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Post by alon on Feb 17, 2019 22:24:29 GMT -8
Actually I assumed nothing of the sort. But if as you say Yeshua was born even later (4-6 yrs later) then 30 CE would have been earlier still, supporting my idea He was crucified in 36CE.
To me, every detail in the scriptures is there for a reason and makes sense. You are discounting details as not relevant to your theory.
Yes, but you were very selective with which details you used, and the interpretation used as well.
"Majoring in the minors" refers to arguing things that will not effect our salvation. It does not mean any part of scripture is unimportant.
Dan C
Edit: 26, 33, and 36 CE Gregorian (3786, 3793, and 3796) all were years in which there was a Friday preparation day (Nissan 14). Take your pick, as any of those would fit with the biblical account and my timeline.
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Post by Questor on Feb 18, 2019 12:48:00 GMT -8
6 BCE plus 30 CE equals 35 to 37 years of life.
To me, every detail in the scriptures is there for a reason and makes sense. You are discounting details as not relevant to your theory.
I think you may be a little foggy minded. I get that way sometimes with meds. In the first statement you say Yeshua was born in the year "6 to 4 BC Gregorian." Then you say in the second that "6 BCE plus 30 CE equals 35 to 37 years of life." Makes it a little difficult to answer you.
If you count from 6 to 4 BC Gregorian...also known as 6 to 4 BCE, and add all the intervening years to 30 AD Gregorian, or 30 CE, you have a person in age from 37 to 35 years of age...depending on whether you count a 0 year in the calculations. I don't, and believe Yeshua to have been born well before the children were killed, which was also before Herod Died in 4 BCE...or the 'Wise Men' would not have found a 'child' in a house in Bethlehem, rather than a 'baby in a manger'.
Yes, but you were very selective with which details you used, and the interpretation used as well. "Majoring in the minors" refers to arguing things that will not effect our salvation. It does not mean any part of scripture is unimportant. Dan C Edit: 26, 33, and 36 CE Gregorian (3786, 3793, and 3796) all were years in which there was a Friday preparation day (Nissan 14). Take your pick, as any of those would fit with the biblical account and my timeline.[/quote] Can you give me the source for your Gregorian/Israeli Calendars? Because your weekdays in those years seem off to me. And why do you think it was a Friday, with such a short time in the grave?
And please note, I don't get groggy any more, since I am off of nearly all of those groggy making meds...but it does leave me with total exhaustion as I have no medication to prevent me from feeling every bit of the pain, and thus cannot push past the tiny bits of information I can get out before I get rather limp again. This could relate to why I can't spend hours writing at a time.
When exhaustion hits, I have to get out of the forum rather quickly, and I don't write well in pieces...in fact, I don't write well at all, or so I have been told. 
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Post by alon on Feb 18, 2019 16:55:32 GMT -8
You did not state that you thought Yeshua to have died on a Friday, and been resurrected after what seems to be a few hours in the grave before sunset on Friday, all of Saturday, and perhaps a few hours on Erev Sunday, after sunset...putting Yeshua as in the grave for about a day and a half, however inclusively counted...which seems to be rather less than the 'Sign of Jonah' that Yeshua stated would be the only proof given that evil generation (and all the generations since, of course.) You do not want three days and three nights in the tomb...why
The reason, as I said, for less than a full 74 hrs/3 days is that any part of a day in Hebrew thought was counted as a day.
Can you give me the source for your Gregorian/Israeli Calendars? Because your weekdays in those years seem off to me.
I just did an internet search and several sites gave those dates as being Fridays. Here's a couple real quick:
Passover_dates.htm
Here’s one that gives a good argument for the year 33 AD/CE:
www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/when-precisely-did-jesus-die-the-year-month-day-and-hour-revealed
And why do you think it was a Friday, with such a short time in the grave?
See above.
And please note, I don't get groggy any more, since I am off of nearly all of those groggy making meds...but it does leave me with total exhaustion as I have no medication to prevent me from feeling every bit of the pain, and thus cannot push past the tiny bits of information I can get out before I get rather limp again. This could relate to why I can't spend hours writing at a time.
