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Post by chrisg on Jan 15, 2019 5:49:51 GMT -8
My congregation has just started going through Philippians. On Sunday just gone, we looked at vv3-11 of chapter 1. V6 was used to hang a lot of 'once saved, always saved' doctrine on. Can anyone elaborate as to whether this verse does indeed teach this doctrine?
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Post by alon on Jan 15, 2019 13:02:18 GMT -8
My congregation has just started going through Philippians. On Sunday just gone, we looked at vv3-11 of chapter 1. V6 was used to hang a lot of 'once saved, always saved' doctrine on. Can anyone elaborate as to whether this verse does indeed teach this doctrine? Christians tend to pull a verse and use it out of context in order to support whatever doctrine they hold. The 2 I quote here however illustrate what this entire passage is about- it is Rav Shaul's trying to encourage them as well as himself. It expresses his confidence in them that they will stay the course, and in God that as long as they do He will do His part. The lie of "once saved always saved" can be clearly illustrated in the people who leave the faith and never return. There was no "completion" of any good work in them. Or did God fail? Did He lie? No, they exercised free will and apostatized. Yet how many of them were their pastors and church family "confident ... that He who began a good work in (them would) perfect it?" We've all been shocked by people who left. Some not so much, but others, yes. It's part of that "every word is God breathed just for us" mindset. "That must have been prophecy." No, it was a letter which was sent to a specific group of people. People who needed encouragement, from a man whose circumstances were such he needed to encourage himself as well. The church tends to think of Paul as some sort of superman. He was brilliant, and had more determination and pure stubbornness and a deeper faith than most. But he was still a man. So as a man (or woman) in some sort of trouble, and your church family is helping you out, what would you say to them? "Some of you will fall away, but in the meantime I appreciate what you are doing for me." Or would you say something more like what Paul said? I think the latter. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 15, 2019 15:39:42 GMT -8
I think people are having the wrong debate here. The doctrine being debated calls into question G-d's wisdom and faithfulness if you really think about it. That's not an issue, the issue is our faithfulness and whether we really have any. G-d saves in truth and perfection, there must be then sincere repentance and true faith to participate in His salvation.
I don't think the issue is once saved always saved as much as people who were never truly saved just being revealed by falling away. We are told the seed that falls in good ground are those who hear the word and understand it, they produce fruit. But we are also told there are also those who hear the word, receive it with joy initially but it takes no root or others who are choked away by other worries over time. So there are those will be with us for a while, but ultimately produce no evidence of faith. Yet, we are saved by grace through faith so they were never saved because it seems they had no faith.
If Yeshua has you, it's because you have a heart of sincere repentance and faith in Him. Then I believe you clearly also have every reason to have complete faith in that salvation. You're saved. We need to have a salvation we don't doubt by the nature of faith. You will be disciplined and such for your disobedience but that's because you're saved. Those who fall away, were never saved or they will return after discipline with increased faith if they are.
G-d can't be fooled. He knows the heart. He is faithful, but He is not deceived even if we are. Yeshua loses none that belong to Him. The issue isn't once saved always saved, but rather, sifting out those never saved or strengthening the faith of weak ones that are. There are those who are with us for a while and say they're of us but aren't and so in truth never were. (1 John 2:19)
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Post by chrisg on Jan 17, 2019 1:41:58 GMT -8
The lie of "once saved always saved" can be clearly illustrated in the people who leave the faith and never return. There was no "completion" of any good work in them. Or did God fail? Did He lie? No, they exercised free will and apostatized. Yet how many of them were their pastors and church family "confident ... that He who began a good work in (them would) perfect it?" The prevailing teaching among UK evangelicals is that these people were never saved in the first place and only made a pretence of it, or tried it and it didn't suit them, but the Word never took real root in their hearts. |
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Post by chrisg on Jan 17, 2019 1:45:58 GMT -8
Having been Mennonite before coming to  , I have been convinced of the OSAS doctrine as false for over 20 years. There are too many 'ifs' - you will be saved IF you persevere; he who ENDURES to the end will be saved. If we don't endure, if we don't persevere, then we fall away. OSAS makes a nonsense of the doctrine of apostasy - there is no such thing if falling away is impossible. However, the Pastor made a reasonable case last Sunday based on Phil 1v6 - I just wondered how to counter his view without giving him a full-length sermon myself |
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Post by alon on Jan 17, 2019 2:49:49 GMT -8
I was raised Southern Baptist, and they are big on the doctrine of "Eternal Security of the Believer," by which they mean once saved, always saved. So I am very familiar with the reasoning which says those people were never saved in te first place. But I am with you: there is just too much evidence that suggests we can still exercise free will (and it is a biblical principle God will never interfere with that) and walk away:
Philippians 3:17-18 (ESV) Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.
