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Post by Questor on Nov 18, 2016 22:47:31 GMT -8
When Yeshua stood before Pilate, he said, “I came to bear witness to the truth.”
Pilate, like the rest of us, asks, “What is truth?”
I have been looking for a concise answer to this question, and stumbled over something very close to what Yeshua did, in word and deed, witness to:
Truth is the beingness of everything -
the structure and charactor of G-d
...which is my summary of what I think Yeshua did, and said, with every breath and movement...all of which we are supposed to emulate, to the best of our ability, and then accept the gift of grace in Yeshua that we need to bear up under the truth.
Dr. Henry Cloud, wrote of the above this way, in his counseling work with Believers:
God’s truth leads us to what is real, to what is accurate. Just as our DNA contains the form that our physical life will take, God’s truth contains the form that our soul and spirit should take.
The law is a blueprint, or a structure, for people to live by. It offers them guidance, and it sets limits for them.
Truth without grace is judgment. It sends you straight to hell, literally and experientially.
The law without grace destroys us. No one ever grows when they are under the law, for the law put us into a strictly legal relationship with God: “I’ll love you only if you do what is true or right.”
Getting truth before grace, or truth before relationship, brings guilt, anxiety, anger, and a host of other painful emotions.
“The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:14,16-17).
Grace and truth together reverse the effects of the fall, which were separation from God and others. Grace and truth together invite us out of isolation and into relationship. Grace, when it is combined with truth, invites the true self, the “me” as I really am, warts and all, into relationship. It is one thing to have safety in relationship; it is quite another to be truly known and accepted in this relationship.
With grace alone, we are safe from condemnation, but we cannot experience true intimacy. When the one who offers grace also offers truth (truth about who we are, truth about who he or she is, and truth about the world around us), and we respond with our true self, then real intimacy is possible. Real intimacy always comes in the company of truth.
(excerpts from Changes that Heal, by Dr. Henry Cloud)
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Post by Atsalyahu ben David on Jan 29, 2018 0:51:58 GMT -8
Those words, "what is truth?"...ring in my soul. It's so poetic you know? There are so many ways you can take that. One might be thinking he is trying to asses this from a Gnostic perspective, you know? Pilate asks a direct question: “So then,” Pilate said to him, “You are a king, after all.” Jesus responds very directly that his Kingship is metaphorical and spiritual, not a challenge to the Roman Empire. Yeshua answered, “You say I am a king. The reason I have been born, the reason I have come into the world, is to bear witness to the truth. Every one who belongs to the truth listens to me.” And then, it's like.....well almost like that truth, that  , and light that wisdom is seeping in to Pilates (whom I am told was a very cruel and dangerous man) mind, like an inkling, a woo'ing, even for this guy.....the slavemaster of Israel.....calling to him, even. Come to me.... And in nearly every version of the Brit' Chadashah I can find Pilate responds, as I think we all do sometimes, especially when the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, the light of wisdom the vehicle of Mashiach, illuminates and we begin to pull our head from the deluge of the deception of our ever important lives, and see that a world exists beyond this one. What is....truth? Fantastic post, I just had a few moments to respond in my day, but the thought you have written here is quite poetic and beautiful. Thank you for that. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 30, 2018 8:55:34 GMT -8
And to add to this picture is the beautiful truth that as Pilate asked that question, he was literally looking right at "truth" incarnate in Yeshua. I imagine him looking in the eyes of Yeshua, asking that question, and G-d perfectly answering in silence whether Pilate heard Him or not.
For G-d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16
And what G-d sees in us is the truth. I hope everyone learns how loved they are by G-d. How much He wants them and sees them. Then all the sudden mercy, wrath, compassion and accountability make sense just because of who He made each of us to be and whether or not we see it.
He just loves the life He made and we are justly and somehow also graciously accountable for when we don't. I don't know how He always does it, but it's perfect that in all He does there is a picture of life's worth.
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Post by Questor on Jan 30, 2018 14:35:51 GMT -8
And to add to this picture is the beautiful truth that as Pilate asked that question, he was literally looking right at "truth" incarnate in Yeshua. I imagine him looking in the eyes of Yeshua, asking that question, and G-d perfectly answering in silence whether Pilate heard Him or not. For G-d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 And what G-d sees in us is the truth. I hope everyone learns how loved they are by G-d. How much He wants them and sees them. Then all the sudden mercy, wrath, compassion and accountability make sense just because of who He made each of us to be and whether or not we see it. He just loves the life He made and we are justly and somehow also graciously accountable for when we don't. I don't know how He always does it, but it's perfect that in all He does there is a picture of life's worth.
