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Post by alon on Sept 17, 2019 11:28:32 GMT -8
The Hebrew A is called Aleph, which is a real Hebrew word meaning cattle and it is used that way in Bible verses like in Proverbs and Isaiah, according to Briggs' Lexicon: Similar to how the letter Yod (arm) was drawn like an arm, the letter Aleph (cattle) was drawn with a horned bovine head. Aleph is spelled אָלֶף aleph lamed pey-sofit. BDB doesn’t specify any meaning of aleph besides the letter and number. אלפים alephim is the plural, and does mean cattle according to BDB. Ox in Hebrew is שור shin vav resh, shor. The Phoenicians and some other languages of the region did use aleph (or similar terms) to mean an ox. But I find no Hebrew equivalent. Doesn't mean it does not exist, just that it isn't in my reference books or the internet sites I visited. |
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Post by alon on Sept 17, 2019 11:33:35 GMT -8
In Paleo the pictograph very much resembles a shepherds staff. And who says the crook has to point up? Just because that is how most of the ignorant artists painted it doesn't make it so. The research materials say that in paleohebrew the crook is at the bottom:  The Hebrew4Christians website shows it that way too in its paleostage that it calls ktav ivrit. Yes, the crook is down, as I said. Look at he 2000 BC, which is the period we are discussing. Note the shortness and shape of the crook. Also look at the angle of the shaft. That approximates the angle the crook would be used if you were guiding a sheep with that short crook. It could also be used in training an ox or other animal. |
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 12:05:29 GMT -8
The Hebrew A is called Aleph, which is a real Hebrew word meaning cattle and it is used that way in Bible verses like in Proverbs and Isaiah, according to Briggs' Lexicon: Similar to how the letter Yod (arm) was drawn like an arm, the letter Aleph (cattle) was drawn with a horned bovine head. Aleph is spelled אָלֶף aleph lamed pey-sofit. BDB doesn’t specify any meaning of aleph besides the letter and number. I don't know why you said that BDB doesn't give any meaning for aleph besides the letter and number- didnt I quote BDB as giving cattle as the meaning for Aleph in a collective singular. I got the information from Bible hub, which had the quote from Bdb that I gave. It gave examples from scripture like: Deuteronomy 7:13 HEB: וְיִצְהָרֶ֗ךָ שְׁגַר־ אֲלָפֶ֙יךָ֙ וְעַשְׁתְּרֹ֣ת צֹאנֶ֔ךָ NAS: the increase of your herd and the young KJV: the increase of thy kine, and the flocks The Strong's page in Biblehub says: 504. eleph Strong's Concordance eleph: cattle Original Word: אֶלֶף Part of Speech: Noun Masculine Transliteration: eleph Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-lef) Definition: cattle ========================= I guess you mean that eleph for cattle is not the same word as Aleph for the letter A even though they are spelled the same way when it comes to Hebrew consonants. Wikipedia says about the letter's origin: <<The name aleph is derived from the West Semitic word for "ox", and the shape of the letter derives from a Proto-Sinaitic glyph that may have been based on an Egyptian hieroglyph>> In any case, the origin of the letter and it's original name meaning apparently refers to an ox, bull, or cattle. |
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 13:00:36 GMT -8
Maybe there really is a cryptic mystical pictographic meaning with EL based on Ecclesiastes 12: It's funny and true at the same time. It's funny because the author sounds wise and sympathetic and he is saying that there are so many wise words like he is groaning over how much you can get over weighed with these good things. And it's interesting because I wonder if he has in mind the mystical meaning if the words he uses like the shepherds, nails, teaching, goading, and training and the mystic words of the Tanakh or  . When someone reads the passage, he can ask Who us the Shepherd. It doesnt make sense in a literal way that religious students study from a shepherd, since they actually study from a teacher. So why is it that a shepherd gives wise words when in fact wise words ultimately come from God? So here we are getting to the inner mystical meaning, where maybe the Shepherd is the Lord as in Psalm 23. So one option I think for EL is a shepherd, God, who teaches or goads a livestock herd, like how in Eccl 12 and Psalm 23 God is like a Shepherd and the faithful are like His flock. Another meaning that seems a bit tougher is that God is like the bull who is pierced. This would use the bull or ox as a stand-in for God, as with the Apis bull, and the goad would be piercing him like how in the pictographic readings of YHWH, the arms of El are pierced, or how in the epistle to the Hebrews Yeshua is seen as a metaphorical stand in for the sacrificed bulls. I guess if we are going to read YHWH as pierced by the nail, we might as well read El as the bull poked by the goad. |
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Post by alon on Sept 17, 2019 13:24:57 GMT -8
I guess you mean that eleph for cattle is not the same word as Aleph for the letter A even though they are spelled the same way when it comes to Hebrew consonants. Bingo!!! The words are different even though the spelling is the same! That's how Hebrew works. And how do you know which word it is? Context, context, context ... Dan C |
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Post by alon on Sept 17, 2019 13:30:34 GMT -8