Glad you are off those meds. I still have to take them. I have a standing order for some "good" pain meds, but I seldom take them because combined with what I have to take I get downright loopy! If I have to take extra meds or if I'm really tired I won't study or do much on the forum, because I'm like you, what I type is just nonsense. Worse, I can read what others say, but understanding it is a whole nuther animal!
Like I said, and if you do a search you'll find out, there are a lot of arguments for a lot of different dates. But according to the Gospels crucifixion to resurrection had to be the 6th, 7th, and 1st days of the week.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Feb 18, 2019 21:46:25 GMT -8
You did not state that you thought Yeshua to have died on a Friday, and been resurrected after what seems to be a few hours in the grave before sunset on Friday, all of Saturday, and perhaps a few hours on Erev Sunday, after sunset...putting Yeshua as in the grave for about a day and a half, however inclusively counted...which seems to be rather less than the 'Sign of Jonah' that Yeshua stated would be the only proof given that evil generation (and all the generations since, of course.) You do not want three days and three nights in the tomb...why
The reason, as I said, for less than a full 74 hrs/3 days is that any part of a day in Hebrew thought was counted as a day.
Can you give me the source for your Gregorian/Israeli Calendars? Because your weekdays in those years seem off to me.
I just did an internet search and several sites gave those dates as being Fridays. Here's a couple real quick:
Passover_dates.htm
Here’s one that gives a good argument for the year 33 AD/CE:
www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/when-precisely-did-jesus-die-the-year-month-day-and-hour-revealed
And why do you think it was a Friday, with such a short time in the grave?
See above.
And please note, I don't get groggy any more, since I am off of nearly all of those groggy making meds...but it does leave me with total exhaustion as I have no medication to prevent me from feeling every bit of the pain, and thus cannot push past the tiny bits of information I can get out before I get rather limp again. This could relate to why I can't spend hours writing at a time.
Glad you are off those meds. I still have to take them. I have a standing order for some "good" pain meds, but I seldom take them because combined with what I have to take I get downright loopy! If I have to take extra meds or if I'm really tired I won't study or do much on the forum, because I'm like you, what I type is just nonsense. Worse, I can read what others say, but understanding it is a whole nuther animal!
Like I said, and if you do a search you'll find out, there are a lot of arguments for a lot of different dates. But according to the Gospels crucifixion to resurrection had to be the 6th, 7th, and 1st days of the week.
Dan C
I don't buy the day and a half total in the grave as consistent with the one sign Yeshua gave even if counted as 'three inclusive days'. Jonah's three days and three nights in the belly of the large fish...that Yeshua stated was being given as the only sign of destroying a temple and making it rise again. If it was not to be the Three Days and Three Nights of the story of Jonah, why give it at all as the crucial Sign and Prophecy?
Inclusive counting is irrelevant to the experience of the First Century Jews with how long a man has to be dead to BE dead, with the soul absent from the body...which was not until a man had been dead for three days and nights.
Rising from a day and a half of death, although certainly possible, also doesn't match Yeshua's careful refusal to attend to Lazarus's dead body before the soul was presumed to have left the body, and I cannot help but look at that, not just as Yeshua wanting to be sure that everyone knew that Lazarus was totally gone before he was called back, but as a picture of what Yeshua's own time in a body that was no longer alive.
I know that people do not like to think of Yeshua 'having suffered corruption', but the human body begins to decay very rapidly after the heart stops...generally three minutes is enough to begin the damage, and it is the resurrection that prevented Yeshua from fleshly decay and corruption thereby for eternity. But resurrection, whether in three minutes, three days or three thousand years is all the same to G-d...whose power is being used to enliven and even change the flesh involved.
I look at what is consistent with what was prevalent in thought then, as per what is written in scripture and other writings about the culture, which simply did not think a person was gone from his body until after three days after death, as opposed to the knowledge I have from experience that my Father was long vacated from his body before his body was cold...the feel of death in your arms is unmistakable.