But they will deny it means that, and likely counter with a favorite:
John 10:28-29 (ESV) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
This even though you just told them we can't be snatched, but can walk away. Those in error often think stating or restating an argument after it was proven false somehow makes it true. No, it just makes it twice false. But I digress:
The one they have the most difficulty explaining away is:
Romans 11:17-23 (ESV) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of richness of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Be prepared, they will go through a lot of convoluted reasonings to deny this says what it clearly does. I mean, this practically stands up and shouts "eternal security as you practice it is false!" But there is none so deaf as he who is willfully blind. Face it, if they won't see it, they won't hear it either. I guess unless you have some need to persuade them, or if you yourself need persuading, then this one might best be left alone. It is not a doctrine that will effect their salvation.
That said, if they are not hammering down hard on repentance being a necessary part of the salvation process and obedience (at least in the Christian sense- better if Messianic) being necessary as part of their walk, then this doctrine can do a lot of damage. There are a LOT of people in churches today who think all they had to do was to say "The Sinners Prayer" and they are forever saved, even if they choose to live in abject sin and depravity. I HATE that prayer, because it has sent more people to Hell than pornography or drugs. But it is big in most Christian "circles." I'm sorry, but if they have to repeat a form prayer as you "lead" them through it, the likelihood of their being saved is pretty slim. And if you have not shown them enough that they can say their own heartfelt prayer, you haven't done your job in showing them. So if they are one of those groups like I just described, I'd hit them upside the head with Romans 11:17-23 and go on from there. It may be worth your time and effort to try and convince them.
Just beware, if they are like that, there will be a few who "walk as enemies of the cross of Christ," and now you. They won't like being told the truth; worse yet that you are telling others the truth. They may come at you hard, so be prepared. Hold firm in what you know to be true. I wish you success, but the fact is if you come away with your own beliefs intact, I'll be happy! They can be a persuasive bunch, as you just saw with this pastor.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 17, 2019 5:34:46 GMT -8
I'm going to read this more. Romans also discusses an elect G-d keeps for Himself and those He hardens who fall away; having mercy on whom He will and hardening Whom He will. Also the context of Romans 11 is more national than individual from what I read. I'll tell you the main reason I disagree with you is that I know the logic can be turned and has been turned by Christians to say G-d's done with Israel. If we can have faith in His faithfulness to Israel; then the same G-d He is for us. G-d is faithful but He's not fooled. They return, they repent in truth, they submit - He'll save them. That's the nature of the New Covenant.