Maybe there really is a cryptic mystical pictographic meaning with EL based on Ecclesiastes 12: It's funny and true at the same time. It's funny because the author sounds wise and sympathetic and he is saying that there are so many wise words like he is groaning over how much you can get over weighed with these good things. And it's interesting because I wonder if he has in mind the mystical meaning if the words he uses like the shepherds, nails, teaching, goading, and training and the mystic words of the Tanakh or . When someone reads the passage, he can ask Who us the Shepherd. It doesnt make sense in a literal way that religious students study from a shepherd, since they actually study from a teacher. So why is it that a shepherd gives wise words when in fact wise words ultimately come from God? So here we are getting to the inner mystical meaning, where maybe the Shepherd is the Lord as in Psalm 23. So one option I think for EL is a shepherd, God, who teaches or goads a livestock herd, like how in Eccl 12 and Psalm 23 God is like a Shepherd and the faithful are like His flock. Another meaning that seems a bit tougher is that God is like the bull who is pierced. This would use the bull or ox as a stand-in for God, as with the Apis bull, and the goad would be piercing him like how in the pictographic readings of YHWH, the arms of El are pierced, or how in the epistle to the Hebrews Yeshua is seen as a metaphorical stand in for the sacrificed bulls. I guess if we are going to read YHWH as pierced by the nail, we might as well read El as the bull poked by the goad. You are over-thinking it. Pastors and priests and rabbis are still referred to as shepherds. And they give us wise words (if not, leave!). And they acknowledge those words are from God. And if you want to look at this as herding a flock of plural beasties (to wit, you and friends), then ok. Just imagine the priest poking you with the sharp end or hooking you with the small crook, which more guides than grabs. And from time to time he may ask you to pull the plow (metaphorically), as in ask your help on something. There, the whole discussion boiled down to its simplest form. Dan C |
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 14:32:21 GMT -8
Good explanation.
I am still thinking about EL and whether it has a pictographic explanation with ox/cattle and goad/train. I guess it has to do with what we discussed.
With YHWH the arm behold nail behold meaning is clearer because of how the combination shows up 4 times in the Bible.
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 15:03:01 GMT -8
Strong's concordance says that in Judges 3:31 the word malmud means ox goad, as it's typically translated into English, and that lamed, meaning to teach, is related linguistically to malmud.
So similar to how Yod, the letter Y, literally means arm and is drawn with an arm, Lamed, the letter L literally means train or teach, is etymologically related to malmud, an ox goad, and is drawn with a downward crook that looks like a J, L, or ox goad.
I understand that it could also look like a staff, but unlike malmud, the Hebrew word for staff does not sound like the name for L, lamed or relate to it etymologically.
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 19:36:30 GMT -8
With YHWH, we already covered Yod. In my research, the second letter, H, is called "Heh" and literally means "behold" or "Lo", and there is at least one verse where it is used that way. The Hope of Israel Ministries website says: Genesis 47:23 ends with With YHWH, we already covered Yod. In my research, the second letter, H, is called "Heh" and literally means "behold" or "Lo", and there is at least one verse where it is used that way. The Hope of Israel Ministries webpage on "Hei" says: Genesis 47:23 ends with הֵֽא־לָכֶ֣ם זֶ֔רַע וּזְרַעְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הָאֲדָמָֽה׃
(lo here is seed for you and ye shall sow the land) I have seen it drawn in the PaleoHebrew script a few ways, based on the image of a person with his arms outstretched, like in the far left image:  Here in the chart below the Hei looks even more like a person with his arms up: ![https://www.abdicate.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/paleoChart.jpg]()  |
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Post by alon on Sept 17, 2019 19:49:23 GMT -8
Strong's concordance says that in Judges 3:31 the word malmud means ox goad, as it's typically translated into English, and that lamed, meaning to teach, is related linguistically to malmud. So similar to how Yod, the letter Y, literally means arm and is drawn with an arm, Lamed, the letter L literally means train or teach, is etymologically related to malmud, an ox goad, and is drawn with a downward crook that looks like a J, L, or ox goad. I understand that it could also look like a staff, but unlike malmud, the Hebrew word for staff does not sound like the name for L, lamed or relate to it etymologically. Strong's is an excellent reference, but you have to be careful with it. The team Dr. Strong headed when they compiled that book was at an 18th cen Methodist college in New England. So they were heavily invested in Catholic doctrine, even though the region was a hotbed of Protestantism at the time. They were not always accurate in their translations. This, I think is one of those times they were slightly off. In your chart above, "hei" is actually a window. What looks like a person with his arms up (which is what I thought t was for a long time) actually is more likely a person looking out a window. That fits better with the meaning, which is to reveal. Looking through a window reveals what is on the other side of the wall (inside or out). In that chart you can clearly see the ox head for "aleph" also. The name YHVH is yud hei vav hei- a hand with arm (the hand works, the arm is strength), a window, a peg or nail, and another window. "The Hand Revealed, the Nail Revealed." Most Messianics learn of that in the first months of their being converted. Some even earlier. I learned it while still in Hebrew Roots. That you figured this out yourself is pretty good! The chart you found there is a little too blocked and stylized to be the earliest form of pictographic Hebrew. But it does give a good idea of it. Dan C |