30 CE matches all that was necessary to happen if you require Yeshua to follow his own prophecy about his death and resurrection...and no other year does that fits all the other requirements to fit the Gospels.
It is interesting that from 25 CE to 37 CE there is only one year that fits a full three days in the grave with a Crucifixion on a Wednesday, while there are three convenient Fridays. People do not like to let go of the Anno Domani or Common Era having begun at Yeshua's birth, even though the calendars don't match the facts. It is why 33 CE is such a favourite with Christians...O AD plus 33 and a half years is so convenient, just as a Sabbath is a Sabbath to Christians when a High Holiday Sabbath is what matters.
24 CE was also a Wednesday Preparation Day for Pesach, but even with birth in 6 BCE, that doesn't make Yeshua old enough to do more than begin his ministry. But if Yeshua began his ministry at the earliest possible time (assuming Herod died in 4 BCE right after ordering the children in Bethlehem to be killed) beginning in Sukkot of 26 CE, that puts Yeshua's 3+ years of ministry ending rather nicely in Pesach of 30 CE.
However, a crucifixion on Wednesday or on Friday is irrelevant to the Resurrection, which happened on an Erev Sunday in some year in that early part of the First Century. And we can leave it there.
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Post by alon on Feb 19, 2019 0:19:03 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 (ESV) “And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.
It was against  to leave a dead body hanging overnight any time, especially on a Shabbat, any Shabbat. That it was almost Pesach might have made it especially urgent to get Him down. But according to they couldn’t have left it any time.
That you think I am accepting what is convenient is irrelevant. I accept what the Bible says. But you are so focused on the fact any Pesach is a Shabbat and that would make the day before a preparation day you miss the logical necessity that is right in front of you. It is that that particular Pesach is bracketed by the day of Yeshua’s death and burial (which just happened to be on the preparation day but which is also irrelevant) and by the 1st day of the week! Clear your mind and reread that, because it is essential to understand, but you seem to be so locked in to your timeline you can’t see it. That Pesach had to be on a 7th day Shabbat- so yes, I am locked into that because it is what all four Gospels tells me.
OK.
Jonah's three days and three nights in the belly of the large fish...that Yeshua stated was being given as the only sign of destroying a temple and making it rise again. If it was not to be the Three Days and Three Nights of the story of Jonah, why give it at all as the crucial Sign and Prophecy?
Because the essential truth is Jonah was entombed in the fish 3 days. And any part of a day would have counted as a day for Jonah as well. Again, we think in terms of 24 hrs being a day. The ancient Hebrews thought simpler terms.
There were four miracles the Messiah had to be able to perform:
1 – healing a leper- Luke 5:12-15
2 – casting out a mute demon- Matthew 12: 22-24
3 – healing a man born blind- John 9:1-7
4 – raising someone from the dead after three days- John 11: 1-44
Yeshua waited until the 4th day because He wanted to complete all 4 tasks only Messiah could do. Not because He wanted a perfect picture of his time in the tomb. And 4 days would take us past the three He Himself prophesied.
I said nothing about corruption.
We can leave it, but not “there.”
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Feb 19, 2019 8:09:32 GMT -8
Again, there are a lot of theories, explanations, timelines ... saying definitively "this is the one" is difficult to do. We can say "I believe this is the one because ..." But there are arguments pro and con for all of them. So if you want to leave it somewhere, that is the place I'd suggest.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Feb 19, 2019 12:02:20 GMT -8
[
I think that you are assuming that Yeshua died in 33CE. Looking at the chart I prepared below, that year's Pesach allows Two Nights, Two Days and a few hours in the grave...which under some counting methods, works as three full days, counting in the inclusive manner.
