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Post by mystic on Jul 31, 2020 4:24:19 GMT -8
Hey guys. First, can anyone tell me why Christ gave the command to not marry a divorced woman but never gave the command to not marry a divorced man?
This thread concerns a close bud of mine and his sister. He is divorced and was living with a divorced woman and fell for another divorced woman but was trying to get out of the existing relationship trying not to hurt her while pursing the other woman. Eventually the relationship with the new woman ended because she got to find out he was still living in the other woman's house while he was courting her.
So I said to myself since he was living in sin in both relationships maybe now will be the time for him to change so I was happy for him that both relationships had ended. He is a Sunday Christian and is on the Church "Board", how that is possible is beyond me.
Anyways, the woman did not want to have anything to do with him after his many repeated attempts to reconcile but now his sister who is all about Jesus [in her words at least] kept pushing him to not give up and to keep going after the woman for a second chance. She kept praying for this and it worked so now him and the woman is at least talking again.
I told her this not God's work, this is still the devil's work as God would not send him back into a sinful relationship or am I wrong here?
My main question is this though, which would be the greater sin should they go back to their normal living, that they are having sex outside of marriage or if this time around they should get married, he would be marrying a divorced woman?
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Post by alon on Jul 31, 2020 13:02:06 GMT -8
Hey guys. First, can anyone tell me why Christ gave the command to not marry a divorced woman but never gave the command to not marry a divorced man?
Matthew 19:9 (ESV) And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
Just 2 of the times Yeshua talks about divorce, and He always puts the responsibility on the man for making that decision. And the corollary to the man committing adultery if he marries a divorced woman is that it takes 2 to commit adultery, therefore this is also an admonition to women not to marry a divorced man.You are asking the wrong question. The greater sin is he appears to be an incorrigible womanizer, and neither he, not his sister, nor for that matter the church have the morals of an alley cat. He's divorced, but on the board of the church while living openly with one woman and just as openly pursuing another. My guess is this is a pattern in his life. Men like that don't leave one bed unless they have another to go to. And they are always looking. I am necessarily reading a lot into this situation, knowing only what you tell us. So I could be being too harsh on them all. Regardless, from what you say and even if I am being too hard on them- everyone concerned here is in sin. The first thing they all need to do is to get right with God, then they can move forward to rectify their problems with each other.
As to the question of being divorced and remarrying:
Matthew 19:3-12 (ESV) And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” [Some manuscripts add and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery; other manuscripts except for sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery]
10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”Rav Shaul, speaking to the Corintheans on sexual immorality, said:
1 Corinthians 7:6–7 (NASB) But this I say by way of concession, not of command. Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.
Rav Shaul seems to be echoing what Moshe knew, that not all men (or women) can live celibate lives, and while divorce is abhorrent to God remarriage is better than living lives of yielding to sexual temptation.
But before your friend ever considers remarriage, or even recommitment to a relationship with another woman, he needs to get help from a Godly counselor. No relationship will ever last if he is always looking for his next conquest. He also needs to separate himself from that church and his sister, and any other less than Godly influences.
Divorce is a tricky subject, and I am neither a Rabbi nor a counselor. So take this as advice, and encourage your friend to seek help. And not the help of his sister or that particular church. Rather help from someone qualified both by education and by true service to HaShem.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Aug 1, 2020 8:23:08 GMT -8
You are asking the wrong question. The greater sin is he appears to be an incorrigible womanizer, and neither he, not his sister, nor for that matter the church have the morals of an alley cat. He's divorced, but on the board of the church while living openly with one woman and just as openly pursuing another. My guess is this is a pattern in his life. Men like that don't leave one bed unless they have another to go to. And they are always looking. I am necessarily reading a lot into this situation, knowing only what you tell us. So I could be being too harsh on them all. Regardless, from what you say and even if I am being too hard on them- everyone concerned here is in sin. The first thing they all need to do is to get right with God, then they can move forward to rectify their problems with each other.
But before your friend ever considers remarriage, or even recommitment to a relationship with another woman, he needs to get help from a Godly counselor. No relationship will ever last if he is always looking for his next conquest. He also needs to separate himself from that church and his sister, and any other less than Godly influences.
Divorce is a tricky subject, and I am neither a Rabbi nor a counselor. So take this as advice, and encourage your friend to seek help. And not the help of his sister or that particular church. Rather help from someone qualified both by education and by true service to HaShem.