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 20:02:07 GMT -8
Strong's concordance says that in Judges 3:31 the word malmud means ox goad, as it's typically translated into English, and that lamed, meaning to teach, is related linguistically to malmud. So similar to how Yod, the letter Y, literally means arm and is drawn with an arm, Lamed, the letter L literally means train or teach, is etymologically related to malmud, an ox goad, and is drawn with a downward crook that looks like a J, L, or ox goad. I understand that it could also look like a staff, but unlike malmud, the Hebrew word for staff does not sound like the name for L, lamed or relate to it etymologically. Strong's is an excellent reference, but you have to be careful with it. The team Dr. Strong headed when they compiled that book was at an 18th cen Methodist college in New England. So they were heavily invested in Catholic doctrine, even though the region was a hotbed of Protestantism at the time. They were not always accurate in their translations. This, I think is one of those times they were slightly off. It sounds like you don't think that Malmud means goad, or is related to Lamed, nor is Lamed related to the concept of goading. At least in Eccl. 12:11-12, the concept of teaching (lamed) is related to the concept of a goad, although they use a different word for goad there. And then we would be left with the issue of how Lamed relates to an object that looks like an L or J. If the obejct was a goad, it would solve the problem. According to A Critical Commentary and Paraphrase on the Old and New Testament, Volume 2, by Simon Patrick , the Vulgate and the LXX actually interpret Malmud to mean plough, whereas Jewish translators and commentators like Kimchi take it to mean goad. Patrick chooses the meaning ox goad, noting that the Greek writer Homer described a battle where the victor won using ox goads: |
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 20:15:57 GMT -8
The name YHVH is yud hei vav hei- a hand with arm (the hand works, the arm is strength), a window, a peg or nail, and another window. "The Hand Revealed, the Nail Revealed." Most Messianics learn of that in the first months of their being converted. Some even earlier. I learned it while still in Hebrew Roots. That you figured this out yourself is pretty good! It's neat that they are learning this so early. The pictures are a good way to learn the alphabet. In my case it felt like a special coincidence - I had been learning the meaning of the ancient civilizations' words and names for God, and then I got into a debate with some nonChristians who believed that Psalm 22 did not say that the narrator's arms and legs were gouged. I looked at the Dead Sea scrolls and how they had the word Kaaru. One Messianic writer, IIRC, noted also that the letter Hei was interspersed seemingly at extra moments throughout Psalm 22, and since Heh especially relates to the divine in Jewish thought, he argued that the gratuitous Hei letters implied that God was undergoing the narrator's suffering. I would have to doublecheck his argument, but it went something like that. I am not sure how reliable it is, because I think that people have claimed that the extra Hehs are more of a metric device keeping order in the Psalm. Anyway, the same author presented the pictographic reading of YHWH, which was pretty interesting for me because it was the kind of insight that I was looking for in the different ancient scripts' names for God. |
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 17, 2019 20:31:56 GMT -8
Finally, for the Waw, it's relatively straightforward that the name Waw for the letter W means a nail in the sense of a stake. There was a case in the where Israelite soldiers put stakes (waw) on their staffs. And the letter for the nail looks like a long nail, |. Yes, I understand that you are saying that the Hei means Reveal, but I found Hei meaning "Behold" in some verses like Genesis 47:23 that I cited. In other words, there is a literal meaning of Hei as "Behold" that explicitly shows up a few times in the TaNaKh. I don't mean to be a stickler, but one reason why it's significant is that in John 20 and the other passages, people "behold" the Messiah and His wounds. I guess you could say though that if someone beholds something that they also have it revealed to them, so that the meanings are not mutually exclusive. Psalm 22, Isaiah 52-53, and Zechariah 11-13 were three passages that I found most clearly referred to the Messiah's crucifixion and resurrection, and they combine the images of piercing the arms of the Messiah. With Psalm 22, I wonder if it hints at the Messiah's divinity. The Psalm is supposed to be on the Star of the Morning, and verse 9 says: "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts." Maybe this refers to His divinity. The piercing of the arm is in verse 16: "they pierced my hands and my feet." The beholding shows up in the next verse, where the bones or the enemies look at the pierced narrator: "I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me." This theme shows up in the other Tanakh passage that I mentioned as well. |
