongoing bad. I've tried to focus and believe Yeshua/Jesus is the answer but when it comes to believing during ongoing constant suffering I just can't believe he will answer.
So I am saying goodbye until God stops some of the worst constant hell things. I know that it means I will suffer all my so-called "life" like my unbelieving father has but I've tried to believe and it doesn't make any difference. If God/Jesus exists I accept I am a sinner (though no worse than everyone else especially the evil elite) and that Jesus/Yeshua is the only way. But it is impossible for me to do anything because the constant mean cruel hell wrongs I'm suffering. I am not blackmailing God, I feel I am blackmailed being forced to have to believe amidst such mean cruel hell wrongs. I don't expect life to be a perfect bed of roses, but it should be hell on earth.
I'm no prosperity gospelite, but neither am I a suffering goseplite. Messianism/Christianity is supposed to have good not just bad.
Good News
Healing
Deliverance
Grace
Mercy
Love
Salvation
Comforter
Consolation
Life
Light
Hope
Prosper
Free
Peace
Compassion
Justice
But all I see is tribulation, trials, persecution, etc.
Its not just me, others like Alon/Dan shouldn't be suffering such bad either, even though we can't expect perfect and expect some tribulation/persecution. Its like the Devil has everyone deceived to accept things we shouldn't. Jesus/Yeshua didn't just die for salvation he suffered for healing etc. Salvation isn't just for eternal life, its for here and now too, full salvation. He didn't just teach he healed people etc. But even so I just can't seem to have faith everytime I have tried.
So for all the trouble.
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Post by alon on Nov 28, 2020 16:58:01 GMT -8
Its no use I just am not able to have faith, it is impossible in this situation.
I will not cancel your account unless you request it. So coming back will be as simple as posting. Likewise if you have questions or need help we'll be here. As will God.
Dan |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 3, 2020 14:59:56 GMT -8
Sorry but here I go again because things haven't got any better despite my other posts. I urgently need to find out why God is seemingly not ever answering my prayers for so very long. I know you don't know me so it may not be easy to find/know why but I don't know what else to do since nothing else is working. - God won't stop me being fluoridated every meal every day. (I tried again to buy a filter but found out it was bad when got it.) - God won't stop the neighbours heat pump ringing sound in my flat. (Everyone I try to ask to help solve it refuses and instead I wrongly got put under the mental health act.) - God won't stop me still being under force under the mental health act. - God won't stop me being stuck in this flat not able to shift because of housing crisis and excessive prices/rents. - God won't stop me always never getting any positive for my hard work studies discoveries and info/ideas. (Don't mean pride or mammon but just it being worth it and some positive.) - God won't stop me suffering OCD trouble. (There is no answer except medication or EMDR which have problems.) - God won't stop me always being stopped from being able to do my good paper studies because of constant miserable troubles. - God won't stop me being in 40s and still always been single and alone. - God won't even stop me having problems with having faith and keeping my mouth shut. - God won't help me find or found a (local offline/online) (christian/messianic) group or friends where I fit in and am an equal valued part. Instead everyone I try I don't fit in. None of these things is "asking amiss" for my "own fleshly desires". They are serious life needs. Yes everyone have problems but here where I am I don't see/hear many suffering as bad as what I have been. I can't ever seem to find out why God is never answering my prayers and what to do to get him to answer. The only thing I could think of is James 1 says one can' expect aything from God if they can't have faith without wavering and also keep mouth from negative words. But I've tried and its impossible tohave faith for so long when suffering such constant hell problems (and no positives)? The only other thing I thought is I know its grace not works but even me begging for mercy/grace doesn't work. Then i get the thoughts faith without works is dead, and then I get confused about whether its too much works and too little grace or too little works and too much grace. I need prayers if anyone can pray, though I know we can't pray for everyone we see and hear. For awhile I did better at knowing I have no other hope/choice but to have to have faith and andkeep mouth shut and surely God will have to answer then because no fault and because these things are injust mean cruel wrongs and he has to do something about them. But things just keep not changing and things keep going wrong and I just can't have faith and keep my mouth shut. Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. So Adam blamed Eve and ultimately God for his problems and Eve blamed the serpent for her problems. one of my daughters is 30 and never married or even dated. But she is far form being alone. She has adopted three children and takes care of a wheel chair bound crippled man. When life gives you lemons make lemonade. |
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Post by mosheli on Dec 4, 2020 19:26:09 GMT -8
I would have just read, but I just had to answer.
