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Post by Questor on Feb 11, 2019 18:50:33 GMT -8
Yes, it was on the 2nd day of Pesach, on Saturday between sundown and midnight. Note: this response was to a Christian, who asked about the time and day of the resurrection. He uses a Gregorian calendar, so my response was for Saturday evening. On the Hebrew calendar, Saturday after sundown is actually the 1st day of the week and would have been the 3rd day of Pesach.
I know the Catholics...indeed, all westerners say Thursday to Sunday, but that was the point of the Western Calendar...changing times and days. It keeps us tied to the wrong visual picture of that week. ('good friday', and all that).
Moderator note: I am moving this to its own thread, since it has become its own topic mostly unrelated to the thread it is in. |
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Post by alon on Feb 11, 2019 22:09:01 GMT -8
Matthew 28:1 (ESV) Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
OK, so the empty tomb was discovered "after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week." The Sabbath referred to would be Pesach, which apparently coincided with the 7th day Shabbat as well that year. So it was the morning after Pesach He was already risen. However it does not say He arose that morning. He arose probably between sundown on the Shabbat on the Jewish calendar, and midnight on the Gregorian calendar, falling in that space marking a new Jewish day but not yet the Gregorian Sunday.
In Hebrew thought, if you spent any part of a day in the tomb, it would count as a full day. So He was crucified on the preparation day, died that afternoon and was entombed just before the Shabbat, Pesach, which would have been a sin to have left a corpse hanging on the Shabbat (not to mention it couldn't have remained into the night). 1 day.
He was in the tomb all day on Pesach, the 2nd day.
And He rose sometime after sundown after the Shabbat/Pesach, the 3rd day.
Mary and Mary found the empty tomb on the Gregorian Sunday, but finding the tomb empty and His actual resurrection are 2 vastly different things. The resurrection was on the 1st day, which was the 2nd day of Pesach, but almost certainly before Sunday. Why almost certainly? Because God does not honor pagan gods.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Feb 12, 2019 19:06:35 GMT -8
[/b]Yes, it was on the 2nd day of Pesach, on Saturday between sundown and midnight. [/quote]
Matthew 28:1 (ESV) Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
OK, so the empty tomb was discovered "after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week." The Sabbath referred to would be Pesach, which apparently coincided with the 7th day Shabbat as well that year. So it was the morning after Pesach He was already risen. However it does not say He arose that morning. He arose probably between sundown on the Shabbat on the Jewish calendar, and midnight on the Gregorian calendar, falling in that space marking a new Jewish day but not yet the Gregorian Sunday.
In Hebrew thought, if you spent any part of a day in the tomb, it would count as a full day. So He was crucified on the preparation day, died that afternoon and was entombed just before the Shabbat, Pesach, which would have been a sin to have left a corpse hanging on the Shabbat (not to mention it couldn't have remained into the night). 1 day.
He was in the tomb all day on Pesach, the 2nd day.
And He rose sometime after sundown after the Shabbat/Pesach, the 3rd day.
Mary and Mary found the empty tomb on the Gregorian Sunday, but finding the tomb empty and His actual resurrection are 2 vastly different things. The resurrection was on the 1st day, which was the 2nd day of Pesach, but almost certainly before Sunday. Why almost certainly? Because God does not honor pagan gods.
Dan C
[/quote] Please look at the behaviour on the ground of what happens during any Pesach week.
The first and last day of the feast of Unleavened Bread...which begins at sunset and coincides with the Feast of Pesach is a Shabbat no matter what day it falls on...a High Holiday, on which nothing could be bought or sold, even though food preparation is allowed. That makes the High Holiday Shabbat a necessity to be on Erev Thursday (Wednesday evening)...just after Yeshua was put in the tomb.
The soonest spices and oils could have been purchased would have been on Friday, after dawn, as no one opened their market stalls in the dark evening after a High Holiday Shabbat in those days, and would have been eating Pesach until dawn on Friday, but then the preparation for the Saturday Shabbat would have to be made as well as the oils and spices purchased, and then the weekly Shabbat celebrated...leaving the women pinned in place until dawn on the feast of First Fruits...on Sunday, long after Yeshua was risen.
