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Post by jimmie on Jan 17, 2019 15:34:33 GMT -8
I Kings 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites; 2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. 3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. 4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
Did Solomon lose his salvation/(standing with the LORD)? Or did he never have salvation/(a walk with the LORD)?
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 17, 2019 21:40:29 GMT -8
That's not my issue as much as what it does to so much of everything else we believe in and the other scripture it would invalidate. What you're saying would mean somehow the New Covenant is based on us. Then, it's seems no better than the Old Covenant when we know we could break covenant. It calls absolutely everything into question. That's the bottom line for me. It doesn't fit the rest of what we believe and understand in scripture. Romans 11:29 1 John 5:11-13 Hebews 10:14 John 10:28-29 John 6:37-40 I could go on and on. First off, I don’t believe there is a “New Covenant.” It is a “Renewed Covenant,” made with the same people and only explained better, not changed in any way except that the promised Messiah is now come. Romans 11:29 (ESV) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.That we chose to use them for evil or not at all has no bearing on God’s faithfulness to us. It has everything to do with the fact we still have free will. Hebrews 10:14 (ESV) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Those who are being sanctified are those still walking in His  . Nothing about losing your salvation here, only those who still are saved. John 10:28-29 (ESV) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
We already dealt with this. No one can take your salvation- that’s God’s promise to you. But you still do have free will, so you are the only one who can walk away and break the covenant. John 6:37-40 (ESV) All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Again, God’s guarantee to us that as long as we believe on Him (Yeshua) He will not forsake us. Does not say we cannot forsake Him. That free will thing again. None of these are the absolutes you have made them into. None are a basis for destroying your faith if you find out you are wrong (or mine if I am). Dan C The Bible uses the phrase "New Covenant" in both the Hebrew and Greek, and Paul said its better because it's based on better promises. (Hebrews 8). "For it is impossible for those who once enlightened -having tasted of the heavenly gift and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted the good word of G-d and the powers of heaven, and then having fallen away- to renew again to repentance, since they are again crucifying the Son of G-d and publicaly disgracing Him. For the earth- having soaked up the rain frequently falling on it - brings forth vegetation useful to those whom it is farmed; and it shares in G-d's blessing. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed- it's end is to be burned. But even though we speak like this, loved ones, concerning you we are convinced of better things - things coming with salvation." Hebrews 6:4-10 I don't believe "enlightenment" and salvation are the same thing. The verse goes on to show a distinction between what is described as enlightenment and salvation evident by what comes along with it. It is a big deal Alon because faith is fundamental to everything we believe. Primarily, it's faith in the perfection of a covenental relationship through the perfect work of Yeshua. If you can leave Yeshua, how could you have truly submitted to Him? And if you're truly submitted to Him you are partaking in the covenant He secured. You can't leave it because He keeps it. It's foundational. "For G-d so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. G-d did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not condemned; but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not put his trust in the Name of the one and only Son of G-d." John 3:16-18 Those who are saved won't walk away because we exercise our free will to submit to G-d. That's why we wait for Jewish people who G-d knows in advance will use their free will to call on Him. It's the same for our salvation because G-d is the same. Only those who call on Him in truth are saved. If they walk away, they never submitted to Him or they'll be disciplined till they do. G-d knows who believes in Him and to suggest we can go back and forth believing or not in G-d thus being brought in and out of covenant with Him seems completely contrary to anything we know about G-d. He doesn't allow that in human marriage. Maybe that's what Hebrews 6 is discussing that's impossible because and we know those saved can depend on G-d's mercy and repent. (Later the next day) I watched a teaching on this that of course agrees with the truth of eternal salvation meaning exactly that. I doubt any of us will change our minds, but I'll share it because it gives a more knowledgeable explanation of the verse than me agreeing with you that the verse is referring to those saved. Based on the truth that we can all repent at any point ,except in the instances of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - which I think is then getting into hardening of hearts of the rebellious who will never choose to repent - and the word "near" that refers to the condemnation of those producing thorns and thistles again indicating we can always repent, the situation being discussed is hypothetical. |
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Post by alon on Jan 18, 2019 11:03:35 GMT -8