In Genesis/Bereshith God judged all 3 Adam, Eve/Chavah and the Serpent (Nahash), not just one. Likewise we should have all 3 helps God, others, and self, versus all 3 harms/hindrances Devil, others/world, self. And we have all 3 spiritual, social, material in that order.
But instead the regime and christians are so hyper-individualistic. Unfortunately no one likes negative, and the Psalmist experienced similar that no one cares when things are bad. But then when God saved him everyone shared their joy. (Seems rotten people who forsake you in bad can then share your joy when good.)
God said it is not good for man to be alone, yet Adam had God.
A single man like me can't adopt children, and I have no oppourtunity to take care of disabled etc. Indeed there are strict tests to make sure there are not abusers and that you are able to take care of them. And its not the same as having a companion and own children and family and friends.
I don't deny I have past & present sin/mistakes, but this is not all my fault, and the punishment far exceeds the crime while others are punished far less for far worse. Job never did anything wrong until he was self-righteous after being tested. I'm not blaming God, I admit some of it is from my past mistakes/sins, though I do blame others for many wrongs been & being done to me such as being abused, going through multiple foster placements, fluoridation, mass unemployment, housing crisis, etc etc etc (and not just bad things they done but good things they haven't done).
They say here that they are going to lessen the mental health restrictions on me in a few months. But everyone has still been refusing to fix the ringing sound problem, and as far as I know the fluoridation problem. And none of the other problems are changed/fixed yet. And the oven element blew a couple of days ago adding more trouble.
Seeing needs, having understanding, compassion, sympathy/empathy, caring, loving, etc seems to be a gift only some people like me have but many don't have. I've heard it said/claimed that women don't want a man to give solutions but to sympathise and agree it is difficult.
My position is I have given up trying and worrying about having faith since I have tried and I know I can't when suffering such constant daily ongoing wrongs. If God fixes the couple/few of worst things then I'll try again to follow the Way more fully. I will only be careful in the meantime not to do any sin or opposite-to-faith that will sabotage any answer. Its just simply that I can't have faith (believe he will stop the cruel wrongs) and love God when constantly daily suffering such mean cruel hell ongoing wrongs (and no positives).
(Sorry if its not quite end of sabbath. I don't really get to rest on sabbath in my situation.)
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Post by alon on Dec 4, 2020 21:16:26 GMT -8
Sometimes it is difficult to give an honest answer. Please know the spirit it is given in is a desire to help. But to do that I am going to have to be very honest, because what you write seems to reveal a lot about what you think. And I fear it is not at all how you see yourself. I am really going to go out on a limb here and suggest you allow your mental health professional to read this entire thread and get his/her take on it. That way if I am mistaken in anything they can correct it; if I am right then the validation should give you some direction.
And there is absolutely no shame in seeking advice from a mental health pro. In fact, these days the shame would be in your NOT asking for help!
In Genesis/Bereshith God judged all 3 Adam, Eve/Chavah and the Serpent (Nahash), not just one. Likewise we should have all 3 helps God, others, and self, versus all 3 harms/hindrances Devil, others/world, self. And we have all 3 spiritual, social, material in that order. God is our help. But He doesn't always help how we want, and we do not get to tell Him how to help! There is an answer, but you have to get past this "I want God to do it like this" idea and look for the answer He gives.
But instead the regime and christians are so hyper-individualistic. Unfortunately no one likes negative, and the Psalmist experienced similar that no one cares when things are bad. But then when God saved him everyone shared their joy. (Seems rotten people who forsake you in bad can then share your joy when good.) Trust me, I know what you are saying. I pray for another fellowship here all the time. But that will happen in His time, not mine.
God said it is not good for man to be alone, yet Adam had God. Well, if we don't have God also, it is our own fault. As my rabbi used to say, "You are exactly as close to God at this moment as you want to be."