The progression is as follows:
Wednesday Afternoon Yeshua dies
Wednesday Evening after Sunset, Pesach begins
Thursday is still Pesach, and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, a High Sabbath.
Friday is the first opportunity to buy and sell, but food must also be prepared prior to sundown.
Friday Evening is Shabbat, as is all of Saturday until sunset.
Yeshua rises as soon as the sun sets, or at least by Havdalah.
The women go to the tomb before dawn (at first light) on Sunday, the Day of First Fruits.
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Post by alon on Feb 12, 2019 21:52:10 GMT -8
OK ... OK ..."OUCH!"
You are confusing the 14th, which is the preparation day with the first day of Pesach. On the preparation day sellers stalls were open. You could cook, and you could buy and sell. Yeshua was crucified and laid in the tomb on 14 Nissan. While the seder can be done any time on the 15th, it typically starts just before sundown the 14th so everyone is seated and ready to go as the Shabbat starts. Food preparation is NOT allowed on the 15th, which is Pesach but also the weekly Shabbat that year (apparently), the first day of Pesach/ Unleaven Bread.
Had He died on Pesach, they could not have touched His body because they could not touch death on the Shabbat.
Getting the prep day and Pesach confused has thrown your timetable off.
So no, that timetable and the resultant mess-up doesn't quite work.
Dan C
Edit: In rereading this, the way I wrote it it looked like you could never cook on Pesach. You actually can, but this Pesach apparently fell on the weekly Shabbat as well.
Note too there are a lot of interpretations and theories about the timeline for "The" Crucifixion. I don't know if we can definitively say "This (pick one) is the correct one." However there are certain parameters the timeline must meet, and the best we can do is pick the one that makes the most sense and which meets all the parameters as well as fits the character of those involved. In mine, for example, I said Yeshua probably arose during the interval between sundown, which delineates a day on the Hebrew calendar, and midnight which does so on the Gregorian calendar. Why? Because that way He did not arise on the pagan Sunday, yet still did so on the first day of he week. And in my estimation, Yeshua would never honor a pagan day.
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Post by Questor on Feb 13, 2019 16:34:14 GMT -8
OK ...
OK ..."OUCH!"
You are confusing the 14th, which is the preparation day with the first day of Pesach. On the preparation day sellers stalls were open. You could cook, and you could buy and sell. Yeshua was crucified and laid in the tomb on 14 Nissan. While the seder can be done any time on the 15th, it typically starts just before sundown the 14th so everyone is seated and ready to go as the Shabbat starts. Food preparation is NOT allowed on the 15th, which is Pesach but also the weekly Shabbat that year (apparently), the first day of Pesach/ Unleaven Bread.
Had He died on Pesach, they could not have touched His body because they could not touch death on the Shabbat.
Getting the prep day and Pesach confused has thrown your timetable off.
So no, that timetable and the resultant mess-up doesn't quite work.
Dan C
Edit: In rereading this, the way I wrote it it looked like you could never cook on Pesach. You actually can, but this Pesach apparently fell on the weekly Shabbat as well.
Note too there are a lot of interpretations and theories about the timeline for "The" Crucifixion. I don't know if we can definitively say "This (pick one) is the correct one." However there are certain parameters the timeline must meet, and the best we can do is pick the one that makes the most sense and which meets all the parameters as well as fits the character of those involved. In mine, for example, I said Yeshua probably arose during the interval between sundown, which delineates a day on the Hebrew calendar, and midnight which does so on the Gregorian calendar. Why? Because that way He did not arise on the pagan Sunday, yet still did so on the first day of he week. And in my estimation, Yeshua would never honor a pagan day.
If you ever truly wish to actually examine the points I raised one by one, I will be glad to discuss them. Until then, consider me overwhelmed by irrelevant information to the points I raised. |
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Post by alon on Feb 13, 2019 18:24:38 GMT -8
If you ever truly wish to actually examine the points I raised one by one, I will be glad to discuss them. Until then, consider me overwhelmed by irrelevant information to the points I raised.
Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Feb 13, 2019 20:54:07 GMT -8
If you ever truly wish to actually examine the points I raised one by one, I will be glad to discuss them. Until then, consider me overwhelmed by irrelevant information to the points I raised. Sure, go ahead. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Feb 13, 2019 21:48:16 GMT -8
Do you agree that during most Passover Weeks, there are 4 Sabbath days...two that are the actual day of Passover and two that are Saturday Shabbats? I am presuming there is not the situation of Passover falling on a Saturday Shabbat.
If you celebrate the 8th day, then the only way you could get 2 weekly Sabbaths in the week is if it DID start on a weekly Shabbat and thus ends on the next Shabbat.
If you meant to say 3 Sabbath's in a Passover week/Unleavened Bread that did not start or end on a weekly Sabbath then yes, I would agree to that.
Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Feb 15, 2019 13:12:03 GMT -8
Do you agree that during most Passover Weeks, there are 4 Sabbath days...two that are the actual day of Passover and two that are Saturday Shabbats? I am presuming there is not the situation of Passover falling on a Saturday Shabbat. Since Unleavened Bread is 7 days, no, I don't agree. It would be impossible to get 2 normal Shabbat's into an Unleavened Bread Feast. If you celebrate the 8th day, then the only way you could get 2 weekly Sabbaths in the week is if it DID start on a weekly Shabbat and thus ends on the next Shabbat. If you meant to say 3 Sabbath's in a Passover week/Unleavened Bread that did not start or end on a weekly Sabbath then yes, I would agree to that. Dan C
My statement as to the eight days of the Feast of Matza was based on the celebration of the High Holy Days for two days in the Galut, rather than the single day in Israel. My apologies for not mentioning the source of my reference.
Leviticus 23:5-8 (CJB)
5 “‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.
6 On the fifteenth day of the same month is the festival of matzah; for seven days you are to eat matzah.
7 On the first day you are to have a holy convocation; don’t do any kind of ordinary work.
8 Bring an offering made by fire to Adonai for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; do not do any kind of ordinary work.’”
I think that you are assuming that Yeshua died in 33CE. Looking at the chart I prepared below, that year's Pesach allows Two Nights, Two Days and a few hours in the grave...which under some counting methods, works as three full days, counting in the inclusive manner.
I personally take the Scriptures as stated...and the reference to Jonah by Yeshua is about being three days and three nights in the belly of the big fish.Jonah 1:17 (CJB)
17 Adonai prepared a huge fish to swallow Yonah; and Yonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.
Please also take into consideration that there was a reason that Yeshua did not immediately dash to raise Lazarus from the dead until after 3 days and 3 nights were past to make sure everyone knew that Lazarus was beginning to decay and was obviously, and stinkingly dead.
If you only allow 2 Nights, 2 Days and a few hours for Yeshua in the grave...you lend credence to the tale that he simply swooned, and revived in the cool of the tomb.
Also, under these circumstances, you have a bare 4 hours for some rather shattered women to get across the equivalent of an organized riot, buy food for two days, go home to begin preparing it, and along the way, get the spices, oils, and what not for anointing the dead...which since most people had closed their stalls at noon to go home to prepare for Shabbat, or to get their lambs sacrificed, is less and less likely, as there would be not much of a marketplace open.
And, if the women had by some chance actually touched the body of Yeshua, as any family of a dead person might, they would need to also find a mikvah, and immerse themselves to be able to partake of Pesach, or indeed, to serve the Pesach meal to those, in that culture, they would normally attend to. Pesach would be celebrated regardless of Yeshua's death...presuming any of the talmidim returned to the upper room to sit shiva...which is forbidden on Passover. It is far more likely they went to the homes of friends, like Cleopas. The idea of it all working in that short a period of time sounds unlikely, but I grant it to be possible.
Then after two back to back Shabbats, at first light, they would go out to the grave site and anoint the body, having found the tomb open.
But the four gospels do not say that, and there is no reference to any Shabbat as a reason to not buy oils and spices, as no one ever questioned the women as to why they didn't do it sooner. Mark 15:40-47 (CJB)
40 There were women looking on from a distance; among them were Miryam from Magdala, Miryam the mother of the younger Ya‘akov and of Yosi, and Shlomit.