Dan C He was never one to be involved with two men at the same time to my knowledge. The first mistake I think he had made regarding the new woman was he should have officially ended the relationship first and move out then pursue a relationship with the other. he had said he wasn't sleeping with the older woman anymore when he had met the new one but I don't know whether is true or not. Yes, his history has shown that as soon as one relationship ends he immediately moves into another one and yes the fault in on this new woman too and his sister. Agree on all points, that was my thinking too. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 2, 2020 3:46:13 GMT -8
I spoke to the sister, she is saying that by living through "grace", all sins are forgiven.
I heard a Pastor David Jeremiah say that as long as we accept Christ as our savior we will no longer have to stand before God when we die to answer for our sins, that we will be forgiven for every sin whether past, present or future.
What's your take on this please?
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Post by alon on Aug 2, 2020 10:52:55 GMT -8
I spoke to the sister, she is saying that by living through "grace", all sins are forgiven. I heard a Pastor David Jeremiah say that as long as we accept Christ as our savior we will no longer have to stand before God when we die to answer for our sins, that we will be forgiven for every sin whether past, present or future. What's your take on this please?
I, and most Messianics I know believe that while no power nor person in heaven or on earth may remove us from His grace, we still have free will. The Bible must still be interpreted in its entirety, not just based on pulling one verse out and building doctrines on what we want that to mean. And it is a Biblical principle that even God will never interfere with our free will. If we choose to leave His hand, to rebuke His unmerited favor towards us, He will not stop us. But the Ruach cannot abide where sin holds such sway in our lives, nor where He is not wanted.Understand too that Biblically sin can be broken down several ways. In English, the words translated simply as "sin" ave much deeper meanings in Hebrew:* כטאה chata’ah- litterally “missing the mark,” an error or mistake
* פשע peshah- willful transgression, defiance, rebellion; casting off the authority of God
* עון avon- iniquity; perversion; willfully twisting the will or words of God for ouer own ends
The first category, כטאה chata’ah may be covered by grace. I never claim to know the exact demarcation between grace and stepping away, but I will say in the second category a person is in grave danger. In the third, you are completely outside of His grace and in a condemned state. Many simply classify sin as either unintentional or transgression. My old rabbi was like that (though I lean more to the 3 above categories). Unintentional sins are covered by grace, transgressions are not. Either way your friend and his sister, and at least the leadership (and probably most or all the congregation) of their church have stepped away and are NOT under grace! They are deluding themselves.Bottom line, your friend, his sister, and their church are not only wrong, they have gone over to the enemies camp. As she said it, she is right, "by living through "grace", all sins are forgiven." However none of them are "living through "grace."" They are living in sin. Grace is not, nor was it ever a license to sin, and the wages of "sin" is still death.Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Aug 3, 2020 3:38:25 GMT -8
Great points Dan, thanks!.
Let me clarify on 2 issues here please. My studies had shown that when we die we will face God and we will have to answer for each of our sins, do you believe in that? Or is it that when we die we will simply either go to Heaven or hell without having to face God to answer for our sins?
Regarding the friend and marriage, since he's a divorcee, what advice should I myself give to him, that he is to live the rest of his days alone so as not break God's command or that he can marry again just not a divorced woman? If he was YOUR friend how would you advise him on this part of his life?
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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2020 5:51:02 GMT -8
Great points Dan, thanks!. Let me clarify on 2 issues here please. My studies had shown that when we die we will face God and we will have to answer for each of our sins, do you believe in that? Or is it that when we die we will simply either go to Heaven or hell without having to face God to answer for our sins? Regarding the friend and marriage, since he's a divorcee, what advice should I myself give to him, that he is to live the rest of his days alone so as not break God's command or that he can marry again just not a divorced woman? If he was YOUR friend how would you advise him on this part of his life?
They all need to get right with God, either becoming saved or, in Christian parlance rededicating their lives. And stop living in sin at the moment. Afterward, I agree with Rav Shaul- it is better to marry than to continue yielding to temptation to sin. So I wouldn't necessarily advise against his marrying a divorced woman. He's already an adulterer, so I'm not sure about that point. But whoever he marries, he needs to make sure because she should be his last.