A single man like me can't adopt children, and I have no oppourtunity to take care of disabled etc. Indeed there are strict tests to make sure there are not abusers and that you are able to take care of them. And its not the same as having a companion and own children and family and friends. If you are having trouble caring for yourself and dealing with life's problems, why do you think taking on the responsibilities of children or the care of a disabled person, or for that matter a wife is a good idea? Marriage is difficult; children and the disabled are exponentially moreso! You are wanting them to solve your problem of being lonely. With children, they have needs, and more needs, one of which is to become more and more separated from their parents or caregivers. The disabled are likely as grumpy as we are (understandable, since we are all disabled) and are in need of constant care. So you'd be locked down with this irritable person who is angry at the world and their circumstances- basically another you! And if there is anyone in this world less likely to meet your needs socially it is your "evil twin." (sic)
I don't deny I have past & present sin/mistakes, but this is not all my fault, and the punishment far exceeds the crime while others are punished far less for far worse. Job never did anything wrong until he was self-righteous after being tested. I'm not blaming God, But you do blame God! It has come out in every line you write here. I'm sorry, but for me to lie about this, then I will answer for it at judgement! And it would be a disservice to you as well.
I admit some of it is from my past mistakes/sins, though I do blame others for many wrongs been & being done to me such as being abused, going through multiple foster placements, fluoridation, mass unemployment, housing crisis, etc etc etc (and not just bad things they done but good things they haven't done). Go back and read the post where I tell you just a SMALL danged part of what I go through. That was doctors who did this to me. Doctors! For a while I considered going to the hardware store, buying a good machete and sharpening it up. Then taking that and starting to carve on the worst of them until the police arrived. And I could have done it. I used to do full contact stick fighting with a bunch of crazed Arnisadores, so the doc would not have stood a chance. And the cops either if they got too close, because I could reliably disarm any firearm without endangering myself or any bystanders. I never wanted to kill, but I could put a hurt on them. But I still have to face God one day myself. In the end you want to know what I learned?
Forgiveness is not for those who have wronged me. It's about me not letting them bother me any more. About me taking control of my life and my emotions. About me letting go. Now until they come to me and ask my forgiveness in genuine remorse and repentance, I do not have to forgive them the fact they harmed me. But I do have to just let it go, give it to God then leave it with Him. That is a type of forgiveness. And that is not a one time thing, but a daily, even minute by minute occurrence at times. The good news is it gets easier, especially when you start to notice how nice it is not to carry all that anger. That and I haven't been shot, tasered, or arrested- always a plus!
I actually do pray for the docs now; that they will repent before God and stop doing harm to others. They don't even have to come to me- if God forgives them they are forgiven indeed, and I'll not go against that! And frankly, it would be a lot better for a lot of people if they would be more careful.
They say here that they are going to lessen the mental health restrictions on me in a few months. But everyone has still been refusing to fix the ringing sound problem, and as far as I know the fluoridation problem. They are not going to stop the fluoridation of public water supplies. The sheeple don't care, and they want it, so ... get a filter or just let it go, but you have to take responsibility for yourself here. Fluoride is bad, I agree. And here it's now mandated they put chlorine in our water as well! It stinks and tastes foul, and I can only imagine what it is doing to my gut (actually, I can feel what it's doing). But it's not going to do me one bit of good to get upset about it. The city will do it because they have to, the state is mandating it because they can. Me, I'm just dealing with it.
And none of the other problems are changed/fixed yet. And the oven element blew a couple of days ago adding more trouble. Well, that's the problem with keeping a list of things other people just have to do to make our life better (not that they shouldn't in some cases- I'm just talking about the list itself right now). But there will always be something else to add to the list, because life is just that way. And if you think about it, that element is something when you were healthy you'd have taken in stride and had it fixed before dinner. They aren't overly expensive, plug in and are held in place by clips. But- and I know this from experience- when our minds are so tied up with worries, hates and grudges, it emotionally drains us to the point we are just too locked up in our own heads to deal with small problems.
Seeing needs, having understanding, compassion, sympathy/empathy, caring, loving, etc seems to be a gift only some people like me have but many don't have. I've heard it said/claimed that women don't want a man to give solutions but to sympathise and agree it is difficult. Women- if you are looking to me to explain them critters to you, I'm afraid I'll have to greatly disappoint you! About all I say on them with any authority at all (and it ain't that much, authority-wise, believe me) is they are fun to hunt, better to trap, and hard as the devil to keep!
