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Post by alon on Sept 2, 2018 15:29:23 GMT -8
I wonder how much poetry one can find in the words, "What's is the Truth" because Jesus himself said, "Thy Word is the Truth." (John 17:17) This statement points to a lot of reality. Nothing metaphorical. Every thing is right there as Jesus also added that, to take possession of the Truth, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's when salvation becomes available. (Luke 16:29-31) And Pilate did believe that Jesus had the Truth; otherwise he would not have condemned him to the cross with a verdict which confirmed Pilate's decision that Jesus was king. His verdict was on that plate nailed on the top of Jesus' cross, INRI; that Jesus the Nazarene was King of the Jews in a Roman province at the time. Therefore, the only one to blame for the crucifixion of Jesus became known to be his own disciples whom Jesus had allowed to acclaim him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40) Yeshua was born what the west would call the "Crown Prince of Israel," next in line to occupy the throne of Melech Dovid had the Jews actually overthrown the Romans. The people all knew this, at one point they even tried to force Him to be king, which would have started the revolution: John 6:15 (ESV) Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
The whole point of the two genealogies was to establish His right to the throne, and His disciples knew what He'd taught them. Furthermore His impending "sacrifice" was a self sacrifice for the sins of everyone who would accept and walk with Him. As you know, human sacrifice is prohibited, but there is no law against sacrificing yourself to save others. What He did was the equivalent of throwing Himself on a Roman grenade to save the lives of His fire team. And it was fitting that Jews (the Sadducees), Gentiles (the Romans), and even the earliest believers were implicated in the crucifixion, because: Romans 3:23 (ESV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and: Romans 6:23 (ESV) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is where Yeshua, who is God payed the debt for all our sins- Jew, Gentile, believer, and non-believer if he ever comes to the point of accepting this, the free gift of God. Dan C just FYI: Atsalyahu ben David has not posted here since before I joined the forum. But I am happy to respond ... |
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Post by Atsalyahu ben David on Sept 2, 2018 17:45:03 GMT -8
I wonder how much poetry one can find in the words, "What's is the Truth" because Jesus himself said, "Thy Word is the Truth." (John 17:17) This statement points to a lot of reality. Nothing metaphorical. Every thing is right there as Jesus also added that, to take possession of the Truth, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's when salvation becomes available. (Luke 16:29-31) And Pilate did believe that Jesus had the Truth; otherwise he would not have condemned him to the cross with a verdict which confirmed Pilate's decision that Jesus was king. His verdict was on that plate nailed on the top of Jesus' cross, INRI; that Jesus the Nazarene was King of the Jews in a Roman province at the time. Therefore, the only one to blame for the crucifixion of Jesus became known to be his own disciples whom Jesus had allowed to acclaim him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40) Yeshua was born what the west would call the "Crown Prince of Israel," next in line to occupy the throne of Melech Dovid had the Jews actually overthrown the Romans. The people all knew this, at one point they even tried to force Him to be king, which would have started the revolution: John 6:15 (ESV) Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
The whole point of the two genealogies was to establish His right to the throne, and His disciples knew what He'd taught them. Furthermore His impending "sacrifice" was a self sacrifice for the sins of everyone who would accept and walk with Him. As you know, human sacrifice is prohibited, but there is no law against sacrificing yourself to save others. What He did was the equivalent of throwing Himself on a Roman grenade to save the lives of His fire team. And it was fitting that Jews (the Sadducees), Gentiles (the Romans), and even the earliest believers were implicated in the crucifixion, because: Romans 3:23 (ESV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and: Romans 6:23 (ESV) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is where Yeshua, who is God payed the debt for all our sins- Jew, Gentile, believer, and non-believer if he ever comes to the point of accepting this, the free gift of God. Dan C just FYI: Atsalyahu ben David has not posted here since before I joined the forum. But I am happy to respond ... B"H, Yeah it's been a while I am very busy, but not at all disinterested with this conversation. I'm a corrections officer and I work 12-hour shifts, on top of that I am a staff sponsor for 100 some Jewish inmates at a prison, so my free time is spent volunteering for various Jewish communities ranging from Messianic to Reform to Ultra-Orthodox. So I have a lot going on but I want you to know that I think the Messianic movement is a work of Hashem even the Ruach HaKodesh. I am a talmid of RaYBash and we are a bit different Infuse of  and Mitzvot then I think the leaders of this forum are so I'm very careful to be respectful of this forums rules in my responses so as not to upset anyone. But I think it's safe to say that the statement of Pontius Pilate speaks volume to the mind of the Gentile, even in a positive sense that the Gentiles or perhaps specifically the Greeks of that time sought Enlightenment through knowledge. I think that this is a very admirable aspiration. But in that mindset it's important to understand that the is Enlightenment of itself the Rabbi of old said the itself is so deep it's like a sea even perhaps like an ocean, and the talmud, the pirkei avot, The Mishnah, The Gemara is like a ship for which to navigate that sea. I won't push my religious beliefs on anyone, but if that was true, how great must our Moshiach be, The Great Rabbi, The Living . I am so humbled and So Unworthy to be in his service, and in service to the Jewish people where once thought my self to be a Tzaddik, I am just happy to be a servant, even a child at the feet of such a great master and say, Ani Ma'amin be emuna Shelema, Ani Ma'amin. I believe that this Jesus is very real, and he is working in the heart of both Jew and Gentile to call his sheep back to himself out of the Nations, and I think he desperately wants to answer that question, " what is truth?". |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 3, 2018 8:43:29 GMT -8