I personally take the Scriptures as stated...and the reference to Jonah by Yeshua is about being three days and three nights in the belly of the big fish.Jonah 1:17 (CJB)
17 Adonai prepared a huge fish to swallow Yonah; and Yonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.Could someone clear something up for me? Where are we told that Jesus will spend 3 days and 3 nights in the Tomb/Grave/Hell? The following is the only scripture that even comes close that I can find. Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. How is "the heart of the earth" equated to the Tomb/Grave/Hell? I think by the tradition/teaching of the catholic church. Suppose for a minute it is not the Tomb. What would it be? Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. What if "the heart of the earth" is the evil that prevails upon the earth? What if Jesus entered "the heart of the earth" when Judas kissed him? Then: night one - Kiss of Judas till the rooster crew. day one - rooster crow till sixth hour when darkness came night two - sixth hour till ninth hour when light returned day two - ninth hour till night fall the beginning of the Sabbath night three - Sabbath night day three - Sabbath day That is three complete dark and light cycles before the women show up as the sun is dawning on the first day of the week and find Jesus already risen. |
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Post by Questor on Feb 20, 2019 1:02:08 GMT -8
I think that you are assuming that Yeshua died in 33CE. Looking at the chart I prepared below, that year's Pesach allows Two Nights, Two Days and a few hours in the grave...which under some counting methods, works as three full days, counting in the inclusive manner.
I personally take the Scriptures as stated...and the reference to Jonah by Yeshua is about being three days and three nights in the belly of the big fish.Jonah 1:17 (CJB)
17 Adonai prepared a huge fish to swallow Yonah; and Yonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.Could someone clear something up for me? Where are we told that Jesus will spend 3 days and 3 nights in the Tomb/Grave/Hell? The following is the only scripture that even comes close that I can find. Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
38 At this some of the -teachers said, “Rabbi, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.”
39 He replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign? No! None will be given to it but the sign of the prophet Yonah.
40 For just as Yonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea-monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the depths of the earth.
Matthew 16:4 (CJB)
4 A wicked and adulterous generation is asking for a sign? It will certainly not be given a sign — except the sign of Yonah!” With that he left them and went off.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (CJB)
3 For among the first things I passed on to you was what I also received, namely this: the Messiah died for our sins, in accordance with what the Tanakh says;
4 and he was buried; and he was raised on the third day, in accordance with what the Tanakh says;
Luke 11:29-30 (CJB)
29 As the people crowded around him, Yeshua went on to say, “This generation is a wicked generation! It asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it — except the sign of Yonah.
30 For just as Yonah became a sign to the people of Ninveh, so will the Son of Man be for this generation.The proper use of the words from Hebrew helps define matters, although even the CJB is not perfect, but it was translated by an Orthodox Jew from CA who became Messianic, and translated the Greek into modern Hebrew, and then into modern English...which clarifies things a bit.
How is "the heart of the earth" equated to the Tomb/Grave/Hell? I think by the tradition/teaching of the catholic church. Suppose for a minute it is not the Tomb. What would it be? Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. What if "the heart of the earth" is the evil that prevails upon the earth? What if Jesus entered "the heart of the earth" when Judas kissed him?
But the Greek actually states it as the 'heart of the earth', almost as if the tomb for Yeshua was a warm and loving place...a space of gentle rest between one painful experiential kind of humanity and a perfected marvellous one in which everything is complete:The Sign of Jonah
1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep
3588 [e]
tē
τῇ
the
Art-DFS
2588 [e]
kardia
καρδίᾳ
heart
N-DFS
3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
of the
Art-GFS
1093 [e]
gēs
γῆς
earth
N-GFS
5140 [e]
treis
τρεῖς
three
Adj-AFP
2250 [e]
hēmeras
ἡμέρας
days
N-AFP
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
5140 [e]
treis
τρεῖς
three
Adj-AFP
3571 [e]
nyktas
νύκτας .
nights
N-AFP
Then: night one - Kiss of Judas till the rooster crew. day one - rooster crow till sixth hour when darkness came night two - sixth hour till ninth hour when light returned day two - ninth hour till night fall the beginning of the Sabbath night three - Sabbath night day three - Sabbath day That is three complete dark and light cycles before the women show up as the sun is dawning on the first day of the week and find Jesus already risen.