Odd that one might even say that we are a demonstration of truth, even though we do not yet encompass it. |
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Post by Questor on Jan 30, 2018 15:02:24 GMT -8
Those words, "what is truth?"...ring in my soul. It's so poetic you know? There are so many ways you can take that. One might be thinking he is trying to asses this from a Gnostic perspective, you know? Pilate asks a direct question: “So then,” Pilate said to him, “You are a king, after all.” Jesus responds very directly that his Kingship is metaphorical and spiritual, not a challenge to the Roman Empire. Yeshua answered, “You say I am a king. The reason I have been born, the reason I have come into the world, is to bear witness to the truth. Every one who belongs to the truth listens to me.” And then, it's like.....well almost like that truth, that , and light that wisdom is seeping in to Pilates (whom I am told was a very cruel and dangerous man) mind, like an inkling, a woo'ing, even for this guy.....the slavemaster of Israel.....calling to him, even. Come to me.... And in nearly every version of the Brit' Chadashah I can find Pilate responds, as I think we all do sometimes, especially when the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, the light of wisdom the vehicle of Mashiach, illuminates and we begin to pull our head from the deluge of the deception of our ever important lives, and see that a world exists beyond this one. What is....truth? Fantastic post, I just had a few moments to respond in my day, but the thought you have written here is quite poetic and beautiful. Thank you for that.
In one of the better movies about Yeshua (in terms of script, and acting ability), the actor playing Yeshua, when asked the question, simply looked rather hauntingly back at the Pilate character when asked the question, and lets the words...somewhat sardonically rendered, hang painfully in the air without answering....letting the weight of the question pull on the encounter even as the Jesus-actor manages to project some pity for the simple, brutish human asking the question.
We all ask that question. It seems such a big question to answer...and yet, the only real truth is all that G-d is...what he does, what he thinks, what he has laid down in our reality, and what he has promised, is in everything...and there is not one thing that we see that is not a part of G-d's truth, even if we do not always know how to place it into that all-encompassing context.
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Post by maranguape on Aug 28, 2018 15:42:45 GMT -8
Those words, "what is truth?"...ring in my soul. It's so poetic you know? There are so many ways you can take that. One might be thinking he is trying to asses this from a Gnostic perspective, you know? Pilate asks a direct question: “So then,” Pilate said to him, “You are a king, after all.” Jesus responds very directly that his Kingship is metaphorical and spiritual, not a challenge to the Roman Empire. Yeshua answered, “You say I am a king. The reason I have been born, the reason I have come into the world, is to bear witness to the truth. Every one who belongs to the truth listens to me.” And then, it's like.....well almost like that truth, that , and light that wisdom is seeping in to Pilates (whom I am told was a very cruel and dangerous man) mind, like an inkling, a woo'ing, even for this guy.....the slavemaster of Israel.....calling to him, even. Come to me.... And in nearly every version of the Brit' Chadashah I can find Pilate responds, as I think we all do sometimes, especially when the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, the light of wisdom the vehicle of Mashiach, illuminates and we begin to pull our head from the deluge of the deception of our ever important lives, and see that a world exists beyond this one. What is....truth? Fantastic post, I just had a few moments to respond in my day, but the thought you have written here is quite poetic and beautiful. Thank you for that. What is the Truth? Jesus himself answered and said: "Thy Word is the Truth." (John 17:17) And the Psalmist had also said about the Word of HaShem: And Thy Word is a lamp to my feet, a light to my path. (Psalm 119:105) Last but not least, whom did HaShem entrust His Word to? And now comes Psalm 147:19,20. "He issued His commands to Jacob, His statutes and rules to Israel. He did not do so for any other nation; of such rules they know nothing. Hallelujah! That's why Isaiah in 142:6 reminds us all that Israel has been assigned as a light unto the nations aka the Gentiles. |
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Post by maranguape on Aug 30, 2018 9:03:49 GMT -8
And to add to this picture is the beautiful truth that as Pilate asked that question, he was literally looking right at "truth" incarnate in Yeshua. I imagine him looking in the eyes of Yeshua, asking that question, and G-d perfectly answering in silence whether Pilate heard Him or not. For G-d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 And what G-d sees in us is the truth. I hope everyone learns how loved they are by G-d. How much He wants them and sees them. Then all the sudden mercy, wrath, compassion and accountability make sense just because of who He made each of us to be and whether or not we see it. He just loves the life He made and we are justly and somehow also graciously accountable for when we don't. I don't know how He always does it, but it's perfect that in all He does there is a picture of life's worth. Hi Elizabeth, I find it interesting to read your saying that "Pilate was looking right at 'truth' incarnate in Yeshua." If Pilate was so sure that Jesus was the Truth, why would he still go ahead and command that a plate be nailed on the top of his cross with Jesus' verdict INRI? That was his confession that he believed Jesus was guilty of sedition because no one could be king in a place where Caesar was king. I don't know if you are aware, Jesus was arrested on the political charge of insurrection for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 30, 2018 11:31:04 GMT -8
