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Post by garrett on Apr 21, 2019 11:56:40 GMT -8
Hi Everyone, Is it even possible to know the approximate length of time that G-d allowed Job to suffer? I've been besieged by a few specific things for almost six years exactly. I am so accustomed to these longstanding problems that they're practically common place to me. I have consistently prayed for help and / or Deliverance but to no avail. I am still grateful for all the things I have, both material and spiritual, but I'm pretty darn worn out from praying for the same thing and each time hearing or sensing no reply from G-d at all. the relationship often times seems one-sided. G-d is on my mind throughout each day. yet his apparent silence appears unwavering. don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not going to toss Him to the trash Heap but there are some areas of my life where I ask, "where are you in this???" He and I clearly have some type of relationship because one day I can give him heck and the next day I'll find myself telling him how much I love Him. in the scriptures we are told not to quench the Holy Spirit. but I cant help telling Him not to quench ME!!! so that leads me to the question, how long was Job's experience? I'm writing this through my cell phone so I hope it all makes sense... Hope everyone is doing well. thanks - Garrett
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2019 14:49:56 GMT -8
I've heard no one knows, but that it was a significantly long time.
Do you think maybe you're pushing for things to be your way because it seems it has to be? I'm only asking because I know I have made things harder on myself doing that. When I let go, much of the oppressive attacks became more manageable. I wasn't drawn in to the struggle as much. It didn't disappear, but became something I could manage. I just knew I didn't need to fight so hard to make it go away. It's still an option, but I can deal with the issues in my life without going to that really dark, depressed, angry hopeless place. I was seeking an end to my troubles because I thought they had to end for me to move on, and it took my focus off good things and places where G-d was acting weren't so obvious to me
Sorry, I don't know what else to say to try and help except I'll keep you in my prayers. Hopefully it's not something you have to go through, and you'll find some answers and peace soon.
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Post by alon on Apr 21, 2019 15:52:41 GMT -8
Hi Everyone, Is it even possible to know the approximate length of time that G-d allowed Job to suffer? I've been besieged by a few specific things for almost six years exactly. I am so accustomed to these longstanding problems that they're practically common place to me. I have consistently prayed for help and / or Deliverance but to no avail. I am still grateful for all the things I have, both material and spiritual, but I'm pretty darn worn out from praying for the same thing and each time hearing or sensing no reply from G-d at all. the relationship often times seems one-sided. G-d is on my mind throughout each day. yet his apparent silence appears unwavering. don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not going to toss Him to the trash Heap but there are some areas of my life where I ask, "where are you in this???" He and I clearly have some type of relationship because one day I can give him heck and the next day I'll find myself telling him how much I love Him. in the scriptures we are told not to quench the Holy Spirit. but I cant help telling Him not to quench ME!!! so that leads me to the question, how long was Job's experience? I'm writing this through my cell phone so I hope it all makes sense... Hope everyone is doing well. thanks - Garrett We're not told how long Job's suffering lasted. The main part was at least a few weeks, but could have been much longer. And even after being blessed he may have grieved for his lost children for a while. As for you, if your circumstances have not changed in 6 yrs, it may be time to reevaluate what you are doing. Possibly look for work in a different field. Do I recall correctly you have your own business? You might want to find a full time job and do the business part time. I'll pray for you. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 27, 2019 14:56:14 GMT -8
I'm having a rough time today. I don't know exactly why, but it reminded me of your post and my response making it sound like I somehow have it all together. Maybe you can share a bit what's going on... I was doing well, then today while trying to rest, I got all off track. It's like the second I try to rest my mind, and my guard has to come down, it's relentless demonic attacking.
So I went from a great week (for me) of unleavened bread that actually included other people, a nice breakfast with the family and memorizing Psalms and reading scripture this morning, to just a couple of hours ago wrestling with thoughts like...