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Post by chrisg on Jan 17, 2019 7:42:20 GMT -8
That said, if they are not hammering down hard on repentance being a necessary part of the salvation process and obedience (at least in the Christian sense- better if Messianic) being necessary as part of their walk, then this doctrine can do a lot of damage. There are a LOT of people in churches today who think all they had to do was to say "The Sinners Prayer" and they are forever saved, even if they choose to live in abject sin and depravity. I HATE that prayer, because it has sent more people to Hell than pornography or drugs. But it is big in most Christian "circles." I'm sorry, but if they have to repeat a form prayer as you "lead" them through it, the likelihood of their being saved is pretty slim. And if you have not shown them enough that they can say their own heartfelt prayer, you haven't done your job in showing them. So if they are one of those groups like I just described, I'd hit them upside the head with Romans 11:17-23 and go on from there. It may be worth your time and effort to try and convince them. Just beware, if they are like that, there will be a few who "walk as enemies of the cross of Christ," and now you. They won't like being told the truth; worse yet that you are telling others the truth. They may come at you hard, so be prepared. Hold firm in what you know to be true. I wish you success, but the fact is if you come away with your own beliefs intact, I'll be happy! They can be a persuasive bunch, as you just saw with this pastor. Dan C Thankfully, they are not of the mind that 'you can get saved and live as you like but you'll still be saved'. They do think and teach that if your life does not show fruit of repentance, then you are not repentant and therefore not saved. My own beliefs are definitely still intact. It would take more than one sermon to overturn 20 years of understanding the error of the OSAS doctrines Elizabeth, my first questions on this subject arose because of Hebrews 6v4-6. No matter how much people tried to tell me that this refers to those who are not saved, I could not and did not accept that - the description can only be of one who is saved |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 17, 2019 9:22:11 GMT -8
There are examples of people enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift, and partaking in the Spirit of G-d but nevertheless not saved - Hagar, Esau, Pharaoh, Judas. Perhaps even Balaam and the adversary himself. G-d was faithful to offer salvation and truth. He is just and blameless as He revealed Himself to them in truth, but they simply said no to His way. I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about that mentality. People who agree to "salvation" on their own conditions, but our salvation is unconditionally based on the faithfulness of G-d as our G-d. They cannot be saved on their own way or conditions, and so they simply never agreed with G-d. Then there's no covenant between them and Him; so no covenantal relationship- no salvation. If we can lose salvation, you're saying G-d can break a covenant because it's based on covenental relationship that is dependent on Him.
Yeshua gives eternal life when He saves us, that is absolutely defining and the hope we are grounded on as those saved, but He doesn't play games. He knew Judas would betray Him. He knew Judas did not belong to Him but was with Him so scripture would be fulfilled. (John 17:12). Yeshua even points Him out before the betrayal so we can know, He knew this and Judas was not saved.
There are some among us who will fulfill the scripture of apostasy (Matthew 25:10-12), or just agree to be saved but on their terms for a while. They are blessed just to participate on some level, and who doesn't want eternal life? Yet, then they aren't saved and Yeshua Himself will reveal them for the sake of truth. Those truly saved are promised to show the fruit of their salvation as we are conformed to His image. (Romans 8:28)
Hebrew 6 goes on to discuss those referred to in verses 4-6 I think; those producing briars after hearing the Gospel and participating in it on their own terms will fall away. That has to happen for the sake of truth and mercy. G-d is completely aware of who is His and who isn't, but He does His part. Their unfaithfulness doesn't change Who He is and He knew them before hand as He does all of us. Also the fact they can't repent is evident of no salvation in my mind as those saved have to be able to repent to live out our salvation and sanctification.
I think the ones in 4-6 knew the truth, used it while it suited them, then refused the work of salvation in their life. If so, then they never agreed to salvation as they didn't submit to G-d. That is shown in that they did not producing fruit so that G-d is shown blameless and just in cutting them off.
That's how I understand it, but that's a hard verse. I just know that those saved can have complete faith in their salvation and that Yeshua's work is complete and perfect. If He has you through sincere submission to Him, He will keep you. We don't need to fear losing a gift based on a covenant G-d Himself upholds and fulfills. Otherwise, everything we believe in from His promises, to Israel's place, to the very work of Yeshua is undermined - the entire source of our salvation and the context it was given in is undermined.
G-d is eternal, Yeshua's work is eternal, salvation is eternal. I think when we start poking holes in this, too much becomes questionable and we see the foundation just starts falling away so it can't be true. It calls into question the character by G-d and I think that's why things start to crumble.
G-d invites all and is going to go through whatever they need Him to so that the truth is revealed that He did His part and is blameless regarding those who refuse Him. I think the issue is sone lie or done just don't understand yet what they're agreeing to, and in time Hevreveaks the truth and so we just see them fall away. But those who are saved can always repent. If there's a limit to that, then again we start bringing into question His character and promises and things start to crumble so I don't believe that verse is about those saved.