My position is I have given up trying and worrying about having faith since I have tried and I know I can't when suffering such constant daily ongoing wrongs. If God fixes the couple/few of worst things then I'll try again to follow the Way more fully. Your focus is all wrong! It's not about those wrongs being addressed by God; it's about how YOU address them. And you are still blaming God. If it's up to Him to fix them, and you set the parameters in which He must work, giving Him the tasks He must do like giving a contractor a list of things needing fixed before you sign off on His work, you are plainly saying it's His fault.
I will only be careful in the meantime not to do any sin or opposite-to-faith that will sabotage any answer. Its just simply that I can't have faith (believe he will stop the cruel wrongs) and love God when constantly daily suffering such mean cruel hell ongoing wrongs (and no positives). You are telling me you've already lost faith. I'd say that is pretty much "opposite-to-faith" right there.
I know it's hard. It's hard for me to write like this to you, not only because I don't want to anger you and cause you more grief, but because I am not feeling that close to God right now either. I am going through a rough patch myself, and I get really irritable. I've let loose a few strings of expletives, and feel like a hypocrite asking forgiveness and help. But I force myself to pray. Because another thing I've learned is it's not about my ability not to stumble, it's about His faithfulness to be there to pick me up after I get done with my tantrum (and sometimes that's the only way to describe what I'm doing).
(Sorry if its not quite end of sabbath. I don't really get to rest on sabbath in my situation.) I asked 2 rabbis from different Messianic associations and 2 very different approaches to all this about posting here on Shabbat. Both told me it was ok. This is like our community when we have no one else, and as one rabbi put it, "Messianism/Judaism is not an individual sport." Some sense of community is important. And that is kind of what I was thinking, so unless someone can show me where Torah says "Thou shalt refrain from posting on Shabbat," I will keep doing what I do. And you can too, because one of those Rabbi's was head of the synagogue that sponsors this forum. You're always welcome, even on Shabbat.
I sincerely hope this helps. It was pretty straight forward, and I have been told I can be harsh. If I was, I apologize. All I ask is you consider this in the spirit it was given: not judgmental, because I go through this too, and at times it is hard not to respond exactly as you do. There was a time I did just that, but that takes me to a very dark place where I don't want to be. But I did try to use good judgement and give you the benefit of many years hard experience. I hope it helps.
Dan C
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Post by mosheli on Dec 5, 2020 22:52:14 GMT -8
Thanks Alon.
I'm sorry to hear you also been going through some rough.
I wish I knew something that could help or could help by praying but I don't even know what the answer is for my own and finding it hard to pray for anyone with faith with these constant daily ongoing wrongs.
I wrote some comments on a few bits of your reply but I'm not posting them because I see that its just only me answering some points, but we should be trying to find the answer(s) for both of us.
Though I'm not sure what the answer is. I said in a previous post that maybe Yeshua/Jesus is the answer. I really believe/think there must be an answer, its not right the suffer such bad things for the whole of life. I'm not one for accepting injust wrongs. Yes God may not do everything we want, and we may have some trials, but he is also supposed to be just and gracious/merciful and compassionate etc and answer needs.
What would/did Yeshua say/do?
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Post by alon on Dec 6, 2020 1:16:38 GMT -8
That's a pretty astute question. I went to the source, and asked God for guidance (I prayed). Psalm 22 came to my attention, but there were a couple of things I wasn't sure of. So I went to my JPS TNK and looked at their commentary. It was every bit as astute as your question, so I read it all! I was just going to quote a few lines from it, but after that, I think I'll give you the whole Psalm in blue, the JPS notes (abbreviated) in green, and any of my comments in black (shouldn't be too many of those though).
Psalm 22 (NASB) A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise.
For the music director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.
The Psalmist opens with a plea from a person in dire straights, apparently a serious illness.
His enemies also surround him.
22 My God, my God, why have You forsaken [abandoned] me?
Divine abandonment is a major theme of the Psalter.
And this line should be very familiar to us (Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34
Far from my help are the words of my groaning.
2 My God, I cry out by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
The Hebrew may also (or alternatively) mean that prayers form the throne upon which God sits- a metaphor stressing the importance of prayer.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You rescued them.
5 To You they cried out and they fled to safety;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
God helped his ancestors, why wasn't He helping David?