I'm done with this. Wait....G-d help me now I'm stuck. I can't even quit now because I know it's a sin. I'm not Jewish. I can't figure this out, and You're not helping. I'm sick of trying when there's no one here to meet me. I'm convinced a Rabbi somewhere could understand me. I need help figuring out what you're doing to me. You're not helping where I need You most. If I stop worrying then I end up not caring so now what - either I don't care or I lose my mind? Maybe I should find a Rabbi to talk to because I have a lot to say and I'm convinced somehow that's who would understand me.... ahh forget it, let the Jewish people figure it out and start leading the way. I'll just go back to what I know because they don't want me anyway. G-d look what's happening to me. This is too much, stop the whole thing because if my hearts like this it's not working. This can't be right. Then I'll find my way back to but if I stop, and go back, I'm choosing sin so here I am with no where to go and no clue what you want me to do because if I think too much about it or start doing more, I end up back here and I don't know where I am.
that's a bit of an example of how ugly I can get in my thoughts and shamefully meanhearted to pretty much anyone who goes through my mind, but that's what happened by the end of the day. It's like I can't let my mind go enough to fall asleep without being drawn in. It hadn't happened for a long time until today so it reminded me of my response to your post suggesting I was doing better. I thought I was, but then problems today.
I don't know why exactly today was a step backward except that I was actually doing better. Then it's like, I can't help but think how will this turn out well for me spiritually when every time I start doing well, this is where I end up. Then I end up questioning everything - like maybe this is the curse I heard Jewish people talk about if a Gentile tries to keep the Sabbath.....and so the last several years of my life, what I taught my children and told people, what has become my identity because now I don't know what else to do is questionable and perhaps a huge, sinful, mistake. Then it's all up in the air, and that brings me back to my senses a bit just because I know the One I believe in.
So I have been struggling for years with this, and I do better but somehow also always seem to be spinning my wheels. It does seem when I start doing better I'll run into a day, usually a Sabbath, where my thoughts are attacked when I try to rest. Just sharing, because I thought of my response to your post about what you're going through and thought maybe I got too far ahead of myself.
I don't know what's going on but I'm curious if you've noticed a difference since you stopped attending the synagogue. I feel like if I had spiritual fellowship, this would go away because that's where the "conversations" start - me thinking about G-d and my spiritual obligations and opportunities. I'm not sure what's going on, but maybe you can share a bit more about your struggles. Perhaps you need to go back to the synagogue because it's not good to be alone either. I don't know, just went through my mind as a thought for you. Then I think since you are Jewish, I'm not sure where else would make more sense for you to go.
I don't know. It just came to my mind because I'm convinced lack of fellowship is an area that can expose us to evil attack just because spirituality is such an active area in our lives that it's a problem not to be able to act on it, share it, and fellowship spiritually. I know hasatsn has exploited that lacking area in my life.
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Post by alon on Apr 27, 2019 21:32:19 GMT -8
Lack of fellowship is a huge problem for many Messianics. And you are right that it can be debilitating. I don't know if it will help much, but those things that the enemy throws at you like that Elizabeth, the things you feel and the struggles you have plague me at times. And I'm guessing we are not the only ones. I am down to one person now who I meet with regularly on Shabbat. I just spent a totally lackluster Pesach and Unleavened Bread season. My Rabbi just got back from an overseas trip that ended up lasting over 3 months and I am so snowed under here with working on the house that I couldn't go to meet with him. I am tired, I hurt, and just haven't seen anything moving spiritually here for a while, to be honest.
But then I think of the thousands, perhaps millions that Rabbi reached in radio spots while he was gone. People in Asia, the Pacific Rim countries, and even some Muslim countries are begging him to come back. So just because it isn't happening for me doesn't mean things are not happening. And he left Sri Lanka just before the bombings, which did effect some of our people. Not sure of the details, but he set up a fund to help them.