Tuesday Night was the last Supper, and the eventual kiss of betrayal late at night, perhaps in the midnight hour; Then four rather strange trials happened in swift succession, so this night's activities, and the following morning's were all well planned!
Daytime Wednesday Yeshua was Crucified on Preparation Day for Pesach by about 12:00pm, died about 3:00pm; was put in the tomb before sunset prior to about 7:00pm; and Passover and the Feast of Matza begins just after sunset.
1) Wednesday Night after sunset Pesach begins, and the first full night in the tomb begins;
Daytime Thursday is the first full day in the tomb; This is the High Holiday Shabbat.
2) Thursday Night was the 2nd full night in the Tomb, and Daytime Friday is the 2nd full day in the Tomb; was a normal business day and oils and spices could be bought and prepared.
Salves do take some time to simmer into a fragrant goo. They are an infusion of the spices and gummy substances in oil that are simmered for hours, then strained from the oil to give a smooth perfumed oil to anoint the body as an act of love...shavings of sandalwood and cinnamon, other aromatic gums, often heavily mixed with Frankincense, which is considered somewhat holy, and a little of the bitter Myrrh, as it represents death throughout the scriptures.
3) Friday Night is the third full night in the tomb and Daytime Saturday the third full day in the 'heart of the earth'; and is a Saturday Shabbat, on which no work could be done, not even anointing the dead.
Saturday Night after 7:00pm, Shabbat is over, the three days and nights in the tomb are complete, and Yeshua can rise directly after Sunset on the Feast of First Fruits, which is the first Sunday in Western terminology after Passover in any year, but begins as soon as the sun sets the previous evening. However, it being dark, the women would not have gone to the tomb until first light, at about 5:30 am Sunday Morning, finding the tomb opened by the Angels so that everyone could see there was no one there.
To me this week fits everything in all the gospels perfectly, but I do agree that it is the resurrection just after sunset on Saturday evening (Erev Sunday) that is important...and not after midnight in the Roman Calendar and way of counting time.
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Post by alon on Feb 20, 2019 8:38:17 GMT -8
Questor, that is the clearest statement of what you believe so far, and that Yeshua said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb is the strongest evidence for your case. I am going to have to think about this, but right now I don't have time. I'll get back to you.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 28, 2019 12:46:12 GMT -8
I thought I would put this up here, not to argue anything, but because it may interest people regarding this topic. I have considered that He celebrated a type of "practice" Seder before but had never heard this explanation. I wouldn't have posted this had it not mentioned support for this actually having happened in the Talmud as in my oppinion it's too speculative to consider apart from that fact. Anyway, I know less than anyone else on the topic and I'm uncomfortable being definitive about any of it because I don't know enough about the Hebrew calendar and such. Nevertheless, I thought it worth reading based on the issues you both brought up trying to reconcile the events. I do believe He was crucified on the 14th and rose on First Fruits one way or another just because it is consistent with what I know about G-d, His Torah, and my own faith. www.bethimmanuel.org/articles/last-supper-or-last-sederAnother, thing I want to ask is just for my own personal confidence. I'm going to make a few Passover gift baskets for some of my believing friends because they are my friends and I want them to hear and know what has blessed me. In all this, I got kind of excited and started praying for the chance to do a Seder of my own with my family as my parents may visit during that time. Then, wouldn't you know, I came upon an article about how offensive it is to Jewish people when non-Jews do that. According to the author of that article, Yeshua kept nothing like what the Jews are today regarding the Seder and so our connection to keep it through Him is then not there. That's hard for me as that's how I get past the whole issue of doing something Jewish when I'm not Jewish. If Yeshua kept it, I can, but if He didn't that's a whole different issue. So I'm curious about the development of the ritual; a comparison of what takes place today in Judaism to what took place in His time. It struck me that because the Temple was standing, that it must be more different than I've come to understand. However, as that was the second Temple standing during His time on earth, there is room for something like the Seder today having already been established in the Judaism of His time. So I just want some more knowledge about how we understand Yeshua's knowledge and participation in the Seder ritual as it is today. What parts would He have been done by Him, and what parts developed later? I see the symbolism of Him in it, and I know that should be enough, but I am still curious if it does reflect what He was doing at that time as much as we say. Also, how the Temple standing at the time effects it just so I'm more confident in my own understanding and participation. After, thinking more about all the above, I realized that there also may be parts I should just choose not to do as His follower. |
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Post by alon on Mar 28, 2019 15:45:33 GMT -8
... I have considered that He celebrated a type of "practice" Seder before ...