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Post by alon on Jan 17, 2019 10:45:55 GMT -8
There are examples of people enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift, and partaking in the Spirit of G-d but nevertheless not saved - Hagar, Esau, Pharaoh, Judas. Perhaps even Balaam and the adversary himself. G-d was faithful to offer salvation and truth. He is just and blameless as He revealed Himself to them in truth, but they simply said no to His way. I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about that mentality. People who agree to "salvation" on their own conditions, but our salvation is unconditionally based on the faithfulness of G-d as our G-d. They cannot be saved on their own way or conditions, and so they simply never agreed with G-d. Then there's no covenant between them and Him; so no covenantal relationship- no salvation. If we can lose salvation, you're saying G-d can break a covenant because it's based on covenental relationship that is dependent on Him. God does not break the covenant, ever. But He won't stop us from breaking it- again, ever. Let's take one from your list- there are others, but one will suffice to illustrate the point. It is very likely, in fact almost a certainty that Judas was saved. After all, he was chosen as a disciple by Yeshua. I don't buy the Christian teaching that he was allowed to tag along just to show us the unsaved are among us. Do you realize what harm such a one could have done in THAT camp? How many could be led into falsehoods by such a man? Judas actions may not have been betrayal at all. Hear me out. There were many who wanted Yeshua to start and lead a rebellion against Rome. He was after all the Crown Prince of Israel and the man by far most likely to be the Messiah! Judas may have been of this persuasion. If so, it must have been frustrating to listen to Him speak of things like "turn the other cheek." Selling Yeshua out would fill the coffers and force the issue all at the same time. And he almost got what he wanted! The man whose ear Peter cut off was the next in line to become High Priest. We know this from extra-biblical writings. He was a Roman lackey, and no man with a deformity could be a priest, let alone High Priest. That war was just the one gesture of Yeshua replacing the ear away from happening. We have the luxury of looking back and judging these people and events from our safe perspective. But they must be judged from the perspective of those there, and the political realities of the time in which they occurred. For instance, haven't you ever asked yourself why, after seeing Yeshua replacing a severed ear, would those men not have fell on their faces before Him? The reality is that Old Testament prophets had done many such wonders. And the sadder part of that reality is many of them had been killed because of their message. Yeshua was to be no different. When Judas saw what he had done was about to get Yeshua killed, he fell apart. That says to me he probably did not get the result he expected. He didn't intend Yeshua to become a prisoner. He expected an uprising as Yeshua threw the Romans into the Mediterranean. Now I am sure you are thinking this is all fantasy; alon has gone off the rails here. But I would submit to you it is no more fantasy than the common understanding that Judas was unsaved, a traitor in the camp. But neither you nor the church fathers who originally perpetrated this view can know the heart condition or the salvific state of Judas. You don't know what he was thinking, any more than I do. This is just another possibility. But I put it to you, if my theory is right, is Judas still saved? Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 17, 2019 11:21:50 GMT -8
I didn't base that on assumptions or anything I heard in the church, I based that on scripture.
Acts 1:17-20
Mathew 26:21-25
Also, how is it those saved cannot repent as said in Hebrew 6? Who would then be saved?
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Post by alon on Jan 17, 2019 12:47:04 GMT -8
I didn't base that on assumptions or anything I heard in the church, I based that on scripture. Acts 1:17-20 Mathew 26:21-25 Also, how is it those saved cannot repent as said in Hebrew 6? Who would then be saved?
“‘May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it’;
and
“‘Let another take his office.’ This says nothing about whether or not he was ever saved before the events of that day. Matthew 26:21-25 (ESV) And as they were eating, he said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, “Is it I, Lord?” He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”Again, nothing about his salvation. In fact, this would support my theory since Judas, apparently having some doubts now about what he was about to do, asks “Is it I, Rabbi?” Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.That passage very plainly says those who were saved and then fall away cannot be restored. This would support my understanding, that you can be saved and choose to walk away. Remember too, the term “saved” is a contemporary one. The Greek term translated “salvation” in our Bibles is σωτηρία soteria, which according to Thayer’s implies salvation more in the sense of deliverance, preservation, or safety and health. In fact, look at the difference in the Wycliffe Bible of the 1380’s and a more contemporary rendering: Hebrews 6:9 (Wycliffe Bible) But, ye most dear-worthy, we trust of you better things, and near(er) to health, though we speak so.
Hebrews 6:9 (ESV) Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.