Sometimes I think we need to just step back and take stock. Others face far worse than me, whether it's you who have no one at all, or people in places where the test of faith could suddenly be your life! And yes, others think I am off my rocker, but they are welcome to their opinions. But the doubt ... that can get to me at times. The learning curve has leveled out, so it isn't like it was when I was making great progress. Now the lessons are tougher, but I still make a lot of mistakes. And I can't really keep the commandments like I should because I live in a divided home. Then there are all the terrible mistakes and outright rebellious things I've done. Don't think I'm not reminded of those often! Doubt is a killer.
The bills, my health, my age, my oh my ... And I am trying to give all this to God and not worry, but ... and then of course I doubt my faith.
But it does help to take stock. We are very few, but we do have this forum. That's a blessing, as well as a treasure trove of information. I think of what I know now as opposed to when I started here- night and day! And did I do this because I wanted God's truth, or because I wanted people to like me? I am getting the truth, they still have the blinders on. As for finding friends with a common interest, I could go to the Senior Center or the VFW and find that. But the truth I find only in proper interpretation of God's word. And to make sure I don't stray too far reading my own understanding into things, I need people I can trust to bounce ideas off. That'd be you all, as well as my rabbi when I can tie him down long enough. And Mark, of course.
I also look at it like this: I don't have to do this all perfectly. When I mess up or simply cannot do something, there is always grace. And often sorting what to keep from Christianity and/or Rabbinic Judaism can be confusing. What should I keep and what do I just want to keep, and does the latter conflict with scripture in any way? I've changed my mind on some of it, and probably will do so again many times. It's all a process. I think we have to cut ourselves some slack. Not enough to hang ourselves, but being tightly wound all the time is counter productive as well. Find a balance, do our best, and keep pushing forward.
Dan (far from perfected) C
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 28, 2019 5:12:55 GMT -8
It probably should help, but because of the evil feelings I'm dealing with in this topic, it just makes me feel that much more a problem of insignificance.
Here's what is underneath it all. I can't ultimately go forward until the Kingdom comes and Jewish people accept Yeshua, or I find some fellowship with sincere hearted people. If I were to fellowship locally, I'd almost have to lie not to cause problems because I just don't accept their ways as truth. So I don't see any option there. So I also can't go backward because I know the truth.
Meanwhile, we know that Jewish people as a whole don't come to Yeshua until the end of the age. So why am I here, at this point, with no where to go? I don't see what Hevesbts me to do. In a similar way, I'm a woman so there's that much less say I have in terms of what needs to be done. To sum it up, I'm a Gentile women that just seems to have nothing to do with what He's shown and given me to do. So for peace of mind I just focus on what is in my life and wait, but then I start sliding backwards into disinterest and apathy.
This isn't happening now. I'm not depressed or angry, but this is the kind of stuff that comes up spiritually when I'm being attacked. It's almost like I have to live my life like its something it's not and pretend I don't notice what's wrong around me just to get along in it because there's so much wrong and people don't want to hear from me. I'm not good at that. I keep so much to myself because there's nothing to do with it. Things seem to be better, but I went through it. Speaking didn't work, being quiet didn't work, hopefully things continue to get better. I don't live with people who want to talk about G-d, and It just builds up as I try to live and cope with it.
Anyway, the point is. We don't know what you're going through Garrett. I hope I didn't belittle your experiences with my attempt at advice, but I think it's entirely possible you are right about identifying with Job and his years of suffering. If so, you may not underdtand it in this life as we struggle to understand the reasoning for it in Job's even now. But you will be blessed and G-d is doing more than you know. Your in my prayers.