I Kings 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites; 2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. 3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. 4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. Did Solomon lose his salvation/(standing with the LORD)? Or did he never have salvation/(a walk with the LORD)? He was in a set apart (saved) state when he was walking in God's precepts. This was evidenced when God gave him an extra outpouring of His Spirit in the form of of wisdom. He was in grave danger when he was disobedient and took a bunch of pagan wives. He lost it when he did not repent the transgression of those marriages and instead went after other gods. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jan 18, 2019 11:31:12 GMT -8
In Hebrew, the term can mean either “new” or “renewed.” Context drives the meaning, thus if there were anything “new” in the entire “New” Testament, a new covenant would be correct. Since pastors with MA’s have tried and failed to show me anything “new,” I’m going to go with “Renewed” Covenant being the correct term. κρείττων kreíttōn is the Greek in the passage you referenced. Most English translations say a “better covenant,” but according to Thayer’s the term actually means more “useful, serviceable, advantageous, or excellent.” Contextually the only thing “better” is that Yeshua HaMoshiach is now our High Priest in the heavens, where before He was not. That is the only difference, that what was prophesied in the covenant is now come to pass. Again according to Thayer's, one meaning of the term φωτίζω phōtízō, here translated "enlighten," is "to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge." So no, they do not mean the same thing, however as used here enlightenment comes with salvation. It is an inseparable part of salvation. I am having a hard time seeing why it would destroy your faith if someone else apostatized. You can exercise free will and submit one day, yet repent of your submission and walk away the next. Free will means you always have the choice. And yes, once saved God will discipline you if you stray. However some, no matter how harsh the discipline gets will not submit again. Go back to Judas. Chosen as a disciple of the Messiah, he had to have been "saved" at one time. But whatever his motivations, in the end he betrayed his Master, and was doomed because of it. Or in jimmie's example Solomon, given the Spiritual gift of wisdom- and those gifts only are for the "saved." Yet in the end he went after strange gods and he too was doomed, separated now from the God he once walked with. Dan C |
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Post by chrisg on Jan 18, 2019 13:27:04 GMT -8
There are examples of people enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift, and partaking in the Spirit of G-d but nevertheless not saved - Hagar, Esau, Pharaoh, Judas. Perhaps even Balaam and the adversary himself. G-d was faithful to offer salvation and truth. He is just and blameless as He revealed Himself to them in truth, but they simply said no to His way. I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about that mentality. People who agree to "salvation" on their own conditions, but our salvation is unconditionally based on the faithfulness of G-d as our G-d. They cannot be saved on their own way or conditions, and so they simply never agreed with G-d. Then there's no covenant between them and Him; so no covenantal relationship- no salvation. If we can lose salvation, you're saying G-d can break a covenant because it's based on covenental relationship that is dependent on Him. God does not break the covenant, ever. But He won't stop us from breaking it- again, ever. Let's take one from your list- there are others, but one will suffice to illustrate the point. It is very likely, in fact almost a certainty that Judas was saved. After all, he was chosen as a disciple by Yeshua. I don't buy the Christian teaching that he was allowed to tag along just to show us the unsaved are among us. Do you realize what harm such a one could have done in THAT camp? How many could be led into falsehoods by such a man? Judas actions may not have been betrayal at all. Hear me out. There were many who wanted Yeshua to start and lead a rebellion against Rome. He was after all the Crown Prince of Israel and the man by far most likely to be the Messiah! Judas may have been of this persuasion. If so, it must have been frustrating to listen to Him speak of things like "turn the other cheek." Selling Yeshua out would fill the coffers and force the issue all at the same time. And he almost got what he wanted! The man whose ear Peter cut off was the next in line to become High Priest. We know this from extra-biblical writings. He was a Roman lackey, and no man with a deformity could be a priest, let alone High Priest. That war was just the one gesture of Yeshua replacing the ear away from happening. We have the luxury of looking back and judging these people and events from our safe perspective. But they must be judged from the perspective of those there, and the political realities of the time in which they occurred. For instance, haven't you ever asked yourself why, after seeing Yeshua replacing a severed ear, would those men not have fell on their faces before Him? The reality is that Old Testament prophets had done many such wonders. And the sadder part of that reality is many of them had been killed because of their message. Yeshua was to be no different. When Judas saw what he had done was about to get Yeshua killed, he fell apart. That says to me he probably did not get the result he expected. He didn't intend Yeshua to become a prisoner. He expected an uprising as Yeshua threw the Romans into the Mediterranean. Now I am sure you are thinking this is all fantasy; alon has gone off the rails here. But I would submit to you it is no more fantasy than the common understanding that Judas was unsaved, a traitor in the camp. But neither you nor the church fathers who originally perpetrated this view can know the heart condition or the salvific state of Judas. You don't know what he was thinking, any more than I do. This is just another possibility. But I put it to you, if my theory is right, is Judas still saved? Dan C That is exactly how I have understood Judas too |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 18, 2019 17:02:06 GMT -8