Others may have different advice, but that is mine. And I pray I have not told you wrong, but you asked. That's the best I can tell you at this point.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Aug 3, 2020 8:05:59 GMT -8
John 10:28 (ESV) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
I, and most Messianics I know believe that while no power nor person in heaven or on earth may remove us from His grace, we still have free will. The Bible must still be interpreted Understand too that Biblically sin can be broken down several ways. In English, the words translated simply as "sin" ave much deeper meanings in Hebrew:* כטאה chata’ah- litterally “missing the mark,” an error or mistake
* פשע peshah- willful transgression, defiance, rebellion; casting off the authority of God
* עון avon- iniquity; perversion; willfully twisting the will or words of God for ouer own ends
The first category, כטאה chata’ah may be covered by grace. I never claim to know the exact demarcation between grace and stepping away, but I will say in the second category a person is in grave danger. In the third, you are completely outside of His grace and in a condemned state. Many simply classify sin as either unintentional or transgression. My old rabbi was like that (though I lean more to the 3 above categories). Unintentional sins are covered by grace, transgressions are not. Either way your friend and his sister, and at least the leadership (and probably most or all the congregation) of their church have stepped away and are NOT under grace! They are deluding themselves.Bottom line, your friend, his sister, and their church are not only wrong, they have gone over to the enemies camp. As she said it, she is right, "by living through "grace", all sins are forgiven." However none of them are "living through "grace."" They are living in sin. Grace is not, nor was it ever a license to sin, and the wages of "sin" is still death.Dan C I too think that David Jeremiah preaches some good stuff and yes I do not believe he is saying it's ok to sin. Thing is, is there any scripture in the NT which clearly shows what is covered by Grace and what's not? |
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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2020 13:30:49 GMT -8
Thing is, is there any scripture in the NT which clearly shows what is covered by Grace and what's not?
Romans 1:5 (ESV) through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, Our ability to witness is from His grace.Hebrews 13:9 (ESV) Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. We are strengthened spiritually by grace.Hebrews 4:16 (ESV) Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. We can approach God Himself through His grace; and we receive mercy through that same grace.2 Corinthians 12:8-9 (ESV) Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. We are able to endure by grace.1 Peter 4:10 (ESV) As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: Our spiritual gifts are the result of grace.Those are just a few places in the New Testament that we see God's grace made manifest. However we tend to think of grace as a New Testament thing only because this is what we were taught in church. In truth, God's grace is shown more abundantly in the Old Testament than in the New. It was just explained better in the New, which is one of the things HaMoshiach (and later His shaliachim) was supposed to do. But if we just look, His grace was everywhere in the TNK:
* Abraham and Sarah’s lapses in trust- he said Sarah was sister twice; she told him to sleep with another woman to conceive and fulfill the covenant, then laughed when told she’d conceive.* Joseph’s story is full of examples of grace.* Moshe, considered the greatest of prophets doubted God at every turn, yet grace saw him through his monumental task and his many trials..* When the Mishkan was built, Adoniram, who was in charge of the levy, and especially Bezalel who was the master craftsman in charge of the entire project were given extra portions of grace to be able to do their jobs.* Rachav, probably an innkeeper and possibly a madam boldly acknowledged El Elohe Yisroel to be the supreme God, and was saved both physically and spiritually.* Melech Dovid stole, killed and even murdered, lusted and fornicated, and then lied about it. Yet in him God saw a repentant heart and forgave him. That is grace in action.* Israel repeatedly rebelled, yet were rescued time and again through the grace of their God.And there are verses that actually mention grace as well:
Psalm 86:15 (KJV) But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
Genesis 6:8 (KJV) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
2 Kings 13:23 (KJV) And the Lord was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence as yet.
Again, just a very few of the example where grace can be found in the Old Testament.
Grace touches every aspect of our lives as believers. What is not covered is an unrepentant heart. Disbelief and mistrust when we are not willing to humble ourselves before God and admit our sin. In short, when our free will does not align with the truth we know in Him, we are not covered by His grace. And that is not a good place to be.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Aug 4, 2020 4:42:58 GMT -8
Grace touches every aspect of our lives as believers. What is not covered is an unrepentant heart. Disbelief and mistrust when we are not willing to humble ourselves before God and admit our sin. In short, when our free will does not align with the truth we know in Him, we are not covered by His grace. And that is not a good place to be.