6 But I am a worm and not a person,
A disgrace of mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me deride me;
They [g]sneer, they shake their heads, saying,
8 “Turn him over to the Lord; let Him save him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
David feels less than human. He is scorned by those who think God will not help him.
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open their mouths wide at me,
As a ravening and roaring lion.
He hopes that God, who was with him from birth will not abandon him now.
Even David had doubts at times. And no wonder; sick unto death (read further), his enemies surround him and no one else will help, choosing instead to mock and delight in his troubles.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery,
And my tongue clings to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And they cast lots for my clothing.
A graphic description of mortal illness. He feels his body shutting down. The scorners gloat at his death and are eager to take his possessions.
As prophecy this should all be very familiar to us also. Ref Is 53, where ha'moshiach will be beaten to the point of barely recognizable as human; the bones of His back and sides laid bare by the scourge.
19 But You, Lord, do not be far away;
You who are my help, hurry to my assistance.
20 Save my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
Yet at his lowest point, he calls (again) on God to save him.
22 I will proclaim Your name to my brothers;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
David's faith, his trust in God that eventually he would be saved!
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
"You who fear the Lord": YHVH fearers (God Fearers) is a term that appears elsewhere in the Psalms (and in Acts); sometimes generally meaning all who worship the God of Israel, and others proselytes.
You and I are proselytes to Messianic Judaism; and Christians might also be classified as God Fearers.
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor scorned the suffering of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
His recovery would be a reason for great rejoicing and praises to God.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
May your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will kneel before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 A posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
Prophetic of the time when the nations (goyim, Gentiles) would come to worship the God of Israel; the entire world would stand in awe of this mighty God who could save His servant from such a time. God's power to deliver would be told to future generations.
Stepping away from the passage now, the problem with people is we tend not to believe what we are told of long ago events. But God will in the end times show His power so that none has an excuse. One way is like Job, many must suffer much and still remain faithful. Others will again be killed for His Name, and will go with His praises on their lips. It is my hope that many of us who have suffered so much for so long will be miraculously healed as a witness to Him. Yet my guess is if that happens the same beast that fluoridated our water will come quickly for us to force us to change our testimony, or die. But if I do not have the faith to endure now, how will I have the faith to meet and overcome the beast, choosing to die instead of enjoy this newfound health? I've no idea what I will be called on to endure, whether I will be healed in this lifetime. And I may never in this life know why you and I suffer and evil men play in the sun. To know that would be to know the mind of God, and I make no claim to that. I do however know Yeshua did not mince words when He said "Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy” (John 16:22) He was speaking of His own suffering and execution and their grief and fear which caused them to scatter. Possibly to the trials and brutal deaths they would face as well. But He made a promise, that they who were faithful to Him to the end would see a time of rejoicing no one can take away.
Dan C
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Post by mosheli on Dec 6, 2020 22:25:11 GMT -8
Thanks for that and the time and effort Alon/Dan. I'll have to ponder on it as it is abit different to what I have been thinking the last 24 hours.
I'll just post these thoughts I've had in the last 24 hours.
The way I see it is that it is not the Father's will for us to be suffering such huge wrongs for life. But then the question is why am I not getting any answer? I'm not doing anything majorly wrong, and there isn't anything major I am not doing that I should and can do on my part. The only reasons I can think of are either not having faith without wavering (James 1) and not keeping mouth from speaking negative, and/or not having grace, and/or maybe not forgiving, or maybe not really died and buried and raised with him? But others in the bible didn't have to have such superhuman faith (and amidst such ongiong constant daily mean cruel wrongs), though they did have to have some. But if I assume that it is because I don't have enough faith. Well then why am I not able to have faith? How can I have stronger faith? What will help me have better faith? What or who exactly am I having faith in?
A few years ago I once had an experience where I sort-of like spiritually touched Yeshua/Jesus. When this happened it was like I felt him and I saw myself and everyone through his eyes as he sees us/them (as we really are), and I saw how so many people are without him (in fullness), and then I heard the words "and you will be one as we are one".
I don't know for sure that that experience was really what I think, maybe it could have just been a fake emotional/mental and/or monistic/pantheistic/globalistic experience, but it does seem right.
When we are One with him (not imitate/copy) or when we touch him we feel and see as he does (including his love), and when we are one with him we are then also one with each other through him. Also, we can't make ourselves like the bible/word/law, but we are made like the bible through being one with him (and identifiying with his sacrifice, like Abel did).