And to add to this picture is the beautiful truth that as Pilate asked that question, he was literally looking right at "truth" incarnate in Yeshua. I imagine him looking in the eyes of Yeshua, asking that question, and G-d perfectly answering in silence whether Pilate heard Him or not. For G-d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 And what G-d sees in us is the truth. I hope everyone learns how loved they are by G-d. How much He wants them and sees them. Then all the sudden mercy, wrath, compassion and accountability make sense just because of who He made each of us to be and whether or not we see it. He just loves the life He made and we are justly and somehow also graciously accountable for when we don't. I don't know how He always does it, but it's perfect that in all He does there is a picture of life's worth. Hi Elizabeth, I find it interesting to read your saying that "Pilate was looking right at 'truth' incarnate in Yeshua." If Pilate was so sure that Jesus was the Truth, why would he still go ahead and command that a plate be nailed on the top of his cross with Jesus' verdict INRI? That was his confession that he believed Jesus was guilty of sedition because no one could be king in a place where Caesar was king. I don't know if you are aware, Jesus was arrested on the political charge of insurrection for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) Hello, I didn't mean to imply that Pilate accepted Jesus in my description. I was trying to comment on the irony of the situation; Pilate asking that question when Yeshua was standing there looking at him. It's actually more a comment on his blindness, but the dynamics with Pilate intrigue me though. What is the degree of his culpability given his attempt to avoid any? He feared killing Yeshua knowing He was an innocent man because of his wife's dream so he "washes his hands of it". Meanwhile, he didn't prevent it. He could have done that. He could have even warned people by disclosing his wife's dream. Instead, he tries to blame someone else, but I do believe that moment may have kind of haunted him because he only cared enough to take care of himself. He knew there was more to Yeshua and he's almost afraid to look more into it or something. It's just interesting to think through the possibilities because maybe he made himself more responsible on sone level by "washing his hands of it" . He knew enough to try and blame someone else, and I have a hard time believing he hadn't dismissed the same possible issue with others he had condemned to death as a Roman official so I don't think justice was a factor for him. I think it was just fear. If he knew that, there was something to fear, then he knew enough to speak more truth into the situation. Like I said maybe he should have disclosed his wife's dream for the sake of everyone there. If I were Jewish and someone blamed me for killing Yeshua, or if it ever comes up in a conversation I'm in, I'll turn it around to ask them why didn't the Gentile authority in charge warn the Jews present about his wife's dream? It seems extreme and probably not very helpful, but G-d sent the dream for a reason. Further, Pilate is speaking about the "truth". He didn't disclose everything he knew, he could have stopped the execution, he could have warned people by disclosing the dream, and he knew this was an extreme enough issue to wash his hands of and blame others. It wouldn't have changed anything in the course of events that took place, but maybe a few people would have changed their opinion and would have refused to go along with the priests so I think it's a fair option to consider. I don't know, but I'm human enough to know that we have ways of taking care of ourselves, making ourselves look good, that ultimately amount to setting up others for the fall. G-d sees through that and won't accept It. That is how I personally see Pilate at this point. Maybe there's more to his story later. I haven't looked into it, but in this situation, I don't think he was doing anything but taking care of himself. I also know people think less critically of situations that they would other wise be more critical of when it comes to trusted authority and politics. So I personally believe perhaps, if some of the people there heard the dream, that may have been enough for those certain individuals to at least question the situation a bit more and not just go along with the Priests. I don't know, but I agree the general opinion christian people have of Pilate is unfair and incomplete so that Jewish people come away looking like all the blame. |
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Post by alon on Aug 30, 2018 13:47:32 GMT -8