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Post by alon on Apr 28, 2019 10:01:45 GMT -8
It probably should help, but because of the evil feelings I'm dealing with in this topic, it just makes me feel that much more a problem of insignificance. One of the doctrines of Christianity that we need to hold on tightly to as Meshiachim is that no one is insignificant to God. Especially you who are struggling to do what is right there on your own. Your faith should be tied to God, not what the Jews do. You were already told what the Jews as a whole will do, so let that be between them and God. You were already told what the rest of the world will do as well, so basing your faith on them is just as foolish. If you need a social outlet, find something outside church but that a lot of Christian women do. They may be more accepting of you outside their churches constraints. My wife quilts, and they have roups doing stuff where women from all denominations get together and do projects. That's just an example. Perhaps find something you like, say pottery or birdwatching. But don't depend on others actions for your faith. Actually, women have more a voice than they think. Especially with other women. But that women are subservient to men is one of the church's false doctrines that we need to let go of. Women have a different role, but one no less important than men. There is a difference in equality and sameness. The world gets that wrong. Keep your focus on God and know He has you there for a reason. That's what I do anyhow. I moderate a forum where you and mystic are the only really active posters. I do the par'shot every other week to be read by Mark and myself and then posted here where even the numbers of lurkers is dwindling. It is often all too easy to contemplate giving up. But I can't, because once I knew the truth there was no turning back. And I won't walk away from it. So I look to God and just keep moving forward. And look at it this way. You probably make the meals and buy the groceries. So you can do things like removing the leaven during Unleavened Bead. I can eat like a horse and get rid of as much leaven leading up to Pesach, then sneak the rest into the garbage. My wife will just buy more. So all I can do is try to be careful what I eat. And if you've read labels, leaven is everywhere! It is not fun living in a divided home, but we do the best we can. My wife gets really defensive and then angry when I try to talk to her. And I am the only true Messianic in my whole area for miles. There are a couple of Ebionites and even a few who call themselves Messianic. But they want to do their own thing (sacred names and two house focusing on nonsense like the lost tribes and- SURPRISE!- they are them), refusing to even come and fellowship. They certainly don't want to hear what I have to say. Few want to hear the truth, But our job is to be there if any do, otherwise we are not responsible for their response to us. We are responsible for the message, not how they react to it. I pray for you by name daily. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 28, 2019 12:02:05 GMT -8
I'm trying to figure out why it feels like my faith is somehow tied into the Jewish people.
We are told to the Jew first then to the Gentile. Somehow that makes me feel like I have to wait for the proper order to be in place to live out my faith completely. I know that verse is speaking to spreading he Gospel, but it still seems to somehow suggest an order I have to wait for to have somewhere to go with what I believe. I do think we should have a Judaism to go to, but we really don't as much as we try because Jewish people don't accept us. That's fine. It's fair to wait because G-d is faithful and I understand it, but it's just hard to understand why then G-d has brought me to this place when as of now there's no where to go.
Beyond this possible over application of that verse, we know that Torah isn't implemented on earth fully until after the Jewish remnant calls on Yeshua, so He is waiting for them. I think I am too. I don't know if I feel like my faith is tied into the Jewish people in that way necessarily, but I definitely feel like the expression of my faith is. So I do feel like I have to wait, and that's where I start questioning things and where I get spiritually attacked.
Then I also feel guilty at thinking the way you suggest, or the way it sounds to me, because it feels like it would be just another form of replacement theology somehow.