Anyway my point is maybe we are missing out on the fullness of being one with Yeshua/Jesus? Sure we will have some trials and tribulation and persecution, but maybe we don't have to be suffering such bad things for life, or we should at least also have some comfort and consolation. And its not just the things we are suffering but the missing out on the fullness of being one with him and being one with each other through him.
Yeshua/Jesus didn't just die but also suffered stripes etc for us to be healed/delivered.
Didn't Yeshua/Jesus suffer those stripes etc so that we could be healed etc?
Wasn't Yeshua great in deeds/works not just teaching?
If Yeshua/Jesus was here would he heal/answer? Didn't he have compassion?
Isn't the Father's will for us to be well not sick? (Eg Yeshua said "I must do my Father's will/works.)
Isn't God also loving and merciful and gracious and compassionate and just?
Doesn't the bible say we have comfort/consolation not just tribulation/persecution?
Doesn't one verse say I wish you will propser and be in good health?
Didn't David have 12 wives and was a king etc not just suffered?
Doesn't Daniel and Revelation 11 make it clear that the temple has to have been rebuilt by chapter 11 when the beast overcomes the saints, and it hasn't been yet? (though the harlot is also associated with the blood of the saints and martyrs in the meantime).
Might we be missing out on the fulness of being one with Yeshua/Jesus and one with each other through being one with him?
Mightn't the devil have tricked us into thinking we have to accept suffering some things that maybe we don't/shouldn't have to?
But maybe I am wrong, since I still haven't yet had an answer (as far as I can see so far). I'm only a gentile convert and a not an all/always very good person and I don't pretend to know better than Jewish messianics and rabbis who know better than me, and I know I have plenty to learn. I think its hard that many in the Old Testament didn't suffer but many in AD do suffer, and that some don't suffer, and some like Smyrna do suffer. I shudder thinking of the christians feed to the lions by Romans.
You don't have to reply to all that. Just thought some may be of interest for both of us.
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Post by alon on Dec 7, 2020 1:20:25 GMT -8
The way I see it is that it is not the Father's will for us to be suffering such huge wrongs for life. But then the question is why am I not getting any answer? I'm not doing anything majorly wrong, and there isn't anything major I am not doing that I should and can do on my part. The only reasons I can think of are either not having faith without wavering (James 1) and not keeping mouth from speaking negative, and/or not having grace, and/or maybe not forgiving, or maybe not really died and buried and raised with him? But others in the bible didn't have to have such superhuman faith (and amidst such ongiong constant daily mean cruel wrongs), though they did have to have some. But if I assume that it is because I don't have enough faith. Well then why am I not able to have faith? How can I have stronger faith? What will help me have better faith? What or who exactly am I having faith in? He allows suffering for His own purposes at times. However all the suffering we face is because we live in a fallen world, not because God wanted it this way. And yo are still trying to assign blame, though at least you’ve moved from Got to you. But that won’t be very productive either; trust me on that one.
And i wouldn’t say no biblical figures suffered ongoing, insufferable wrongs. I can think of several, but to name just a few: Job, obviously. And David as we just saw. And before you dismiss that as a temporary thing, his having to run from Saul, hiding in caves in the wilderness, hot then cold, tired and hungry for years had to have sapped his physical and emotional reserves. Just as our chronic illness does to us. So this sickness was no small thing to deal with, and it too had apparently been going on for a while. So Davids faith had to have been sorely tested.