41 These women had followed him and helped him when he was in the Galil. And many other women were there who had come up with him to Yerushalayim.
42 Since it was Preparation Day (that is, the day before a Shabbat), as evening approached,
43 Yosef of Ramatayim, a prominent member of the Sanhedrin who himself was also looking forward to the Kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Yeshua’s body.
44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead, so he summoned the officer and asked him if he had been dead awhile.
45 After he had gotten confirmation from the officer that Yeshua was dead, he granted Yosef the corpse.
46 Yosef purchased a linen sheet; and after taking Yeshua down, he wrapped him in the linen sheet, laid him in a tomb which had been cut out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the entrance to the tomb.
47 Miryam of Magdala and Miryam the mother of Yosi saw where he had been laid.
Mark 16:1-2 (CJB)
1 When Shabbat was over, Miryam of Magdala, Miryam the mother of Ya‘akov, and Shlomit bought spices in order to go and anoint Yeshua.
2 Very early the next day, just after sunrise, they went to the tomb.
Luke 23:50-56 (CJB)
50 There was a man named Yosef, a member of the Sanhedrin. He was a good man, a tzaddik;
51 and he had not been in agreement with either the Sanhedrin’s motivation or their action. He came from the town of Ramatayim, a town of the Judeans; and he looked forward to the Kingdom of God.
52 This man approached Pilate and asked for Yeshua’s body.
53 He took it down, wrapped it in a linen sheet, and placed it in a tomb cut into the rock, that had never been used.
54 It was Preparation Day, and a Shabbat was about to begin.
55 The women who had come with Yeshua from the Galil followed; they saw the tomb and how his body was placed in it.
56 Then they went back home to prepare spices and ointments. On Shabbat the women rested, in obedience to the commandment;
1 but the next day, while it was still very early, they took the spices they had prepared, went to the tomb,
Matthew 27:55-66 (CJB)
55 There were many women there, looking on from a distance; they had followed Yeshua from the Galil, helping him.
56 Among them were Miryam from Magdala, Miryam the mother of Ya‘akov and Yosef, and the mother of Zavdai’s sons.
57 Towards evening, there came a wealthy man from Ramatayim named Yosef, who was himself a talmid of Yeshua.
58 He approached Pilate and asked for Yeshua’s body, and Pilate ordered it to be given to him.
59 Yosef took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen sheet,
60 and laid it in his own tomb, which he had recently had cut out of the rock. After rolling a large stone in front of the entrance to the tomb, he went away.
61 Miryam of Magdala and the other Miryam stayed there, sitting opposite the grave.
62 Next day, after the preparation, the head cohanim and the P’rushim went together to Pilate
63 and said, “Sir, we remember that that deceiver said while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will be raised.’
64 Therefore, order that the grave be made secure till the third day; otherwise the talmidim may come, steal him away and say to the people, ‘He was raised from the dead’, and the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them, “You may have your guard. Go and make the grave as secure as you know how.”
66 So they went and made the grave secure by sealing the stone and putting the guard on watch.
1 After Shabbat, as the next day was dawning, Miryam of Magdala and the other Miryam went to see the grave.
2 Suddenly there was a violent earthquake, for an angel of Adonai came down from heaven, rolled away the stone and sat on it.
3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were as white as snow.
4 The guards were so terrified at him that they trembled and became like dead men.
5 But the angel said to the women, “Don’t be afraid. I know you are looking for Yeshua, who was executed on the stake.
6 He is not here, because he has been raised — just as he said! Come and look at the place where he lay.
John 19:31-42 (CJB)
31 It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat since it was an especially important Shabbat. So they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed.
32 The soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man who had been put on a stake beside Yeshua, then the legs of the other one;
33 but when they got to Yeshua and saw that he was already dead, they didn’t break his legs.
34 However, one of the soldiers stabbed his side with a spear, and at once blood and water flowed out.
35 The man who saw it has testified about it, and his testimony is true. And he knows that he tells the truth, so you too can trust.