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Post by alon on Sept 17, 2019 20:33:00 GMT -8
Strong's is an excellent reference, but you have to be careful with it. The team Dr. Strong headed when they compiled that book was at an 18th cen Methodist college in New England. So they were heavily invested in Catholic doctrine, even though the region was a hotbed of Protestantism at the time. They were not always accurate in their translations. This, I think is one of those times they were slightly off. It sounds like you don't think that Malmud means goad, or is related to Lamed, nor is Lamed related to the concept of goading. At least in Eccl. 12:11-12, the concept of teaching (lamed) is related to the concept of a goad, although they use a different word for goad there. And then we would be left with the issue of how Lamed relates to an object that looks like an L or J. If the obejct was a goad, it would solve the problem. According to A Critical Commentary and Paraphrase on the Old and New Testament, Volume 2, by Simon Patrick , the Vulgate and the LXX actually interpret Malmud to mean plough, whereas Jewish translators and commentators like Kimchi take it to mean goad. Patrick chooses the meaning ox goad, noting that the Greek writer Homer described a battle where the victor won using ox goads: Quite the opposite. It does mean goad, as well as a shepherd's staff. I believe they are one and the same. I do not believe the busy farmer took the time and effort to make 2 staves when one would do both jobs. Nor did he run home to change staves every time he wanted to work with different animals. I also think every stave looked different, depending on his preferences and what he could find for raw materials. That staff or goad had to serve not only to train, herd, and corect livestock, but it was a weapon to defend them. That means in size and shape it had to be as close to perfect as he could get. It had to be free of flaws or defects. Not prone to splintering and no weak spots. Most would point one end, the other would have some kind of short hook. A few inches would be all that was needed, not some fancy curved hook. Capturing a full grown sheep in that large crook would likely get you jerked off your feet at some point. When I was doing martial arts, we worked with sticks. I used to go over and work out with the FMA folks doing full contact stick fighting. The part of the stick that protruded from the back of the fist was called the "Punyo," and 1/2" was more than enough punyo for a practiced Arnisador to capture an arm and pull you in. It doesn't take much. And it wouldn't take as much as you think to redirect a wayward sheep. However that short, solid club on the end of a long stave could be an effective weapon. The most formidable Viking warriors were the ones with an axe head on the end of a very long staff. Whether working with short sticks or staffs or any weapon, it is the very end that is the striking surface. That is where, when swung in an arc the weapon is traveling fastest and strikes with the most force. The Irish Shillelagh is a stick of various lengths with a knob on the end. And that knob is deadly. I'd imagine that is what might be at the end of the goad/staff used by many shepherds and ploughmen. But again, I doubt there was a "standard" goad or staff. Just whatever was available and fit the preferences of the farmer. |
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Post by alon on Sept 17, 2019 20:37:24 GMT -8
The name YHVH is yud hei vav hei- a hand with arm (the hand works, the arm is strength), a window, a peg or nail, and another window. "The Hand Revealed, the Nail Revealed." Most Messianics learn of that in the first months of their being converted. Some even earlier. I learned it while still in Hebrew Roots. That you figured this out yourself is pretty good! It's neat that they are learning this so early. The pictures are a good way to learn the alphabet. In my case it felt like a special coincidence - I had been learning the meaning of the ancient civilizations' words and names for God, and then I got into a debate with some nonChristians who believed that Psalm 22 did not say that the narrator's arms and legs were gouged. I looked at the Dead Sea scrolls and how they had the word Kaaru. One Messianic writer, IIRC, noted also that the letter Hei was interspersed seemingly at extra moments throughout Psalm 22, and since Heh especially relates to the divine in Jewish thought, he argued that the gratuitous Hei letters implied that God was undergoing the narrator's suffering. I would have to doublecheck his argument, but it went something like that. I am not sure how reliable it is, because I think that people have claimed that the extra Hehs are more of a metric device keeping order in the Psalm. Anyway, the same author presented the pictographic reading of YHWH, which was pretty interesting for me because it was the kind of insight that I was looking for in the different ancient scripts' names for God. It's the infinite word of God. They can serve more than one purpose. This is a problem when reading academics. They come up with some insight, and the arguments ensue! Everyone is locked into his own insight, and too self important to see reason. Both insights can be right! (Or neither). |
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- there are 70 faces to 
