Which is the greater sin for this friend?

[alon]

Aug 7, 2020 12:28:46 GMT -8 mystic said:

Also I would like to explore this part of scripture Matthew 16:24

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory,
and then he will repay each according to his conduct.
Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here
who will not taste death
until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”:

First 2 lines, what does that mean please?

Context:

Matthew 16:24-28 (ESV) 24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

He is talking about His 2nd coming and the judgement:

Daniel 12:2 (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[mystic]

Those are great scriptures Dan, thanks.

I am having a major problem with this which he wrote:

If someone has confessed, repented, and turned away from sin, it is totally forgiven and when God looks at us He sees only the righteousness of His Son, Jesus Christ. Blessings can come out of even the worst situations:

That is suggesting to me that it will be ok for my bud the divorcee instead of him obeying the commands to live the rest of his life alone, he can willfully break God's command and marry the woman then repent and they both shall live guilt free being totally forgiven? I don't buy that as God if anything has always shown himself to be a disciplinarian.

[alon]

Aug 8, 2020 4:14:42 GMT -8 mystic said:

Those are great scriptures Dan, thanks.

I am having a major problem with this which he wrote:

If someone has confessed, repented, and turned away from sin, it is totally forgiven and when God looks at us He sees only the righteousness of His Son, Jesus Christ. Blessings can come out of even the worst situations:

That is suggesting to me that it will be ok for my bud the divorcee instead of him obeying the commands to live the rest of his life alone, he can willfully break God's command and marry the woman then repent and they both shall live guilt free being totally forgiven? I don't buy that as God if anything has always shown himself to be a disciplinarian.

That statement by itself is true. Probably not quite as the SDA's meant it, but true nonetheless.

Other than that what you say has a lot of merit as well. However like I said, I am not a rabbi, and I'm not comfortable telling someone they must spend the rest of their life alone. They probably won't listen to that advice anyhow, but it may cause them to say "I can't keep the commands anyhow, so might as well just fall away." On the other hand, I wouldn't want to tell them it is ok to live in sin either. So I'll defer this one to someone who knows more than me.

I will say if someone purposes in their heart to sin, their subsequent repentance would be suspect.

Dan C

[mystic]

In response to my question above, I got this reply below from the SDA but this pretty much answers my question:

Grace covers over all of our weaknesses, flaws, mistakes, but most importantly all of our sins - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That is, if we, once again, turn away from sin, confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness. However, there isn't any place in the Bible where we are told that we won't suffer the consequences of sin, even when we repent.

The Bible tells us that "though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" (Isa. 1:18 NKJV). This is, of course, if someone turns away from sin, confesses, repents, and asks for forgiveness. The Bible also tells us that "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Matt. 12:31 NKJV). In addition, the Bible tells us that "grace covers a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8). Grace covers over all of our weaknesses, flaws, mistakes, but most importantly all of our sins - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That is, if we, once again, turn away from sin, confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness. However, there isn't any place in the Bible where we are told that we won't suffer the consequences of sin, even when we repent.

I've inserted below a Bible commentary on the subject:

It's important to understand that, when the believer in Christ experiences consequences for sin, it is not because he is under God's condemnation (Romans 8:1), His wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), or His retribution (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Believers are under God's grace (Romans 6:15). Jesus took the wrath of God upon Himself (Isaiah 53:10). Sin's consequences still experienced by believers could be classified in one of these ways:

Universal consequences. Some of sin's consequences are experienced perpetually by every human being on earth, because we are all children of Adam. We all have weeds growing in our gardens, we all face natural disasters, we all get sick and grow old, and we all eventually die physically (Romans 5:12). As sinners living in a sinful world, there's no avoiding these consequences.

Natural consequences. We live in a world of cause and effect, where the law of sowing and reaping is in full effect. Some of sin's consequences are built-in and practically guaranteed, no matter if the sinner is saved or unsaved. The Bible warns that sexual immorality is a sin committed against one's own body (1 Corinthians 6:18). "Can a man scoop fire into his lap without his clothes being burned?" (Proverbs 6:27). If you steal something, you should expect to get caught and face the natural consequences that follow the sin of theft. If you resist arrest when you get caught, you pile on more consequences. Sowing and reaping.

Instructional consequences. Very likely, God allows some of sin's consequences to remain in our lives to teach us the heinous nature of sin and to remind us to depend upon God's grace. Sin is a serious enough problem for God to have sent His Son into the world to die. We dare not take sin lightly. In the face of sin's consequences, we humble ourselves and seek God's kingdom and righteousness all the more (see Matthew 6:33). When Ananias and Sapphira were disciplined for their sin, it was instructive for the church: "Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events" (Acts 5:11). See also 1 Corinthians 5:5 and 1 Timothy 1:20.