If you were to ask a 1st cen Jew about being saved, they’d probably be puzzled, then explain that only occurs at death if you have walked out your life with God. You either worshiped the God of Israel alone and had a personal walk with Him, or you didn’t. Christianity tends to view “salvation” as an event when you accept Yeshua/God, and this does have merit. Ruth probably had such a moment. Naomi, on the other hand, was raised worshiping only the God of Israel. Both women had an incredible walk of faith and trust in their God after Ruth refused to leave Naomi. And I am sure both women sinned and repented many times, but Ruth being born Gentile would have had that moment when she repented not only for those sins she had accumulated in her life, but turned away from her family, her gods, and her country to follow a new God, the God of Naomi; the God of Israel. Hebrews 6:4-6 must be understood not only in the context of the times, but of the preceding chapter and verses. This was a discourse on their being in the faith so long, yet still being on milk and not solid food. It is a difficult one to understand, and I don’t really understand it fully, since there are examples of those who either fell away or rebelled and yet repented and were forgiven and used by God: Samson, Jonah, and Israel itself. However if taken in its literal sense, that passage absolutely contradicts the once saved always saved doctrine. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jan 17, 2019 12:59:17 GMT -8
Elizabeth, you are not one I am worried about whether or not you are saved. I'm reasonably sure (as sure as anyone can be about another) that you are. And like I said, this is not a doctrine that is going to effect your salvation. So if you want to discuss it, I will. But keep in mind it is not one worth killing (metaphorically) over. So in the end, if you still wish to hold to that doctrine, so be it. I abandoned it, and I can give you my reasons. I encourage you to think about what I say, as you have caused me to have to think. In the end, it's worth pursuing and studying to understand this, but if we never really understand the issue, it ain't gonna bar us from Heaven.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 17, 2019 13:05:36 GMT -8
Elizabeth, you are not one I am worried about whether or not you are saved. I'm reasonably sure (as sure as anyone can be about another) that you are. And like I said, this is not a doctrine that is going to effect your salvation. So if you want to discuss it, I will. But keep in mind it is not one worth killing (metaphorically) over. So in the end, if you still wish to hold to that doctrine, so be it. I abandoned it, and I can give you my reasons. I encourage you to think about what I say, as you have caused me to have to think. In the end, it's worth pursuing and studying to understand this, but if we never really understand the issue, it ain't gonna bar us from Heaven. Dan C That's not my issue as much as what it does to so much of everything else we believe in and the other scripture it would invalidate. What you're saying would mean somehow the New Covenant is based on us. Then, it's seems no better than the Old Covenant when we know we could break covenant. It calls absolutely everything into question. That's the bottom line for me. It doesn't fit the rest of what we believe and understand in scripture. Romans 11:29 1 John 5:11-13 Hebews 10:14 John 10:28-29 John 6:37-40 I could go on and on. |
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Post by alon on Jan 17, 2019 15:23:34 GMT -8
That's not my issue as much as what it does to so much of everything else we believe in and the other scripture it would invalidate. What you're saying would mean somehow the New Covenant is based on us. Then, it's seems no better than the Old Covenant when we know we could break covenant. It calls absolutely everything into question. That's the bottom line for me. It doesn't fit the rest of what we believe and understand in scripture. Romans 11:29 1 John 5:11-13 Hebews 10:14 John 10:28-29 John 6:37-40 I could go on and on. First off, I don’t believe there is a “New Covenant.” It is a “Renewed Covenant,” made with the same people and only explained better, not changed in any way except that the promised Messiah is now come. Romans 11:29 (ESV) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.That we chose to use them for evil or not at all has no bearing on God’s faithfulness to us. It has everything to do with the fact we still have free will. Hebrews 10:14 (ESV) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Those who are being sanctified are those still walking in His . Nothing about losing your salvation here, only those who still are saved. John 10:28-29 (ESV) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
We already dealt with this. No one can take your salvation- that’s God’s promise to you. But you still do have free will, so you are the only one who can walk away and break the covenant. John 6:37-40 (ESV) All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Again, God’s guarantee to us that as long as we believe on Him (Yeshua) He will not forsake us. Does not say we cannot forsake Him. That free will thing again. None of these are the absolutes you have made them into. None are a basis for destroying your faith if you find out you are wrong (or mine if I am). Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