"There are instances in the TNK when feasts were observed on different days as necessity demanded. One in particular concerned Pesach itself, when those who were tumah (ritually unavailable/unclean) were allowed to perform the seder later. So the argument it was a different day does not hold water. Yeshua desired to eat the Passover meal with them. What part of that leaves room for ambiguity?
Luke 22:10 (ESV) He said to them, “Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him into the house that he enters
So, was Yeshua being prophetic here? Or was He being logical?
Either could be argued, but I am going to argue for "logical," with maybe a hint of the prophetic.
Drawing water was typically womens work, which they performed in the cool of the day. And women being, well, women, I am sure this was a social ritual as well. So if you were to see a man drawing water after the women had left and men, being men wanted to miss the clutch of hens pecking for gossip; well he was either a bachelor or an Essene. There were Essene houses all over Israel at the time, inhabited by men who were there for charitable service. If you followed a man to his house, and it was a large house, then likely he was an Essene. If you asked the master of the house he would certainly have prepared for you a Pesach meal- .."
As was pointed out in the artical, the Essenes themselves celebrated Pesach earlier, so they likely had no problem providing a suitable lamb. And as their service was charitable, and this was a famous Rabbi and His disciples, and as He was at the time the most likely candidate to be Mesiah, my guess is they were honored to give these men a full Pesach seder meal.
I absolutely agree. The details may be a bit fuzzy, but that much is, I think a certainty.
That depends. Many don't like us doing anything they do. They don't even like our existance. Others are more accepting, even open to Christians (which is what we are to them) learning more about Judaism. Most are somewhere in between, though probably more to the "don't like it" end of the spectrum. Many years ago and AoG pastor friend (who is now Eastern Orthodox- go figure) and our wives wanted to do a seder, though we knew it wasn't going to be exactly as "the Jews" did it. We went to a synagogue in the nearest city and talked to the Rabbi there, and he helped us. Gave us a seder, recipes, a few tips. So not all Jews are offended, some are to varying degrees.
I don't base what I do on what others may think. If I did, I wouldn't be Messianic. I try to be respectful of them, their traditions and customs. Tzitzyot are a good example. Many do not like us wearing them, especially on belt loops. Well, even though the loops are more convenient in many ways, unless I am working around power equipment (safety) I won't use the loops. I wear a tallit katan, just as they do. However the fact remains it is a comandment to wear tzitzyot, so like it or not folks, I do wear them.
Yeshua was Jewish, and He kept Pesach. So the sin for a believer is to not keep it. The argument that His seder was not like they do today is ridiculous! Their seder is not the same as any practiced in the 1st cen either. A seder is just an order of service, and that evolves over time even within the same sect. Their real problem is that as Messianics or as Christians trying to understand more we necessarily add Yeshua, the reason for the season so to speak. And what really galls them is that even in the later traditions in their sederim Yeshua is evident. The Pesach seder was a prophetic- a minute by minute script for the death, burial and resurrection of HaMoshiach, Yeshua.
A seder is a relaxed meal, but more than that it is an instructional order of service wherein the basics of the Jewish faith are explained and taught every year. And for us, even moreso because we see its fulfillment in Yeshua.