Disciplinary consequences. Some of sin's consequences are the result of God's treating us as a father should his children. There's a difference between a penalty for sin and discipline for sin. As God's children, we experience discipline designed to guide us back to the right path. "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son" (Hebrews 12:5-6; cf. Proverbs 3:11-12). Note how many of God's children undergo discipline: "everyone" (Hebrews 12:8). We are all wayward at times. God's purpose in allowing us to experience disciplinary consequences of sin, true to His nature, is perfect: "God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness" (Hebrews 12:10).

The church of Corinth provides an example of Christians facing the disciplinary consequences of their sin: in partaking of the Lord's Table in an unworthy manner, they brought God's displeasure: "That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30). We see similar disciplinary action taken in 2 Samuel 12. Even after David confessed his sin and was forgiven, God allowed certain consequences to befall David and his household (verses 11-14).

God allows us to experience some of the temporal consequences of sin to show His love for us. If God never disciplined His straying children, He would not be a good Father. If we were never disciplined or never suffered the consequences for our wrong action, we would never learn right from wrong. We tend to learn from our mistakes more readily than we learn from our successes.

Praise the Lord for His goodness. He allows us to experience the temporal consequences of sin (for our own good). But He has saved us from the eternal consequences of sin. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins so we will never experience the second death, which is the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14). Believers in Christ are promised that the curse and consequences of sin will be completely removed one day, and "nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain" (Isaiah 11:9, NLT).


The excerpt that I sent you about divorce was from a statement by Pastor Doug. I've inserted it again below:

Matthew 5:31, 32 demonstrates that adultery annuls the marriage covenant, and the innocent party would be free to remarry. Divorce on other grounds is a sin, although 1 Corinthians 7:10-15 does indicate that if an unbelieving spouse leaves and no reconciliation is possible, the believer is free to remarry.

We should remember that although remarriage is a sin, it is not the unpardonable sin. Our past may be very scrambled, but God takes us where we are at and helps us to build a future that will glorify Him.

[alon]

Pretty much boiler plate stuff. However this time in his opening remarks, he seems to agree with me:

Aug 8, 2020 12:19:15 GMT -7 mystic said:
In response to my question above, I got this reply below from the SDA but this pretty much answers my question:

Grace covers over all of our weaknesses, flaws, mistakes, but most importantly all of our sins - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That is, if we, once again, turn away from sin, confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness. However, there isn't any place in the Bible where we are told that we won't suffer the consequences of sin, even when we repent.

So as I said, grace is conditional, indicated by his use of the term if. IF we repent once again. This condition is in addition to the special consequences of sin.

Dan C

[mystic]

I am confused on how does The wages of sin is death apply bring under Grace?

[alon]

Aug 9, 2020 4:28:32 GMT -8 mystic said:

I am confused on how does The wages of sin is death apply bring under Grace?

Grace is UNMERITED favor, not UNLIMITED favor. They are correct, Yeshua died for our sins, and they were covered when we accepted Him as our Savior. At that time we repented and began our walk with Him. We no longer were condemned by the law, because He paid the price for our sins. However to say that Yeshua died so we could go on sinning with impunity is both foolish and unbiblical:

Romans 6:1-2 (ESV) What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

The wages of sin is death, Yeshua paid the price, we accepted His offer and He being God showed us grace in covering those sins. But that grace does not extend to covering our willful continued sinfulness. It will cover those sins if we genuinely repent of them, however if we just keep doing them over and over that is not genuine repentance, it is trying to take advantage of God's grace to sin. Since when was God an excuse to sin more? When did He say sin was OK? When in all of scripture did He say His grace was license for us to keep on sinning? That is a part of some Christian's doctrine that is both foolish and dangerous.

Grace covers a contrite and repentant heart, not a hardened heart that says "I want your gift, AND my sin!" Those sins are not covered by grace, and the sinner will die for them.

Dan C

 

[mystic]

Dan, you hit the nail on the head with at least the Sister for I have always told her she likes to have her cake and eat it too.

So I think the bud is back living with the woman. The sister had said she had prayed for this and God answered. I told her this cannot be God's doing as God does not bring people together to break his commandments, is there any chance that she might be correct and I may be wrong?

[alon]

Aug 10, 2020 3:12:06 GMT -8 mystic said:

... , is there any chance that she might be correct and I may be wrong?