Then there’s Mephibosheth (2 Sam 4 & 9), which loosely translated means “nobody.” He lived in Lo’Debar, which literally means “of no value.” Talk about getting slammed with prophetic names! He was the only remaining grandson of Saul. He was crippled in both feet from a fall at age 5, so he could remember what it was like to be healthy, but that was taken away very early on. And in those days it would not have been easy not having full use of one’s body parts. But in a picture of the redemption we will see one day when called to the wedding feast with Yeshua, David years later honored him and gave him a seat at the kings table. That is the prize; that’s why we persevere:2 Corinthians 4:17 (ESV) For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,
A few years ago I once had an experience where I sort-of like spiritually touched Yeshua/Jesus. When this happened it was like I felt him and I saw myself and everyone through his eyes as he sees us/them (as we really are), and I saw how so many people are without him (in fullness), and then I heard the words "and you will be one as we are one". I don't know for sure that that experience was really what I think, maybe it could have just been a fake emotional/mental and/or monistic/pantheistic/globalistic experience, but it does seem right. When we are One with him (not imitate/copy) or when we touch him we feel and see as he does (including his love), and when we are one with him we are then also one with each other through him. Also, we can't make ourselves like the bible/word/law, but we are made like the bible through being one with him (and identifiying with his sacrifice, like Abel did). Anyway my point is maybe we are missing out on the fullness of being one with Yeshua/Jesus? Sure we will have some trials and tribulation and persecution, but maybe we don't have to be suffering such bad things for life, or we should at least also have some comfort and consolation. And its not just the things we are suffering but the missing out on the fullness of being one with him and being one with each other through him. I do not know what you experienced. But if it was from God, He does that to edify us; to prepare us. You mentioned several New Age teachings there. I can’t say about your experience, but these teachings have permeated Christianity today. And we all have some holdover from that time as Christians; or even if saved into Messianism and never went to church our culture is inundated with this stuff. So it is probably clouding your perception of the message. Our love, true love should not be dependent on our circumstances.
Yeshua/Jesus didn't just die but also suffered stripes etc for us to be healed/delivered. 2 Corinthians 1:4-5 (ESV) who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. [For as the sufferings of Christ abound for us, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.]
It says He will comfort us, not that He’ll make everything right in this world. And the healing that He came for was spiritual. He died for our sins, not our health:
1 Peter 2:24 (ESV) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
Didn't Yeshua/Jesus suffer those stripes etc so that we could be healed etc? Colossians 2:13-14 (ESV) And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
He suffered those stripes that you might have the chance for salvation.
Wasn't Yeshua great in deeds/works not just teaching? If Yeshua/Jesus was here would he heal/answer? Didn't he have compassion? Isn't the Father's will for us to be well not sick? (Eg Yeshua said "I must do my Father's will/works.) Isn't God also loving and merciful and gracious and compassionate and just? Doesn't the bible say we have comfort/consolation not just tribulation/persecution? Doesn't one verse say I wish you will propser and be in good health? Didn't David have 12 wives and was a king etc not just suffered? Doesn't Daniel and Revelation 11 make it clear that the temple has to have been rebuilt by chapter 11 when the beast overcomes the saints, and it hasn't been yet? (though the harlot is also associated with the blood of the saints and martyrs in the meantime). Might we be missing out on the fulness of being one with Yeshua/Jesus and one with each other through being one with him? Mightn't the devil have tricked us into thinking we have to accept suffering some things that maybe we don't/shouldn't have to? Believe me, I understand the yearning evident in those reasonings. And yeah, we are definitely missing out! On life, relationships, and everything else. It can seem like (and is really) one struggle after another, with very little respite. But it was Yeshua, not ha’satan that warned we would suffer. Ha’satan wants us to think that as believers we will be fat and happy all our days. That way we will question God when trials come.
But maybe I am wrong, since I still haven't yet had an answer (as far as I can see so far). I'm only a gentile convert and a not an all/always very good person and I don't pretend to know better than Jewish messianics and rabbis who know better than me, and I know I have plenty to learn. I think its hard that many in the Old Testament didn't suffer but many in AD do suffer, and that some don't suffer, and some like Smyrna do suffer. I shudder thinking of the christians feed to the lions by Romans. Mephibosheth was a nobody, from a place of no value. But he eventually dined at the kings table! You and I may be nobodies in our own minds. I can’t count the number of times each day I am angry with myself for being so worthless. (One of the things I am trying to work on- as if I didn’t have enough problems!) And I don’t live in the best neighborhood (though it’s far from the worst now my hillbilly neighbors have settled down). But one day, I will dine with you at the King’s table! We are not nobody to our Moshiach, our goel. He died so we could be there with Him, if we persevere.
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Post by mosheli on Dec 7, 2020 19:27:57 GMT -8
There are several things I don't agree with or question (not to the extent of being outside the same faith though), though I could be wrong about them, but I don't think it will serve any good me prolonging disputing/arguing. I will only pick just one bit to comment on.
"Our love, true love should not be dependent on our circumstances."