I don't believe a 1st cen seder still exists. There are hints in some historical writings of Philo, probably Josephus, and others. But not a complete seder (that I know of anyhow). So I don't think a historically accurate reproduction exists either. However the biblical elements are there in most contemporary sederim. So I'd suggest you make it easy and follow one of them. The parent synagogue here put up a seder here once:
www.heartofisrael.org/pubs/Haggadah4.pdfYou have to purchase theirs. I used to have some online that were free, but lost them when my computer crashed (before I got the good sense to get a Mac!). If you do a search I am sure you can find a good seder for free. But make sure of the source. There is a lot of weirdness which tries to attach to our movement.
Here is another source. I'm hesitant to put it up because Biltz is Hebrew Roots so there is a lot (most of) on his site that is just bad. But years ago I bought his DVD set "Feasts of the Lord," and he did a really good job. That was long before he got caught up in all that "blood moon" craziness, so I don't know what the newer set is like. But it is really inexpensive for what you get. Also he has a downloadable seder for a buck. I never saw it, so can't recomend it. Bt for the price, it might be worth checking out. Here's the link:
shop.elshaddaiministries.us/Passover_c35.htmMost Jewish sederim would likely be ok. They just obviously won't have Yeshua in them. As I said, be careful of those claiming to be Messianic. The biggest difference in the days of the Temple and now is we don't sacrifice a lamb. Chicken is probably the most common meat of a seder today, though I suppose a lamb would be ok as long as it wasn't sacrificed.
Bottom line, don't let anyone tell you not to celebrate Passover with a seder. And don't let them criticize your efforts, either. It may not be as anyone else ever did it before, but if it is the best you can do, it's good enough. Hopefully you'll improve next year.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 29, 2019 5:19:54 GMT -8
I wasn't considering not observing Passover. I just want more information about what's going on with the Seder and current Jewish practices as I'm giving my friends information about this. I just worry about people and so didn't want to drag them into a situation where they could be questioned or criticised blindly by friends or relatatives because their wanna-be-Jewish friend gave them Matzah ( I mean I really need to defend that move. I'm getting used to it, and last year I actually kind of enjoyed it, but Matzah for a gift.....I'm going to have to do some explaining.)  I just want to explain what I'm doing and why we should and can do it because though the plain and simple is that's it's a commandment, the reality is that for the last two thousand years Jewish people have generally not been walking with G-d and so beyond preparing them to defend against Jewish people not liking what we're doing, I also want to make sure the rituals I'm telling my friends about ( in the hopes to plant seeds to want to do) should be done. For example, I have my doubts about the little last preparation day chametz hunt. First, I don't feel comfortable making a game of G-d's commandments. Second, I think it may be a later development in answer to the easter egg hunt. I don't know, but for some reason, I'm not convinced we should go along with that. Then, from that line of thinking, I started looking more intently at the Seder ritual itself regarding any developments that happened after Judaism rejected the will of G-d. I tend to agree with you based on my own experience and understanding reading through it. I feel G-d has kept it in spite of them falling away, but since I'm passing on this info to others I'm not comfortable just basing it on my own feeling or spiritual experience of it. about ut an hour later- I really do need a lot of prayers to be braver and more confident about all of this. It seems every time I start making ground being more outgoing about my life, I somehow run into a Jewish person and then I start getting worried about offending and the reality of upsetting people whose historical difficulties I can't really relate to hits me. I feel so guilty, and really alone in all this. Then, honestly it seems every time I start getting more determined I somehow meet a Jewish person, which isn't likely in this town as there isn't a large Jewish population let alone an outwardly Jewish person. It causes the reality of me being alone in all of this to just hit me as I can't even depend on my own household to support me in this. I know satan is trying to shut me up, and G-d will expect more of me at some point so I need prayers. I worry what I'm dragging people into, how it's going to effect my children, offending people who already have enough assault on their identity to deal with, and the whole feeling of the explanation of this lifestyle and belief kind of hinging on me and my knowledge and experience scares me. |
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Post by alon on Mar 29, 2019 10:57:30 GMT -8
I just worry about people and so didn't want to drag them into a situation where they could be questioned or criticised blindly by friends or relatatives because their wanna-be-Jewish friend gave them Matzah ( I mean I really need to defend that move. I'm getting used to it, and last year I actually kind of enjoyed it, but Matzah for a gift.....I'm going to have to do some explaining.) I just want to explain what I'm doing and why we should and can do it because though the plain and simple is that's it's a commandment, the reality is that for the last two thousand years Jewish people have generally not been walking with G-d and so beyond preparing them to defend against Jewish people not liking what we're doing, I also want to make sure the rituals I'm telling my friends about ( in the hopes to plant seeds to want to do) should be done.
