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Post by mystic on Sept 3, 2020 3:19:52 GMT -8
Reading Romans now trying to focus on Paul's teachings since most Christians put their stock in his teachings, seems to me Romans 2 pretty much covers this topic so I am now even more confused as to why any Christian would think or say there will be no consequences for Sin under Grace? www.biblestudytools.com/romans/2.html |
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Post by alon on Sept 3, 2020 5:43:57 GMT -8
Reading Romans now trying to focus on Paul's teachings since most Christians put their stock in his teachings, seems to me Romans 2 pretty much covers this topic so I am now even more confused as to why any Christian would think or say there will be no consequences for Sin under Grace? www.biblestudytools.com/romans/2.html
They say they are not under the law any more, so if they continue to sin they perish withou the law. It is them Jews that have to keep the law perfectly who will perish and be judged by the law. Can you see the anti-Semitic double standard here? The Jews are all going to die, so we won't have to put up with them in "heaven."
What this is actually saying of course is that all who perish without knowing of Torah will be judged to the light (law) they were given. But those who did know of Torah and refused it will be judged according to Torah. And I have a few translations of the Bible on my shelf, and they all contain Torah- so if they sin, they are sinning under Torah just as much as the Jew they so despise!
Not that all Christians today despise the Jews. They don't. However the church fathers who spawned this doctrine certainly did, and the church in their infinite capacity to compartmentalize has not overcome this thinking. Anti-Semitism runs deep in church theology, and so in the minds of Christians and many of us who have come out of the church. Often we don't even recognize it, it is so ingrained, so "normal."
To be "under the law" is a Hebrew euphemism for being under the curse of the law, which is death. Sin under the law, you will be judged and sentenced under the law, and that places you squarely under the curse of the law. That is why it is so important to repent of laws you've violated, even unintentionally in a timely manner. So the next question is "How do I repent for something I don't even know I did?" Simple- apologize for anything you've unknowingly done and ask to be shown those things and helped to overcome them. Then when shown, repent, make amends if necessary, and move on.
Dn C |
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Post by mystic on Sept 4, 2020 3:58:18 GMT -8
I don't understand, since the New Covenant is for the law to be written in our hearts, doesn't that mean that we are still and will always be under the law?
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Post by alon on Sept 4, 2020 8:50:47 GMT -8
I don't understand, since the New Covenant is for the law to be written in our hearts, doesn't that mean that we are still and will always be under the law?
Christians choose to interpret this as "I just know in my heart what is right and what is wrong." This is the original sin. Ha'satan decided he would be his own law, and he rebelled. Adam and Chavah sinned when they ate of the forbidden fruit, but before that the serpent convinced Chavah: "God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Gen 3:5) In other words, she could be her own god, deciding for herself what is good and what is evil, right and wrong. She could in effect just follow her own heart, and that was the first sin of mankind. Many say pride was the first sin, but I see pride and self interest as the motivation. Sin implies action, and in this case the act was the decision to give in to their pride; to follow their own heart.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Sept 5, 2020 5:17:28 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Sept 5, 2020 9:05:04 GMT -8
Read them in context. I'll do a couple for you, then you can do the rest. Let us know what you find.
Acts 15:1,5 (ESV) But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ... But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
This is the subject for the entire chapter- that some were saying they had to be fully converted to Judaism in order to be saved.
Acts 15:10 (ESV) Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Jewish children learn as they are raised. Ruth and Rahab both were saved, joined Israel then learned Torah and the customs as they were with the Jewish people. We here advise everyone to go slow, learn steadily as you go. No one does this all at once. THAT is the yoke neither they nor their fathers could bear. Salvation comes first, and with it acceptance into the assembly. Then:
Acts 15:21 (ESV) For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
They learn every week as Torah is read in the synagogue. They learn as they are mentored by members of the assembly. They learn (today) as they read scriptures with Hebraic eyes, just as we are doing now.
Romans 3:20 (ESV) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
You don't even have to read this in context. That was always the intent of Torah, and every Jew knew it. But that in no way means we can now just dispose of it as we want. BUT (gotta luv them buts') let's look at the previous verse, just for fun:
Romans 3:19 (ESV) Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Recall that to be under the law is a euphemism for being under the curse of the law, outside God's grace and condemned to death. He is saying no one who violates Torah willingly has any excuse. However in vs 20 he says that obedience alone will not save you. That faction which had sprung up was teaching a doctrine of salvation by works. Eph 2:9 says "not by works, so that no one can boast." The proper order is salvation by grace through faith alone. Then out of love we learn and obey the mitzvoth. And not the list of 613 the Rabbis (who are heavily influenced by this faction) gave us. But what we find in scripture.
And again, we have the stories of Rahab and Ruth, two women whose stories every Messianic should be well acquainted with. Ruth had been married to a Jew, so when she made her decision to join Israel and was saved she had some idea what she was agreeing to. But all Rahab knew was the God of the Hebrews had proven Himself to be the supreme and most powerful God. She decided this was the God she wanted to serve, saved the spies and thus joined Israel and was saved. She then had to learn from scratch what it even meant to serve this God. But she was taught, then married and both these previously Gentile women were in the lineage of the Messiah. But the decission to accept the God of the Hebrews and be saved came first, then the learning and obedience. No one just gets zapped and knows and does it all!
Paul probably came closest to that happening as he was struck blind and spoke directly to Yeshua at his conversion. But all he had to be convinced of was that Yeshua was the Messiah. He was a Rabbi, and a very learned one at that. He knew everything about Judaism as it was in the 1st cen. And he never gave any of that up, except he switched from persecuting believers to championing their cause and teaching the word. His teachings even became part of the word. And he didn't have to attend Bible College or Seminary to do it. He already knew- he was a Jew.
See what you can do with the rest of Romans and get back to us. We'll discuss it. Feel free to add to what I said or ask questions if you have any. If you are having trouble with a particular verse, ask and we can help. But if you are arguing these points with someone, you need to internalize the answers. And the best way to do that is to study them yourself, then discuss them.
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