He feared killing Yeshua knowing He was an innocent man because of his wife's dream so he "washes his hands of it". Meanwhile, he didn't prevent it. He could have done that. He could have even warned people by disclosing his wife's dream. Instead, he tries to blame someone else, but I do believe that moment may have kind of haunted him because he only cared enough to take care of himself. He knew there was more to Yeshua and he's almost afraid to look more into it or something. It's just interesting to think through the possibilities because maybe he made himself more responsible on sone level by "washing his hands of it" . He knew enough to try and blame someone else, and I have a hard time believing he hadn't dismissed the same possible issue with others he had condemned to death as a Roman official so I don't think justice was a factor for him. I think it was just fear. Had Rome not wanted Yeshua dead, He would not have died. But consider the position Pilate found himself in: this was Pesach, the first of the shalosh regalim where every Jewish male was in Yerushalayim. And this was not only the crown prince of Yisroel, He was by far the most likely candidate for the Moshiach. And well over half the country already followed Him. And here are these Jewish leaders, Sadducees who helped them rule the region bringing this man to be treid in the middle of the night so no one could see. As they went to the Temple next morning his execution would be a fate accompli. But the last thing Pilate wanted was an insurrection or rioting over this. He didn't wash his hands before God or even the court. He washed his hands so he could tell the Jews he tried, but their leaders were the ones determined to kill Yeshua. So you are correct when you say "I don't think justice was a factor for him. I think it was just fear." I'm going to posit another theory. Not God, but ha'satan sent that dream to his wife. After all, they were pagans, their minds given over to the enemy. I think ha'satan's plans to have Yeshua killed got a little out of control. He did want Yeshua dead, but not at Pesach. Prophecy, while never outright saying it had hinted at this as the time Yeshua's self sacrifice might mean the final defeat of ha'satan. And the Pesach itself is prophecy, a complete dress rehearsal for the crucifixion. I think ha'satan pushed his own disciples to have Yeshua executed, but after Pesach when everyone was leaving own, tired and thinking of home. But in their zeal they convened an illegal court at night time, with only those of the Sanhedrin who were with their cause present. Then they took Yeshua before Pilate to have Him executed. And at Pesach, which was also illegal! I mean, this is all conjecture, but it amuses me to think of the panicked look on that old demon's face when he realized things were spiraling out of his control!  Yes, despite his defeat that fateful Pesach, the enemy has rallied and used that, along with many other things, to turn his new Christians against God's people. And it was a smart move. That has prevented millions of Christians from being joined with Israel, a people they hate, but which is necessary for salvation. And the enmity caused when these people repeatedly attacked the Jews for centuries has kept millions of them from even considering this "Jesus" in whose name they have been slaughtered. But most perversely and evil, both sides hated and attacked the Nots'rim, the true sect that followed Yeshua. Just another way of looking at all this. Dan C |
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Post by maranguape on Aug 31, 2018 9:08:55 GMT -8
Hi Elizabeth, I find it interesting to read your saying that "Pilate was looking right at 'truth' incarnate in Yeshua." If Pilate was so sure that Jesus was the Truth, why would he still go ahead and command that a plate be nailed on the top of his cross with Jesus' verdict INRI? That was his confession that he believed Jesus was guilty of sedition because no one could be king in a place where Caesar was king. I don't know if you are aware, Jesus was arrested on the political charge of insurrection for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) Hello, I didn't mean to imply that Pilate accepted Jesus in my description. I was trying to comment on the irony of the situation; Pilate asking that question when Yeshua was standing there looking at him. It's actually more a comment on his blindness, but the dynamics with Pilate intrigue me though. What is the degree of his culpability given his attempt to avoid any? He feared killing Yeshua knowing He was an innocent man because of his wife's dream so he "washes his hands of it". Meanwhile, he didn't prevent it. He could have done that. He could have even warned people by disclosing his wife's dream. Instead, he tries to blame someone else, but I do believe that moment may have kind of haunted him because he only cared enough to take care of himself. He knew there was more to Yeshua and he's almost afraid to look more into it or something. It's just interesting to think through the possibilities because maybe he made himself more responsible on sone level by "washing his hands of it" . He knew enough to try and blame someone else, and I have a hard time believing he hadn't dismissed the same possible issue with others he had condemned to death as a Roman official so I don't think justice was a factor for him. I think it was just fear. If he knew that, there was something to fear, then he knew enough to speak more truth into the situation. Like I said maybe he should have disclosed his wife's dream for the sake of everyone there. If I were Jewish and someone blamed me for killing Yeshua, or if it ever comes up in