In Hebrew, the term can mean either “new” or “renewed.” Context drives the meaning, thus if there were anything “new” in the entire “New” Testament, a new covenant would be correct. Since pastors with MA’s have tried and failed to show me anything “new,” I’m going to go with “Renewed” Covenant being the correct term. κρείττων kreíttōn is the Greek in the passage you referenced. Most English translations say a “better covenant,” but according to Thayer’s the term actually means more “useful, serviceable, advantageous, or excellent.” Contextually the only thing “better” is that Yeshua HaMoshiach is now our High Priest in the heavens, where before He was not. That is the only difference, that what was prophesied in the covenant is now come to pass. Again according to Thayer's, one meaning of the term φωτίζω phōtízō, here translated "enlighten," is "to enlighten spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge." So no, they do not mean the same thing, however as used here enlightenment comes with salvation. It is an inseparable part of salvation. I am having a hard time seeing why it would destroy your faith if someone else apostatized. You can exercise free will and submit one day, yet repent of your submission and walk away the next. Free will means you always have the choice. And yes, once saved God will discipline you if you stray. However some, no matter how harsh the discipline gets will not submit again. Go back to Judas. Chosen as a disciple of the Messiah, he had to have been "saved" at one time. But whatever his motivations, in the end he betrayed his Master, and was doomed because of it. Or in jimmie's example Solomon, given the Spiritual gift of wisdom- and those gifts only are for the "saved." Yet in the end he went after strange gods and he too was doomed, separated now from the God he once walked with. Dan C I think it's clear in scripture the covenant referred to as "New" in the book of Hebrews is indeed better and there's a lot more to it as accomplished by Yeshua than you're suggesting. I'm just saying that to encourage people to read it on their own before deciding because I totally disagree with you, but it seems there's no point furthering the discussion between us. As I stated in my other post, based on further learning that helped me rectify the inconsistencies regarding not being able to repent in Hebrews 6, it's discussing a hypothetical considered "impossible". It actually just furthered in my mind what I already believed, but at this point that's all any of us seem to be doing. I'm just saying this for the sake of other people reading it and struggling with it because I wholeheartedly disagree, and it's a big deal to me as I state below. So I'm just saying there is this possibility to consider. I don't believe it effects my faith. I just believe you're very wrong and it's offensive to the work of Yeshua Who promises eternal life upon accepting His salvation. That's what people come to when they come to salvation. If it's eternal, you can't lose it. So again because of other people and what I believe it does to Yeshua, though I know that's not your intention, I'm saying this. It's also inconsistent with G-d's faithfulness as depicted in Israel based on the promises He made in such passages as Jeremiah 32 where we are promised He does the work of the heart Himself. It is exactly because of the interdependence between the covenants that we can know eternal is eternal and everlasting is everlasting. If we can walk away from the salvation of Yeshua, ultimately Israel can walk away from G-d. But we know He won't let them because of such passages as Jeremiah 32. So I think it does more damage than you do and so it is a bigger deal to me. Also, I'm not convinced of you're take on free will. For a scriptural example Sarah and Abimelech (Genesis 20) Also, I know G-d has interfered with my free will to prevent me from sinning, at least in deed, to either protect the people around me and/or my witness. I was with a group of friends slandering their mother-in-laws. He prevented me from remembering the story I wanted to tell to join in the conversation. Any other time it would have been on the tip of my little wicked tongue, but He absolutely prevented me from exercising my free will by preventing me from remembering it. Personal experience doesn't prove anything but still I think there may be a scriptural example as stated and because I am basing this disagreement on personal experience I just can't agree. Also, we know from scripture Judas was a thief. (1 Corinthians 6:10) He never turned from his sin evident by him continuing in it so no I don't agree he was saved. And I don't believe it was unwise on Yeshua's part to accept him as Yeshua knew what he was doing and that it was necessary according to scripture to fulfill G-d's will. If there was any point he might have been saved, and as a Christian I actually wondered over it, it was when he displayed repentance after betraying Yeshua. However, after reading more of the Bible, I now know he wasn't. Also Solomon broke the covenant, but the covenant I refer to as new was not yet instituted. Also, we see later on based on my research of when wrote and the date of his reign, he repented as he wrote the book of Ecclesiastes. He comes to the conclusion "fear G-d and keep His commandments" (Ecc 12:13) so it still wouldn't contradict what I believe. |
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. Nothing about losing your salvation here, only those who still are saved.