Nope, not a chance in heaven, hell, or on this earth! I think you nailed it yourself!

Dan C

[mystic]

This is what I believe the average Christian puts their Fatih in.

Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Mr. Womack said all sins are forgiven and only consequence is we will let the devil into our lives if we live in sin. So he too it seems does not believe we will be accountable to God for our sins.

[mystic]

Also he is saying:

Roman 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

[alon]

Aug 14, 2020 4:51:48 GMT -8 mystic said:

Also he is saying:

Roman 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

When we say read everything in context, that goes double, even tripple for Paul! Christians love quoting Paul, because it is so easy to take him out of context and "prove" almost anything they want. So Rom 5:13 just in the context of the verses just before and after it:

Romans 5:12-14 (ESV) 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 

So, if where there is no law there is no sin counted, and if Adam sinned and it was counted against all mankind, there must have been a law in place! In fact, the Oral Law was started in the Garden and carried forward in every generation until now. We have the written Torah, so we are responsible for that and it cannot be changed. However we also have the Oral Tradition which does change, and which makes the written Torah applicable to all men everywhere. Not the one in the Talmud, that is a rabbinic interpretation. It is pretty good for some things, not for others. We also have the NT which, if read properly explains Torah better. But never take Christian doctrine at face value. It more often than not is wrong. Always read in context and think for yourself- unless it is Paul. Then always-always-ALWAYS read in context and THINK! Because if they are quoting Paul to make a point, you can almost bet the farm they are preaching some heresy of the church fathers.

Dan (3X up the ante on Paul)  C

[mystic]

Aug 14, 2020 7:30:31 GMT -8 alon said:

When we say read everything in context, that goes double, even tripple for Paul! Christians love quoting Paul, because it is so easy to take him out of context and "prove" almost anything they want. Then always-always-ALWAYS read in context and THINK! Because if they are quoting Paul to make a point, you can almost bet the farm they are preaching some heresy of the church fathers.

Dan (3X up the ante on Paul)  C

Yes, the bud's sister is a staunch admirer of Paul. There were quite a few times even though I had shown her where Paul supported Jesus's words looks like she still refused to believe.

My opinion is why pay attention to Paul's words in the first place for isn't Christ the one whose words they should be following but noooooo because Christ teachings and commands are about God's commands.

Most Christians don't want to pay attention to the Bible as they see it as relating only to the Jews of that time so they put all of their faith in the NT and Christ but yet they don't want to obey Christ's teachings and commandments so they settle for Paul's words and teachings which they also twist to suit their own agendas. That is the bottom line for them based on my experience with them.

[alon]

Aug 15, 2020 4:13:12 GMT -8 mystic said:

Yes, the bud's sister is a staunch admirer of Paul. There were quite a few times even though I had shown her where Paul supported Jesus's words looks like she still refused to believe.

My opinion is why pay attention to Paul's words in the first place for isn't Christ the one whose words they should be following but noooooo because Christ teachings and commands are about God's commands.

Most Christians don't want to pay attention to the Bible as they see it as relating only to the Jews of that time so they put all of their faith in the NT and Christ but yet they don't want to obey Christ's teachings and commandments so they settle for Paul's words and teachings which they also twist to suit their own agendas. That is the bottom line for them based on my experience with them.

Paul was the most prolific writer in the NT, and an important figure in the early sect of the Notsarim. But as you say his words have been twisted, mistranslated, and even changed. However the truth is still there. But to understand him we must take everything he writes in context with not only the passage we are reading (and a LOT can be cleared up just doing that), but with everything he writes. We must also consider who he is writing or speaking to. And we must take it in context with all scripture, especially Torah. Nothing in God's word can contradict any other part, and older writings take precedence over newer, with Torah being our base. And you are correct, nothing Paul says can contradict what Yeshua says. But even the words of Yeshua must be taken in account with Torah, because He never contradicted HIS own Torah! He only explained it better.

It doesn't sound as if your friends there will accept any of this, preferring instead to delude themselves, selectively taking verses out of context and building their own (or their church's) theology on those. As Samuel Clements famously said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. You'll waste your time and annoy the pig." If they don't want to hear the truth, they won't, no matter how much you tell them.

Dan C 

[mystic]

Aug 15, 2020 13:28:39 GMT -8 alon said:

Dan C 

You sometimes have a much better way of explaining my thoughts and words than I do Dan. The above statement in bold is what I have been trying to put into words for a long time now, thanks! Those words will be the ammo I will use next time any Christian says anything contradictory to me using any of Paul's writings!!!