INRI is an acronym for the Roman Iēsus Nazarēnus, Rēx Iūdaeōrum, or King of the Jews/Judeans, It was common to post the charges above a condemned man's head in single executions (as opposed to the mass executions Pilate was knpwn for). And as was discussed, what Pilate feared was a mass uprising and a riot he couldn't control, since every male Jew was in Yerushalayim at the time and over half were followers, and all knew who He was as next in line for the throne of Melech Dovid. But you are correct- Pilate was an evil man, possibly a demoniac. His cruelty was legend even then, and he was later relieved of his post and sent to an obscure posting to live out his days in ignominy. Dan C The point in discussion is not that it was common to post on the top of one's cross the verdict of a crucified but that Pilate had believed Jesus had been to blame for the charge of sedition against Home and that was the reason why he was crucified and not because of our sins. Jesus would not have contradicted the Word of God in Ezekiel 18:4,20 that no one is Biblically allowed to die for the sins of another. That only the one who sins shall die. That's the point. |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 3, 2018 9:42:15 GMT -8
I wonder how much poetry one can find in the words, "What's is the Truth" because Jesus himself said, "Thy Word is the Truth." (John 17:17) This statement points to a lot of reality. Nothing metaphorical. Every thing is right there as Jesus also added that, to take possession of the Truth, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's when salvation becomes available. (Luke 16:29-31) And Pilate did believe that Jesus had the Truth; otherwise he would not have condemned him to the cross with a verdict which confirmed Pilate's decision that Jesus was king. His verdict was on that plate nailed on the top of Jesus' cross, INRI; that Jesus the Nazarene was King of the Jews in a Roman province at the time. Therefore, the only one to blame for the crucifixion of Jesus became known to be his own disciples whom Jesus had allowed to acclaim him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40) Yeshua was born what the west would call the "Crown Prince of Israel," next in line to occupy the throne of Melech Dovid had the Jews actually overthrown the Romans. The people all knew this, at one point they even tried to force Him to be king, which would have started the revolution: John 6:15 (ESV) Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
The whole point of the two genealogies was to establish His right to the throne, and His disciples knew what He'd taught them. Furthermore His impending "sacrifice" was a self sacrifice for the sins of everyone who would accept and walk with Him. As you know, human sacrifice is prohibited, but there is no law against sacrificing yourself to save others. What He did was the equivalent of throwing Himself on a Roman grenade to save the lives of His fire team. And it was fitting that Jews (the Sadducees), Gentiles (the Romans), and even the earliest believers were implicated in the crucifixion, because: Romans 3:23 (ESV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and: Romans 6:23 (ESV) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is where Yeshua, who is God payed the debt for all our sins- Jew, Gentile, believer, and non-believer if he ever comes to the point of accepting this, the free gift of God. Dan C just FYI: Atsalyahu ben David has not posted here since before I joined the forum. But I am happy to respond ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How could have Jesus been born as the crown Prince of Israel if his father Joseph was not king? It doesn't make sense! I stand with Ezekiel 18:4,20 that no one could Biblically die for the sins of another. If Jesus had succeeded to sacrifice himself for the sins of everyone, he would have gone against that prohibition. The Jews, especially the Jewish authorities had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus as it was all between the Romans and Jesus' disciples. (Luke 19:37-40) I do agree with Paul in Rom. 3:23 that all have sinned. Of course, he would not include Jesus but Ecclesiastes 7:20 is clear enough that, "It has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." Jesus was a man upon for 33 years. Besides, he broke the Golden Rule more than several times. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. Would have Jesus liked to be addressed as hypocrite and brood of vipers? I don't think so. That's how he charged the Jewish authorities with; not to mention the physical and financial damages he caused to the moneychangers who had been authorized by the High Priest to help Jews coming from abroad to change their foreign money and be able to prepare a kosher sacrifice. The Golden Rule covered the whole second part of the Decalogue. Big transgressions right there! Now, for the wages of sin of Rom. 6:23, Paul was wrong. Death is not the wage of sin but of having been born. Babies die everywhere almost every day without having ever committed a single sin. Regarding eternal life, the Lord has no such a gift for man. The only thing eternal about man is Sheol aka the grave. Only HaShem is Eternal. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:122,20) JPS translation. |
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Post by alon on Sept 3, 2018 15:21:57 GMT -8
maranguape, most of what you say here is logical fallacy called “circular argument,” where you ignore what has already been said in answer and just posit the same arguments over and over like repetition will make it true. But I will nonetheless try to break it down more thoroughly for you.