a conversation I'm in, I'll turn it around to ask them why didn't the Gentile authority in charge warn the Jews present about his wife's dream? It seems extreme and probably not very helpful, but G-d sent the dream for a reason. Further, Pilate is speaking about the "truth". He didn't disclose everything he knew, he could have stopped the execution, he could have warned people by disclosing the dream, and he knew this was an extreme enough issue to wash his hands of and blame others. It wouldn't have changed anything in the course of events that took place, but maybe a few people would have changed their opinion and would have refused to go along with the priests so I think it's a fair option to consider. I don't know, but I'm human enough to know that we have ways of taking care of ourselves, making ourselves look good, that ultimately amount to setting up others for the fall. G-d sees through that and won't accept It. That is how I personally see Pilate at this point. Maybe there's more to his story later. I haven't looked into it, but in this situation, I don't think he was doing anything but taking care of himself. I also know people think less critically of situations that they would other wise be more critical of when it comes to trusted authority and politics. So I personally believe perhaps, if some of the people there heard the dream, that may have been enough for those certain individuals to at least question the situation a bit more and not just go along with the Priests. I don't know, but I agree the general opinion christian people have of Pilate is unfair and incomplete so that Jewish people come away looking like all the blame. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good morning Elizabeth! Tell me, are you sure that Pilate feared killing Yeshua? Not the Pilate mentioned by Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews." Pilate hated Jews so much that he would not have a good night the day he didn't kill a Jew. Do you think he cared if one was innocent or not? Yeshua had been arrested on the political charge of sedition for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) He was sure Yeshua was not innocent because, to be acclaimed king of the Jews in a place where Caesar was king was more than only to be found guilty. Hence, Pilate commanded that a plate with his verdict be nailed on the top of Jesus' cross which read INRI for every one from the public to read the reason why Jesus was crucified. |
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Post by alon on Aug 31, 2018 10:34:31 GMT -8
Good morning Elizabeth! Tell me, are you sure that Pilate feared killing Yeshua? Not the Pilate mentioned by Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews." Pilate hated Jews so much that he would not have a good night the day he didn't kill a Jew. Do you think he cared if one was innocent or not? Yeshua had been arrested on the political charge of sedition for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) He was sure Yeshua was not innocent because, to be acclaimed king of the Jews in a place where Caesar was king was more than only to be found guilty. Hence, Pilate commanded that a plate with his verdict be nailed on the top of Jesus' cross which read INRI for every one from the public to read the reason why Jesus was crucified. INRI is an acronym for the Roman Iēsus Nazarēnus, Rēx Iūdaeōrum, or King of the Jews/Judeans, It was common to post the charges above a condemned man's head in single executions (as opposed to the mass executions Pilate was knpwn for). And as was discussed, what Pilate feared was a mass uprising and a riot he couldn't control, since every male Jew was in Yerushalayim at the time and over half were followers, and all knew who He was as next in line for the throne of Melech Dovid. But you are correct- Pilate was an evil man, possibly a demoniac. His cruelty was legend even then, and he was later relieved of his post and sent to an obscure posting to live out his days in ignominy. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 31, 2018 15:06:38 GMT -8
Hello, I didn't mean to imply that Pilate accepted Jesus in my description. I was trying to comment on the irony of the situation; Pilate asking that question when Yeshua was standing there looking at him. It's actually more a comment on his blindness, but the dynamics with Pilate intrigue me though. What is the degree of his culpability given his attempt to avoid any? He feared killing Yeshua knowing He was an innocent man because of his wife's dream so he "washes his hands of it". Meanwhile, he didn't prevent it. He could have done that. He could have even warned people by disclosing his wife's dream. Instead, he tries to blame someone else, but I do believe that moment may have kind of haunted him because he only cared enough to take care of himself. He knew there was more to Yeshua and he's almost afraid to look more into it or something. It's just interesting to think through the possibilities because maybe he made himself more responsible on sone level by "washing his hands of it" . He knew enough to try and blame someone else, and I have a hard time believing he hadn't dismissed the same possible issue with others he had condemned to death as a Roman official so I don't think justice was a factor for him. I think it was just fear. If he knew that, there was something to fear, then he knew enough to speak more truth into the situation. Like I said maybe he should have disclosed his wife's dream