36 For these things happened in order to fulfil this passage of the Tanakh: “Not one of his bones will be broken.”
37 And again, another passage says, “They will look at him whom they have pierced.”
38 After this, Yosef of Ramatayim, who was a talmid of Yeshua, but a secret one out of fear of the Judeans, asked Pilate if he could have Yeshua’s body. Pilate gave his consent, so Yosef came and took the body away.
39 Also Nakdimon, who at first had gone to see Yeshua by night, came with some seventy pounds of spices — a mixture of myrrh and aloes.
40 They took Yeshua’s body and wrapped it up in linen sheets with the spices, in keeping with Judean burial practice.
41 In the vicinity of where he had been executed was a garden, and in the garden was a new tomb in which no one had ever been buried.
42 So, because it was Preparation Day for the Judeans, and because the tomb was close by, that is where they buried Yeshua.
1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Miryam from Magdala went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb.
You have five different days mentioned in the four gospels...Preparation Day, a specially important Shabbat, a working day for the buying of Spices, Shabbat, and then the first day of the week...which happened to be First Fruits. Why not go the day they bought the spices...unless there was an intervening day...another day in which no work could be done. Please look at the chart...and you decide.
30 CE is the only year that actually fits the prophecy and the gospels, but that is merely my opinion.
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Post by alon on Feb 15, 2019 19:49:56 GMT -8
The year 30 CE is far too soon:Luke 3:23 (ESV) Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,
Not 33. In 36 CE, Hebrew year 3796, Nissan 14 was on a Friday, which would fit my timeline. But that was not on your chart. And many theologians and scholars put His death at 36 CE. And I use the Hebrew method of counting, which is that any part of a day counts as a day.
John 19:31a, 42; 20:1 (CJB) It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat ... So, because it was Preparation Day for the Judeans, and because the tomb was close by, that is where they buried Yeshua. Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Miryam from Magdala went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb.
So according to John, He died and was buried on Nissan 14, which was preparation day for the Shabbat. This fits with all the other accounts:
Luke 23:53-56; 24:1 (CJB) He took it (Yeshua's body) down, wrapped it in a linen sheet, and placed it in a tomb cut into the rock, that had never been used. It was Preparation Day, and a Shabbat was about to begin. The women who had come with Yeshua from the Galil followed; they saw the tomb and how his body was placed in it. Then they went back home to prepare spices and ointments. On Shabbat the women rested, in obedience to the commandment; but the next day, while it was still very early, they took the spices they had prepared, went to the tomb,
The only place that leaves room for confusion is:
Mark 16:1-2 (CJB) When Shabbat was over, Miryam of Magdala, Miryam the mother of Ya‘akov, and Shlomit bought spices in order to go and anoint Yeshua. Very early the next day, just after sunrise, they went to the tomb.
If you read that literally, like it is in English, then it looks like they bought spics one day after Shabbat, then went to the tomb on the next. If you read this in an interlinear, it is VERY confusing. But based on the interlinear, here are some less confusing translations:
Mark 16:1-2 (ESV) When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.
Mark 16:1-2 (NASB) When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Even the King James Bible gets it even better:
Mark 16:1-2 (KJV) And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
They all say it was on the first day of the week, so the women could not have bought spices the day before, as that would have been the weekly Shabbat. And since He died on the 14th (Preparation Day) that means the weekly and Pesach/Unleavened Bread Shabbat must have coincided.
That's a fair point, but hardly conclusive.
The reason He waited was that the Jews believed that only the Messiah could raise someone from the dead after 3 days had passed. The prophets had raised people from the dead, but never after that long.
Doubters will find a reason or an excuse, and disbelievers won't believe if you hit them over the head with the truth.
Two back to back Shabbat's would necessitate a four day entombment, which just doesn't square with scripture.
Dan CEdit: after further study, I have to say that last point may be accurate.