What should it be based on? The nature/love of God/the Father? The nature/love of Yeshua? How can I love him if he doesn't love me? If he loves me why does he allow such mean and cruel constant daily wrongs for so very long? If he only showed his love in Yeshua's sacrifice 2000 yrs ago but it doesn't have any positive here and now except spiritual salvation for afterlife...? And what about faith not just love? What is that based on?
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Post by alon on Dec 7, 2020 21:11:15 GMT -8
"Our love, true love should not be dependent on our circumstances." What should it be based on? The nature/love of God/the Father? The nature/love of Yeshua? How can I love him if he doesn't love me? If he loves me why does he allow such mean and cruel constant daily wrongs for so very long? If he only showed his love in Yeshua's sacrifice 2000 yrs ago but it doesn't have any positive here and now except spiritual salvation for afterlife...? And what about faith not just love? What is that based on?
James 2:5 (ESV) Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
1 Corinthians 2:9 (ESV) But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—We base our love for God (and Yeshua is God/God is One) on the fact that the same God who created the vastness of the universe, and who holds every atom and molecule in that universe together by His will (Hebrews 1:3) has created us and deemed us worthy that we should have a share in that universe with Him in eternity!But you are still focused on all the wrongs done to you by others and by God. I don’t know what else to tell you that I haven’t said about that. However you will not find peace, even if He healed you this instant you wouldn’t have that shalom unless you stop looking inward and start looking upward. Look around you. If good health is all it took to make people happy, then why are there so many healthy but unhappy people out there? Why does no one take care of those problems? Why don’t they care? Happy people do their jobs; they come home and help the less fortunate. I’m not even going to ask if you see them doing that, because you’ve told me they don’t! Why are they so unhappy they are either callous or even vindictive and hurtful to you in your distress … because that is what unhappy people are like; it’s what they do!
Saul was king. He had it ALL! Anointed by God, the wealth of the nation at his disposal, servants, wives and concubines. But that didn’t make him happy. In fact, he was so unhappy he was jealous of David and alternately honored him and tried to kill him. Get your focus off yourself. Pray for guidance and discernment. Go back and reread this entire thread. Otherwise you may end up insane, because trust me, there will always be some form of persecution in this life. And as far as health issues caused by chemicals in our food and water, fluoride is one of the least of our problems. And that is where a lot of these illnesses, conditions, and diseases come from these days. Things that were unheard of when I was growing up are commonplace today. Our faith is based on trust; the kind of trust that sees us through these trials instead of them destroying us. In fact, wherever you see the word faith in your Bible, you can often substitute trust and be more accurate. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6 ESV) Doesn’t say He’ll make life easy for you, just that He will make straight your path. Isaiah 41:10 (ESV) fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
We are not strengthened by good times, but by bad.I could go on, but honestly, you don’t want to hear it. And I understand that much better than I’d like to. I’ve been there, and I’ve been into the pit; so angry at God that without meds or drugs I suddenly saw everything like a bad color negative. I was enraged to the point my brain chemistry must have been wild off the charts, just from my emotional state. That’s not easy to admit, but I am telling you right now that is where you are headed! I recognize the road! And you think it’s bad now, you will not like that place! But had I not been there I might not have the fierce determination not to go back. To trust God no matter how bad this gets. I think that is what is meant here:1 Corinthians 5:5 (ESV) you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
It certainly worked on me!
Look, we are at the point I am just answering the same arguments I already answered. And frankly, I've told you more about myself than I am comfortable sharing. But God puts these things on us for a reason, and if by sharing I've helped you or someone else, I am happy to do so. But we are at the place now you need to make a decision as to which way you go. I urge you to trust God, but I understand the decision to blame Him and be angry with the world. It's a really stupid one, but we are really stupid creatures when all is said and done. Well, I was anyhow. I hope you are not, and that you learn from my mistakes and choose the right path. If so, I'll be glad to share some of the things I've done to work through it. But love is not an emotion, it's a choice. Emotions are fickle, feelings fade or change. Choices and the determination to see them through remain constant. Choose to love God, no matter what. Trust in Him, even unto death. Heck-fire, I have DNR orders in place, but He hasn't taken me up on that yet either. But for now I live in hope, trusting Him the best I can, asking and receiving forgiveness when that trust falters. And I gotta say, this is a much better place to live!
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- there are 70 faces to 