Matthew and Luke both give different genealogies concerning Yeshua. Matthew recorded that of Yoseph through Melachim Dovid and Shlomo, and Luke that of Miriam through Melech Dovid and Natan. So as the oldest son of Miriam and Yoseph, both direct descendants of the line of Melech Dovid he was in the line to become king. And I did say “had the Jews overthrown Rome” He would have become king. There was no king in Israel under either the Greek or Roman occupation. However the Jews were meticulous record keepers and so they knew who was their Crown Prince, without a doubt.
Ezekiel 18:4, 20 (ESV) Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die. … The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
No, the verses you quote clearly say that God will not require any person to pay for the sins of another. However they say nothing of a sinless man giving up his physical life for the sins of others
And in saying that you ignore that it was part of the Sanhedrin, the Sadducees , who convened an illegal court (full Sanhedrin not present, held at night and with no notice, held too close to the feast day); they then found Yeshua guilty of blasphemy using witnesses they’d paid to lie. After this they handed Him over to the Romans for trial, but the charges were changed. Rome cared less if He’d offended these Jews, however they did care that there was a potential king to challenge their rule. But it was not His talmidim who accused him before Pilate. It was the Sadduccees in the Sanhedrin. So the Jewish people were involved through their leadership, just as Rome was involved through its’ appointed officials. But on a higher level you and I are involved because we both have sinned! You born a Jew, and I born a Gentile- both peoples are still involved, as He willingly died for all our sins.
Leviticus 19:18, 34 (ESV) You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. … You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Luke 6:31 (ESV) And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
Luke 6 is part of a discourse in meeting others needs. Lev 19:18 speaks of bearing grudges and plotting vengence; and verse 34 should be read in context also if we are to understand what is meant:
Leviticus 19:33-37 (ESV) “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. “You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measures of length or weight or quantity. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt. 37 And you shall observe all my statutes and all my rules, and do them: I am the Lord.”
In none of this, nor in any other place in the entire Bible do I see any prohibition against standing up and opposing wickedness!
That was common practice at the time. Yochanon used the same term against h the P’rushim just before he baptized Yeshua (if memory serves). Charging religious authorities with this term allegorically states that their doctrines or they themselves are connected to ha’satan in some way. And again, there is no prohibition anywhere against standing up to evil and calling it out wherever you find it.
We’ve covered this also. The High Priest and his associates were corrupt. They, the moneychangers and those who sold animals were making a profit in God’s House, the Temple. All that business could have been conducted elsewhere, outside the confines of the Temple itself. Marketplaces are not quiet, nor is their atmosphere conducive to reflection, contemplation, or even thinking about the divine. When Yeshua cleared those people and their beasts from the Temple He was cleaning the leaven out of His Father’s house just before Pesach. And again, He stood up to wickedness, confronting and destroying it wherever He found it. Against this there is no law.
We have covered this thoroughly also. But ok; there is a ressurrection and eternal life:
1 Samuel 2:6 (ESV)The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
Job 19:25-27 (ESV) For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been thus destroyed yet in my flesh I shall see God,
whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!
Psalm 49:15 (ESV) But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah
Isaiah 25:8 (ESV) He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken.
These are just a small sampling of references in the TNK which point to a resurrection. I gave you others before. So you can deny the resurrection, just as the Sadducees did. But it is a well established Biblical fact. That innocent babies die a physical death does not mean they will not be resurrected.
I would agree that only HaShem is eternal: from everlasting to everlasting. Or that He is the only self existant One; the One by whom all things exist. However I disagree that He could not make our soul to last forever, as long as He sustains a thing it can and will exist!
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