Dan C Thanks for all of those scriptures. Reason why I mentioned the NT in particular is because the sister is all about the NT. She refers to me as "being on that side", referring to the OT. So I am trying to find a scripture which clearly states what is or what's not covered under Grace to show to her since she believes we will be forgiven for every sin through Christ. I can tell her of everything you've written here and it will make no difference unless I can show her a scripture. My searches are showing the opposite, that there are scriptures showing redemption and Justification through his blood? Ephes 1:7 NKJ In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace Col 1:13-14 NKJ He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom (realm) of the Son of His love, 14in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Romans 5:9 … being now justified by his blood… Ephes 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…He chose us in Him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him… So it seems she has scriptures to backup her beliefs that all sins are forgiven but I have none to show otherwise. Also, whatever happened to the "the wages of sin is death", does that no longer apply because we are living under grace"? |
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Post by alon on Aug 4, 2020 5:33:05 GMT -8
...So I am trying to find a scripture which clearly states what is or what's not covered under Grace to show to her since she believes we will be forgiven for every sin through Christ. I can tell her of everything you've written here and it will make no difference unless I can show her a scripture. There is no one scripture; rather all scripture must be read in context with the entire word. My searches are showing the opposite, that there are scriptures showing redemption and Justification through his blood? ... So it seems she has scriptures to backup her beliefs that all sins are forgiven but I have none to show otherwise. Of course there are those scriptures. However reading the entire word and not just cherry-picking the verses we want and building lies around them those you cite do not say you are forgiven, go sin your heart out and you are still going to be saved.Also, whatever happened to the "the wages of sin is death", does that no longer apply because we are living under grace"? Romans 6:23 (NASB) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. I checked my Bible, and Romans is still in the New Testament.
Titus 2:11-14 (ESV) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. So grace trains us not to sin! To live in a Godly manner in THIS present age. Grace purifies us; it does NOT lead us into sin. It makes us zealous for GOOD works. So just where does she get off, corrupting the gospel like she does? She is of her father, ha'satan, not of God. And she has no grace.The Spirit is the instrument of God's grace. Galatians 5:16-17 (ESV) But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. If she had grace, she'd have the Spirit. Then she would not be leading a life of hedonism and abandon, and coaxing her brother to accompany her on the road to hell.
Tell it to her just like that. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Aug 4, 2020 9:44:28 GMT -8
I've been reminding her of John 14 for a long time now.
Can you advise on this please?
My studies had shown that when we die we will face God and we will have to answer for each of our sins, do Messianics believe in that? Or is it that because of Grace, when we die we will simply go to Heaven without having to face God to answer for our sins?
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Post by alon on Aug 4, 2020 12:56:48 GMT -8
... My studies had shown that when we die we will face God and we will have to answer for each of our sins, do Messianics believe in that? Or is it that because of Grace, when we die we will simply go to Heaven without having to face God to answer for our sins?
Ecclesiastes 12:14 (ESV) For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.Matthew 12:36 (ESV) I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Aug 7, 2020 12:28:46 GMT -8
That's it! That's what I was looking for for these Christians who are all about being forgiven for every sin and will not be held accountable for them as we are under Grace, thanks!
Two things here please. This was the SDA's answer:
My thinking is whatever happened to "the wages of sin is death", does that no longer apply since we are under Grace"?
Also I would like to explore this part of scripture Matthew 16:24
First 2 lines, what does that mean please?
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Post by alon on Aug 7, 2020 14:20:21 GMT -8
You are correct, but so are the SDA’s for the most part. With them it is a matter of focus; what they stress, what they leave out, and what they ignore. Yes, we have the security in the Christ that no one may take away our salvation. And yes, we have grace, which is unmerited favor. However we do still have free will. We may decide that we desire a life of sin more than life in His grace. God’s promises are always conditional because we do have free will. We can walk away.
They reference Rom 12:2, “ Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.”
They are offered a choice here. Nothing says they get renewed like it or not. And if they are going to quote Gal 5:16. they should include the entire passage:
Galatians 5:16-21 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here Paul is talking to believers, exhorting them to walk in the Spirit and do what is right. But he gives examples of sin and tells these believers that if they choose these things they will not inherit the kingdom. This doesn’t sound like “Once saved always saved” to me.
The quote from Heb 10 is an exhortation to “hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering,” not a statement of eternal security. And Phil 1 is praising the Phillipians for their faithfulness, because of which Paul is “sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Again, nothing about eternal security whether you want it or not. Just that because they are faithful, God will complete his work in them.
Context, context, context. First they need to read every scripture in the context of the entire passage. They also need to consider who is speaking and all his other writings as well as who is being spoken to and their circumstances- spiritual, physical, historical, and anything else that could be effecting them. They must also consider the whole word of God, not just the verses they cherry-pick to build their theologies on.
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- there are 70 faces to 