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Post by alon on Apr 28, 2019 12:50:17 GMT -8
I'm trying to figure out why it feels like my faith is somehow tied into the Jewish people. We are told to the Jew first then to the Gentile. Somehow that makes me feel like I have to wait for the proper order to be in place to live out my faith completely. I know that verse is speaking to spreading he Gospel, but it still seems to somehow suggest an order I have to wait for to have somewhere to go with what I believe. I do think we should have a Judaism to go to, but we really don't as much as we try because Jewish people don't accept us. That's fine. It's fair to wait because G-d is faithful and I understand it, but it's just hard to understand why then G-d has brought me to this place when as of now there's no where to go. Beyond this possible over application of that verse, we know that  isn't implemented on earth fully until after the Jewish remnant calls on Yeshua, so He is waiting for them. I think I am too. I don't know if I feel like my faith is tied into the Jewish people in that way necessarily, but I definitely feel like the expression of my faith is. So I do feel like I have to wait, and that's where I start questioning things and where I get spiritually attacked. Then I also feel guilty at thinking the way you suggest, or the way it sounds to me, because it feels like it would be just another form of replacement theology somehow. By the time the Jewish people come to Yeshua the end of the age will already be very near. However you may take some comfort from the fact that, as a percentage, far more contemporary Jews believe in Yeshua (or Jesus) than do Gentiles. As to trying to be something we are not or worse, being a replacement theology, that depends entirely on us, not on what others choose to believe about us. First off, I am always quick to say I am a believer in Messianic Judaism. That tells people right up front what I am. And I am just as quick to tell them I was raised Southern Baptist. So no one can say I lied to them. And what we are doing as Messianics is not to replace Rabbinical Judaism, the Jewish people, or anyone as God's chosen ones. God never revokes a calling, and the Jewish people are His chosen. We are trying to rightly discern scripture and worship as the first century talmedim did, both Jew and Gentile convert. The only ones we could be said to be "replacing" are those early believers in Yeahus as Messiah. And they were many. I've heard estimates, backed up by the Bible accounts as well as historical writings that over half of 1st cen Jews followed Yeshua. Abba Eban, Jewish scholar and Israel's former ambassador to the UN once said (and this is from memory) that almost 1/3rd of the jews at the time followed Yeshua. He believed they were the 3rd largest sect in Israel at the time. That is a significant number of Jews who believed in Yeshua! Then there were all the Gentiles they converted to Judaism to worship Yeshua as God intended, as Jews! That is who we are "replacing." But never would we say or try to replace the Jewish people as God's own chosen ones. I am simply grafted onto the rootstalk of Judaism; a born Gentile who has come to believe that the Jews were and are right about most things- except for that one small detail of who the Messiah is. I don't want to replace them, I want to join them! That they do not accept me is not a problem. Who God says is grafted in is, and who He prunes is not. But hat concerns salvation, not who is called. I still struggle with what I was called to be and do, but I keep trying and rely on grace if I get it wrong. We trust God for forgiveness and our salvation. It's all about Him, not me. He called the Jews as a people, but they must answer individually. He called us (Gentiles) individually, and still we must give an answer. Do we follow where called, or do we go back and get comfortable getting our ears tickled? Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 28, 2019 18:35:14 GMT -8
I agree. I can't go back, too much has changed for me as an individual. I think we're struggling with where to go or what to do because by the nature of our faith, we believe in a big G-d who expects us to influence life for the good. I think this is where we feel the strain of the order G-d has in place, not yet being in place, and that's what I meant in terms of being a woman too.
I guess it goes back to the garden, but I think there is a larger effect if the man does or doesn't follow G-d somehow. I don't know exactly how, but I think its similar to what we're experiencing regarding Israel. There's a hole that we can't fill just because G-d respects the covenant and purposes He gives us.
I'm supposed to be a helpmate and G-dly influence on my husband. That's my calling in the relationship, but I can't if he won't listen to me and doesn't want G-d. I depend on him to be able to do what G-d gives me to do just by the nature of who He made me to be.
I think we're suffering something similar in the order of our spiritual lives as Israel is not right with G-d. There's just going to be a lacking in our lives because of what we can't do I think. That's hard to come to terms with, especially because unlike my choice to have an ungodly marriage, this wasn't our choice.
I think that's why I feel like He handed me a bunch of stuff I can't do much about when I'm being spiritually attacked. It's like I'm suffering for my faith but not able to do much with it regarding the life around me. Then I get really worried that maybe my calling is just to be an example of consequences for people who are just going to continue to rebell against their calling anyway. And that may be what's going on for me. I don't know, but I see the need so think it's a possibility as miserable as it is to submit to.
I keep praying for some miraculous change or that in the least my kids do something with what He's given me when it's said and done because I don't think I'm doing much with what He's given me as of now. But things do seem to be getting better, and I'm learning to try and notice more that I can do, however little it seems. And that's a matter of humility so I see it's fair and good.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 30, 2019 14:59:52 GMT -8
Though we are not told how long Job's trial lasted we do have the following:
Luke 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
John 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
Acts 4:22 For the man (lame from his mother's womb)was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.