Children learn by playing games more than by just being told. So properly supervised and explained, that chametz hunt can be a powerful learning tool. But I do agree that one of the things they should learn is a certain ammount of reverence whie having fun. And having been raised Baptist, I can tell you it is just as important they learn reverence CAN BE fun! And that tradition goes way back. Had it been developed after Yeshua,I doubt the Jews would have placed that much obvious symbolism in the tradition. That's just speculation, of course. But I wouldn't worry about it (I know, my wife tells me women have to worry about everything, but I wouldn't about this).
I mention you in my prayers daily, by name. And I hope the encouragement here helps. Look back since yo joined the forum. How many have come and gone, yet you are still here. You've remained faithful in some very difficult circumstances. So share with your friends and let God worry about what they or others think. And you are right, the enemy will keep placing people and circumstances in your path to discourage you. I can tell you it sounds like you are actually reaching more people than I do.
I often feel that all I am called to do here where I live is maybe encourage a few Christians to take a closer look at scripture and maybe think a bit more. But I can't even get the few self proclaimed Messianics here to come to synagogue, let alone any Christians. And I look at the forum numbers and wonder why I bother sometimes. But God is faithful, and He prepared me for this. While I was still in the church I headed a ministry for those with disabilities and medical conditions. It was growing, but was effectively destroyed by one well meaning brother. I won't go into details, but there were months when I was the only one showing up to meetings. And about the time I was about to throw in the towel, someone would come in who needed help; usually just someone to commiserate and pray with. Had I quit, I would not have been there for them. He showed me His economy is not the same as mine. I wanted the numbers, but He wanted people who were willing to remain faithful and be there when they were needed. Drat! (j/k) Since those people, themselves faithful in their obvious misery and distress were able to reach far more than me, I'd say He knew what He was doing.
You, faithful in your situation there alone are an inspiration to me and, I imagine to others. Stay the course, and don't let the enemy rob you and others the blessing of learning through these very beautiful rituals of His people. And realize the more people understand about the blessings they inherit from the Jewish people, the less they are likely to distrust and hate them.
In Yeshua,
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 29, 2019 16:11:24 GMT -8
I'm sure your doing more than you realize. I just reached out to some friends I had lost touch with. I am trying to be more vocal for the few I know who really do seem to love G-d. Otherwise, I'm accountable for not speaking and not a good friend. I would hate to let anyone down because I'm struggling to get over my own issues so just pushing myself to be more welcoming and outgoing about it. I could miss out on seeing them do well and be blessed as well so just stupid not to share anyway.
I'm just trying to overcome my own issues. I'm a total introvert so it is a real challenge for me to open up to people. I'm also a natural worrier, but I want to see G-d bless people and I know I need to share with them because they are seeking Him and want to please Him.
As long as I see Him move somewhere, somehow as I open up, I think I'll be fine. But my faith will be really challenged if I don't feel Him with me, helping me because I do feel responsible for the result of speaking up as I'm kind of on my own in my beliefs in terms of other people in my life. Meanwhile, I still struggle explaining how that came to be. I'm also still trying to move on from the demonic attack. I know He didn't fail me or let me down. He got me through more then I even know or recall, but it blindsided me so shook my faith.
I also don't want to cause trouble in people's lives, but that's not how He works in lives. So if there's trouble caused, but I can see Him moving and doing some good and joy somewhere in it, I'll be ok. I just worry because this is a hard life we signed up for and I haven't really seen Him move in other people's lives in a good way from a Messianic context yet so it's a step of faith for me.
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- there are 70 faces to 