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Post by Questor on Feb 17, 2019 13:41:36 GMT -8
Do you agree that during most Passover Weeks, there are 4 Sabbath days...two that are the actual day of Passover and two that are Saturday Shabbats? I am presuming there is not the situation of Passover falling on a Saturday Shabbat. Since Unleavened Bread is 7 days, no, I don't agree. It would be impossible to get 2 normal Shabbat's into an Unleavened Bread Feast. If you celebrate the 8th day, then the only way you could get 2 weekly Sabbaths in the week is if it DID start on a weekly Shabbat and thus ends on the next Shabbat. If you meant to say 3 Sabbath's in a Passover week/Unleavened Bread that did not start or end on a weekly Sabbath then yes, I would agree to that. Dan C Actually, I was working on the basis of three Shabbats...unless Pesach and thus the first day of the Feast of Matza was on a Saturday, as it is this year in 2019, in which case there are only two Shabbats...both High Holidays, and causing Fast of the Firstborn problems to start on Erev Thursday. I tend to think in terms of four Shabbats in a working mode, because as one lives, you have Shabbat, and then Pesach begins, and then another Saturday Shabbat occurs, and then the final day of the feast of Matza...which feels like an excessively long period of time with Shabbats everywhere, and can easy last a week and a half...time wise, but are all the same holiday period. The first time I kept Pesach and the Shabbats I felt like I was having Shabbat every other minute...because I wasn't all that expert at preparing food ahead of time...now it seems relatively easy. But in the Crucifixion Passover period, there would have been three Shabbats, as you say...the two High Holidays flanking a Saturday Shabbat, and also encompassing the Feast of First Fruits beginning on Erev Sunday of that week. |
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Post by Questor on Feb 17, 2019 13:58:58 GMT -8
The year 30 CE is far too soon:
As to the rest of your statements, they rest on a Biblically stated date of birth, not an actual astronomical year, whether counted along the Gregorian lines, or in the Hebrew Calendar and is mostly a matter of agreed upon notation. If you wish to have Yeshua die in a later year than is astronomically likely in time counted astronomically, and noted in both the Hebrew and Gregorian Calendars you may choose any year you wish, and any days for Yeshua's Crucifiction week that suits a 0 por 1 AD Gregorian Brith year. But you are neglecting the other necessary points of the entire story on the ground...including those children being killed in the attempt to get Yeshua killed as well.
Without being in agreement even on the calendar dates of Yeshua's life, we can't even discuss the rest. It's not a problem for me, but all those Christians have to begin to face the fact that the dates are wrong, as well as the possible days that Yeshua died and rose if we go by all the facts. And since I am not in an argumentative state of mind over the matter, you may use your year, and I will use mine, and both of us will not be bothered by it. |
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Post by alon on Feb 17, 2019 14:44:31 GMT -8
Since Unleavened Bread is 7 days, no, I don't agree. It would be impossible to get 2 normal Shabbat's into an Unleavened Bread Feast. If you celebrate the 8th day, then the only way you could get 2 weekly Sabbaths in the week is if it DID start on a weekly Shabbat and thus ends on the next Shabbat. If you meant to say 3 Sabbath's in a Passover week/Unleavened Bread that did not start or end on a weekly Sabbath then yes, I would agree to that. Dan C
The essential fact you are missing in all of this is that in the Crucifixion Passover, 15 Nissan had to be on the regular Shabbat! We are clearly told Yeshua was crucified and buried on the 14th, which is the preparation day. We are also clearly told Mary and Mary went to the tomb the day after, which was the 1st day of the week. Therefore the 15th had to be on the regular Shabbat.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Feb 17, 2019 14:57:06 GMT -8
The year 30 CE is far too soon:
As to the rest of your statements, they rest on a Biblically stated date of birth, not an actual astronomical year, whether counted along the Gregorian lines, or in the Hebrew Calendar and is mostly a matter of agreed upon notation. If you wish to have Yeshua die in a later year than is astronomically likely in time counted astronomically, and noted in both the Hebrew and Gregorian Calendars you may choose any year you wish, and any days for Yeshua's Crucifiction week that suits a 0 por 1 AD Gregorian Brith year. But you are neglecting the other necessary points of the entire story on the ground...including those children being killed in the attempt to get Yeshua killed as well.