Acts 9:33 And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy. 34And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole:
The phrase "and it came to pass" occurs 396 times in the King James. Your trial will come to pass. I pray that at the end of your trial you will be counted faithful as Job was and God receive glory for your delivery.
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Post by garrett on May 3, 2019 15:41:02 GMT -8
Hi All,
Sorry for asking a question and then.....disappearing (!) I had a chance to read responses and need to gather my thoughts now. Plan to write back soon.
garrett
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Post by alon on May 3, 2019 16:13:48 GMT -8
Hi All, Sorry for asking a question and then.....disappearing (!) I had a chance to read responses and need to gather my thoughts now. Plan to write back soon. garrett Glad to see you on here again! Look forward to your reply. Dan C Oh, and Shabbat shalom! About to leave for shul. Rabbi is just back from over 3 months in the Pacific Rim and Near East countries. So we'll get to hear all about that. Hope you have a blessed and restful Shabbat! |
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Post by garrett on May 6, 2019 13:53:39 GMT -8
I've heard no one knows, but that it was a significantly long time. Do you think maybe you're pushing for things to be your way because it seems it has to be? I'm only asking because I know I have made things harder on myself doing that. When I let go, much of the oppressive attacks became more manageable. I wasn't drawn in to the struggle as much. It didn't disappear, but became something I could manage. I just knew I didn't need to fight so hard to make it go away. It's still an option, but I can deal with the issues in my life without going to that really dark, depressed, angry hopeless place. I was seeking an end to my troubles because I thought they had to end for me to move on, and it took my focus off good things and places where G-d was acting weren't so obvious to me Sorry, I don't know what else to say to try and help except I'll keep you in my prayers. Hopefully it's not something you have to go through, and you'll find some answers and peace soon. Hi All, Finally getting back to the subject at hand. After reading everyone's response I think things smoothed out a bit in my mind. I think you might be right, Elizabeth, in some of the matters. I have been pushing for things to be "my way" because it seems it has to be. I think it is time to "let go" a bit more. Some issues are work related, money related, psychological...even marital (though we're still happily married). I have made some changes to my work life - pushing out a lot of the independent contractor work, which is unpredictable, and getting back into employment that is more structured, predictable and less stressful. Things are steadily, yet slowly, improving for us financially. The past several years hit our finances very hard. There is nothing more stressful than hoping for more income versus expenditure. And my wife has been struggling with some really bad depression and anxiety. Much of it has been triggered by the past six years of a roller coaster life. And ...... something we all complain about - religious isolation. I've come to better terms with it and even accept quite readily the lonely path of this spiritual style of life. I certainly make no apologies for what I believe. Some genius was right on the money when he/she came up with the term "wandering Jew." Tell me about it! It's been quite some time since I went to one of my preferred synagogues with any regularity. It's an orthodox shul. No one believes that Yeshua is the Messiah, so there is absolutely no shared kinshmanship in that regard. But I've always liked going there when I do. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't be doing so. That being said, I get some nourishment there, though it's hard to describe. Nowadays I'm also a bit hesitant because I don't want to be shot (!!!). I almost went to synagogue last week but I stayed home because I could tell my wife needed me to stay home with her. That was no problem. But I sense that I'm gearing up to go back on a regular basis. What do you guys think about my being in a place where many would consider me to be an "infidel?" I hope everyone is having a nice Spring so far. I'm glad it's finally here. garrett |
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Post by alon on May 6, 2019 17:26:56 GMT -8
Up to you about going to synagogue. I don't think I'd go where I wasn't wanted. But you are right, the isolation can get to a person. I lucked out finding the people I have, though it's down to just me, Mark and Rabbi most Erev Shabbat's. But we alternate doing the par'shot, so that keeps us going.
Try reading what I put up here for the par'shah each week, then add your own take on it. that will help keep you grounded and it can be a bit like being involved. I know it isn't face to face, but it helps some.
Glad you are getting things turned around with work. Financial problems can be draining.
Keep posting. I missed you insights.
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