for the sake of everyone there. If I were Jewish and someone blamed me for killing Yeshua, or if it ever comes up in a conversation I'm in, I'll turn it around to ask them why didn't the Gentile authority in charge warn the Jews present about his wife's dream? It seems extreme and probably not very helpful, but G-d sent the dream for a reason. Further, Pilate is speaking about the "truth". He didn't disclose everything he knew, he could have stopped the execution, he could have warned people by disclosing the dream, and he knew this was an extreme enough issue to wash his hands of and blame others. It wouldn't have changed anything in the course of events that took place, but maybe a few people would have changed their opinion and would have refused to go along with the priests so I think it's a fair option to consider. I don't know, but I'm human enough to know that we have ways of taking care of ourselves, making ourselves look good, that ultimately amount to setting up others for the fall. G-d sees through that and won't accept It. That is how I personally see Pilate at this point. Maybe there's more to his story later. I haven't looked into it, but in this situation, I don't think he was doing anything but taking care of himself. I also know people think less critically of situations that they would other wise be more critical of when it comes to trusted authority and politics. So I personally believe perhaps, if some of the people there heard the dream, that may have been enough for those certain individuals to at least question the situation a bit more and not just go along with the Priests. I don't know, but I agree the general opinion christian people have of Pilate is unfair and incomplete so that Jewish people come away looking like all the blame. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good morning Elizabeth! Tell me, are you sure that Pilate feared killing Yeshua? Not the Pilate mentioned by Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews." Pilate hated Jews so much that he would not have a good night the day he didn't kill a Jew. Do you think he cared if one was innocent or not? Yeshua had been arrested on the political charge of sedition for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) He was sure Yeshua was not innocent because, to be acclaimed king of the Jews in a place where Caesar was king was more than only to be found guilty. Hence, Pilate commanded that a plate with his verdict be nailed on the top of Jesus' cross which read INRI for every one from the public to read the reason why Jesus was crucified. I was basing that on Matthew 27:19; his wife's dream. I don't think he feared killing Him because He is Jewish. I think it was at least partly because of the dream his wife spoke of, likely as well as the issues you guys have brought up now that I understand a bit more. The issue we then need to reconcile though is who "the crowd" refers to in Mark 15:15. If we're trying to communicate a more complete picture that counters the antisemetic view, that phrase is going to have to be defined. |
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Post by alon on Sept 1, 2018 11:04:14 GMT -8
Mark 15:6-15 (ESV) Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked. And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barabbas. And the crowd came up and began to ask Pilate to do as he usually did for them. And he answered them, saying, “Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?” For he perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release for them Barabbas instead. And Pilate again said to them, “Then what shall I do with the man you call the King of the Jews?” 13 And they cried out again, “Crucify him.” And Pilate said to them, “Why? What evil has he done?” But they shouted all the more, “Crucify him.” So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.The Sadducees who were in control of the Sanhedrin would have already had their allies all rounded up- those supporting Rome and so who did not want to see this Yeshua crowned King. Rome and their puppet "leaders" the Sadducees always feared insurrection, so the last thing any of them wanted was someone anointed both king and Messia to these troublesome Jews. As we kow, Pilate was a monster who had no problem killing anyone, especially a Jew. But he was thinking a bit more clearly than the Sadducees at this point. I can almost hear him hiss quietly to the Jewish leaders "Not now, you fools, while the entire nation is right outside these very gates!" But they were determined. The courtyard at Pilate's residence has been excavated. My Rabbi, having grown up in Jerusalem has photos of many of these archaeological sites. This courtyard is the size of a moderate back yard, but with a porch and steps taking up about 1/3rd of it, or maybe a bit more. So with Pilate conducting the proceedings from the porch and Roman guards on the steps, you could cram about 100 people into the remainder. This was the crowd who was calling for Yeshua to die. I know it makes it seem like "all Israel" was calling for Yeshua's death. But by far most of Israel was just getting up and starting their day oblivious to what was happening behind the walls of that courtyard. Scourging according to the textual notes in most Bibles was "a severe beating with a multi-lashed whip containing embedded pieces of bone and metal." Isaiah 50:6, 52:14 (KJV) I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from  and spitting. ... As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