Without being in agreement even on the calendar dates of Yeshua's life, we can't even discuss the rest. It's not a problem for me, but all those Christians have to begin to face the fact that the dates are wrong, as well as the possible days that Yeshua died and rose if we go by all the facts. And since I am not in an argumentative state of mind over the matter, you may use your year, and I will use mine, and both of us will not be bothered by it.
As to your second paragraph, I have no idea about what you are saying. My statements rest not on a biblically stated date of birth (I know of no such statement), but on the information we are given in all the Gospels concerning His death. And though it sounds as if you are saying biblical evidence is not to be believed, I cannot think that is what you meant.
Third paragraph- fine. We are majoring in the minors here, as my Dad would have said. The important thing is that we both believe Yeshua was the promised Messiah, He died for our sins and was raised to now act as our High Priest.
Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Feb 17, 2019 20:25:40 GMT -8
You are assuming a late year for Yeshua's death, with the Christian notion of Yeshua's birth being in the year 0...or 1 AD Gregorian. In actuality, since Herod the Great Monster died in 4 BC Gregorian, and ordered the deaths of the children in Bethlehem before he died, Yeshua had to have been born somewhere in 6 to 4 BC Gregorian. As there is some indication that the requisite conjunctions of Jupiter and other planets for the Star of Bethlehem happened in 6 or 5 BC Gregorian, there is added evidence to an earlier birth than 0 or 1 AD Gregorian.
As to the rest of your statements, they rest on a Biblically stated date of birth, not an actual astronomical year, whether counted along the Gregorian lines, or in the Hebrew Calendar and is mostly a matter of agreed upon notation. If you wish to have Yeshua die in a later year than is astronomically likely in time counted astronomically, and noted in both the Hebrew and Gregorian Calendars you may choose any year you wish, and any days for Yeshua's Crucifiction week that suits a 0 por 1 AD Gregorian Brith year. But you are neglecting the other necessary points of the entire story on the ground...including those children being killed in the attempt to get Yeshua killed as well.
Without being in agreement even on the calendar dates of Yeshua's life, we can't even discuss the rest. It's not a problem for me, but all those Christians have to begin to face the fact that the dates are wrong, as well as the possible days that Yeshua died and rose if we go by all the facts. And since I am not in an argumentative state of mind over the matter, you may use your year, and I will use mine, and both of us will not be bothered by it. Actually I assumed nothing of the sort. But if as you say Yeshua was born even later (4-6 yrs later) then 30 CE would have been earlier still, supporting my idea He was crucified in 36CE. As to your second paragraph, I have no idea about what you are saying. My statements rest not on a biblically stated date of birth (I know of no such statement), but on the information we are given in all the Gospels concerning His death. And though it sounds as if you are saying biblical evidence is not to be believed, I cannot think that is what you meant. Third paragraph- fine. We are majoring in the minors here, as my Dad would have said. The important thing is that we both believe Yeshua was the promised Messiah, He died for our sins and was raised to now act as our High Priest. Dan C
6 BCE plus 30 CE equals 35 to 37 years of life.
To me, every detail in the scriptures is there for a reason and makes sense. You are discounting details as not relevant to your theory.
Rosh Chodesh can occur on any day of the week, even if it is always the first day of an Israeli Calendar month...and has nothing to do with the Saturday Shabbat, but only the Festival Shabbats. Calendars are complicated, and not easily argued to those that do not work easily with calendars.
I tried to show you in detail how the days of the various years play out, as to me all the details, prophecies and statements need to be taken into account, and fitted together, because nothing in Scripture is there by accident. It all has meaning. It is true, though that explaining it all in detail is beyond my strength at this point, and would fill pages to no purpose when you are not interested in all the complexities fitting together, particularly if we are not even talking about the same year, even on the same calendars.
It would take weeks of writing to explain in detail all the ins and outs of what you are skimming over, and it is not important. Yeshua is risen, and that is enough for most people. I am merely one of those that have to see it all fit, so that I can describe it if I need to...to someone that cares about the details supporting not the fact that a resurrection took place, but why and how it took place the way it did, the time that it did, in the year that it did...to fulfill prophecy. And in prophecy, there are no majoring in the minors...every point and detail counts. |
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