It is thought that Yeshua would have been difficult if not impossible to recognize, so it may even have been some time before anyone knew what was going on. The only early witnesses we are told of were His talmidim, and all but two were busy hiding themselves; one was busy denying Him, leaving one more, and that one of course was hanging himself. So my guess would be that very few knew early on what was happening, and when they realized it was too late to muster enough people to overcome the Roman guards and stop this- which of course would have begun the insurrection Rome and her minions feared. The crucifixion already being underway would have caused most to be depressed, and I suspect thee was a heavy demonic oppression on the city at that time. Ha'satan wants the throne at Yerushalayim, because it is where HaShem has chosen for His throne. To this day there is a demonic oppression there in Jerusalem. There is even a medical name for its' effects, as it is well known to medical personnel there: Jerusalem Syndrome. You can look it up on the net. Dr. Chester, my Rabbis dad, used to tell missionaries coming into Jerusalem that they needed to spend a few days away from Jerusalem at least every couple of months. Not all did it, and some went insane (hopefully temporary). One good friend of Rabbi's went into a deep depression then hanged himself. Even tourists who are there for just a few days are effected by this syndrome. Sometimes with ludicrous results! Preaching on the street corner nude or claiming they are the Messiah are not that uncommon. But EMS personnel and police are prepared and deal with it quickly, quietly, and efficiently. But to get back to the question of who the "crowd" was, they were friends, family and supporters of the Saduccean leaders, those leaders themselves, and possibly some quislings from the Temple service. But all had one thing in common; they supported the Sadducees and Rome Dan C
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Post by maranguape on Sept 2, 2018 14:05:05 GMT -8
Those words, "what is truth?"...ring in my soul. It's so poetic you know? There are so many ways you can take that. One might be thinking he is trying to asses this from a Gnostic perspective, you know? Pilate asks a direct question: “So then,” Pilate said to him, “You are a king, after all.” Jesus responds very directly that his Kingship is metaphorical and spiritual, not a challenge to the Roman Empire. Yeshua answered, “You say I am a king. The reason I have been born, the reason I have come into the world, is to bear witness to the truth. Every one who belongs to the truth listens to me.” And then, it's like.....well almost like that truth, that , and light that wisdom is seeping in to Pilates (whom I am told was a very cruel and dangerous man) mind, like an inkling, a woo'ing, even for this guy.....the slavemaster of Israel.....calling to him, even. Come to me.... And in nearly every version of the Brit' Chadashah I can find Pilate responds, as I think we all do sometimes, especially when the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, the light of wisdom the vehicle of Mashiach, illuminates and we begin to pull our head from the deluge of the deception of our ever important lives, and see that a world exists beyond this one. What is....truth? Fantastic post, I just had a few moments to respond in my day, but the thought you have written here is quite poetic and beautiful. Thank you for that. I wonder how much poetry one can find in the words, "What's is the Truth" because Jesus himself said, "Thy Word is the Truth." (John 17:17) This statement points to a lot of reality. Nothing metaphorical. Every thing is right there as Jesus also added that, to take possession of the Truth, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's when salvation becomes available. (Luke 16:29-31) And Pilate did believe that Jesus had the Truth; otherwise he would not have condemned him to the cross with a verdict which confirmed Pilate's decision that Jesus was king. His verdict was on that plate nailed on the top of Jesus' cross, INRI; that Jesus the Nazarene was King of the Jews in a Roman province at the time. Therefore, the only one to blame for the crucifixion of Jesus became known to be his own disciples whom Jesus had allowed to acclaim him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40) |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 2, 2018 14:31:34 GMT -8
I was basing that on Matthew 27:19; his wife's dream. I don't think he feared killing Him because He is Jewish. I think it was at least partly because of the dream his wife spoke of, likely as well as the issues you guys have brought up now that I understand a bit more. The issue we then need to reconcile though is who "the crowd" refers to in Mark 15:15. If we're trying to communicate a more complete picture that counters the antisemetic view, that phrase is going to have to be defined. Of course not! Pilate was much more than happy to kill one more Jew. Just to be Jewish, it was simply an added reason for Pilate to crucify another candidate and have a good night. |
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, and light that wisdom is seeping in to Pilates (whom I am told was a very cruel and dangerous man) mind, like an inkling, a woo'ing, even for this guy.....the slavemaster of Israel.....calling to him, even. Come to me....
and spitting. ... As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
