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Post by mystic on Jul 19, 2016 4:50:24 GMT -8
So here goes another what I expect to be a very long thread. Alright, since becoming born again last year, I started my spiritual walk by reading the bible and every bible related articles I can find, then I started with CBN and the Copelands, Joyce meyer e.t.c. I go to a catholic church because it is only a few blocks from my house here in Queens, NY. Let me start with this for my understanding. Kepha, you said worshipping in church on a sunday is sinning, can you explain why please since in the natural world most people are off from work on a sunday and so that would be the logical day to attend?
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Post by kepha on Jul 19, 2016 6:27:16 GMT -8
Lol do you want the short or long version?
Lets look at what Elohim commands us is He Holy set apart day that we must worship Him on, all though we worship Him every day, the one day you should set apart just for Him.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day Elohim completed His work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. †
Gen 2:3 And Elohim blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because He rested from all His work on it, which Elohim had created to make.
Exo 20:10 and the seventh day is a Sabbath to YHWH your Elohim; you shall not do any work, you, and your son, and your daughter, your male slave and your slave-girl, and your livestock, and your stranger who is in your gates.
Is Sunday then not the Seventh Day Shabbat?
Nope it is not, looking at the oldest Nation and history of them. Yisra'el before there was division between the tribes and Jews known as Jews, then after that the Jews them self always celebrated the seventh day as Saturday. So the Shabbat was caring on from generation to generation. So we know for certain that the Seventh day always was and always will be on Saturday.
Now even today the word Saturday translate into Hebrew as Shabbat. שבת
that is also way they will say to each other peaceful Saturday as "Shabbat Shalom".
Now I know this is a very poor example to proof that Shabbat always was and always will be Saturday. Sunday is the first day of the week, be honest with your self and look at any almanac and see what day are first (Although I know there are some almanacs today that caught up on this and changed it to monday, ever since the Romance made today's almanac the seventh day was Saturday)
Satan made sure it is very difficult for us to keep Shabbat.
Sunday worshiping comes from a pagan tradition the day they worship there Sun god for the week, and true believers in the early congregations of the Messiach were killed because they refused to worship on a sunday. If this was not so then why did they kill all the Shabbat keepers that worship YHWH on Saturdays? It is a sin to worship on a sunday. Since it is out side the Will of Elohim and it is based in paganism.
This is the short version
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Post by kepha on Jul 19, 2016 6:36:53 GMT -8
Now that does not mean you are not allowed to worship Him like you would every other day, What you must not do is to make Sunday the Set Apart day for Him.b And that is what christian churches do.
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Post by mystic on Jul 19, 2016 8:07:57 GMT -8
Thank you very much for explaining and the history lesson! I had always thought people go to church on Sundays because it's their day off from work. So I am not understanding if someone cannot attend church on a saturday then they should not attend church at all?
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Post by kepha on Jul 19, 2016 8:30:37 GMT -8
Ok now I am really going to rock your world. Shabbat is not a if I can attend it I will do it this coming Shabbat. No Shabbat is a must it is according to the law that we must keep it. and it is from sunset friday till sunset Saturday. so goodbye are friday night going to the movies or go eat out or any thing not to the Honor of YHWH. So don't worry about Sunday cause you must keep Saturday. to answer you question to go to church on a Sunday is a sin and if you know it is a sin then better not do it.
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Post by mystic on Jul 19, 2016 9:38:05 GMT -8
I go to church on a Wednesday morning, does that make a difference? I am guessing not. So will I be better off in Jesus's eyes not going to church at all since there isn't a church open on Saturdays?
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Post by kepha on Jul 19, 2016 11:05:12 GMT -8
I don't go to a church at all. The Greek meaning I think it is Greek, is circus. and that is what I feel the christian churches are. They are a money making business and using the Word of the Elohim to make money from.
Mat 10:8 Heal sick ones, cleanse lepers, raise dead ones, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give†.
even people selling bibles Is not correct. By selling it for a profit you are taking El Shaddai's very word and making it your own property to sell for a living. I do understand If you charge printing cost hey some one must pay it and even if you want to give out one book for free to a 1000 people you can do the sums. To make profit out of it is a different story.We have no right to make a living out of the word Of Our Father that we are suppose to bring to people free as he gave it to us. Or to ask for money for a wedding service to be performed or for a funeral service. To ask for the church venue ok it is borderline for me, I do how ever understand it, the building cost money to maintain.
I do believe we must give our tenth to YHWH. Don't get me wrong. We all give our tenth.
To come back to your question, sorry got carried away there, we do fellowship on Saturdays when we can all be together at some once house, we are not so fortune to have a sanctuary, and if we can't be together due to distance, we do Shabbat in our own houses, by my self if I have to.
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Post by kepha on Jul 19, 2016 11:15:19 GMT -8
The good news message of the Kingdom of YHWH did not have a price tag on it and was entirely different than the commercial, money making message of today.
HRB2012 note on Mat10:8
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Post by alon on Jul 19, 2016 12:12:17 GMT -8
It is not a sin to worship on other days of the week than Shabbath. What is a sin is to replace the Shabbath commanded by God with another day of worship. Breaking Shabbath is also an egregious sin itself. The word Shabbath means rest, or cessation. It is a day in which all non-essential work is to be suspended and our attention turned to God and His creative work instead of our own. It was the first and most often repeated of the Moedim.
Moedim, plural form of moed, is usually translated as feast; but actually means an appointed time. The moedim were actually God’s appointed times- NOT “Feasts of the Jews” as they are characterized by the church. These are appointments made by God to be kept by all men who call on His name.
After the Jewish uprisings against Rome in 67 AD and 130 AD, there was increasing pressure by Rome as well as the catholic (universal) church then in its formative stages to change the day of worship from Shabbath (Fri sundown to Sat sundown) to the first day of the week on the Roman calendar (Sat midnight to Sun midnight). This was the day the Romans worshiped their Sun-god.
If they could destroy the Sabbath, they could remove one of the very foundations of Jewish faith. Shabbath was actually the very first and most oft commanded of the moedim:
Genesis 2:1-3 (ESV) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
Exodus 20:8-10 (ESV) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exodus 31:16-17 (ESV) Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”
Exodus 34:21 (ESV) “Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest. In plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.
Deuteronomy 5:15 (ESV) You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
The Emperor Constantine finally made Sunday worship an official decree, and forbade worship on Shabbath. Here is what Sylvester I (314-337 A.D.) the Bishop of Rome (Pope) during Constantine’s reign said of the Biblical Sabbath:
"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be execration [loathing or cursing] of the Jews."-- S. R. E. Humbert, Adversus Graecorum calumnias 6, in Patrologie Cursus Completus, Series Latina, ed. J.P. Migne, 1844, p. 143.
Sylvester was a willfully ignorant fool, since he did not know the difference in the weekly Shabbath and other moedim, which are also Shabbathot (Sabbaths). Yeshua was crucified on the preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread and rose on the weekly Shabbath, not on Sunday. The empty tomb was discovered Sunday morning, as the women would not defile themselves by touching a corpse on Shabbath. He also got the Jewish calendar and the Roman calendar mixed up (a common thing which has happened to many of us, including myself).
At any rate, the catholic church had hijacked God’s Shabbath, replacing it with the day of pagan worship of the sun. They claim they had this authority to do so because of apostolic succession- the unbroken line of authority from Peter to all the Popes. But this is based on a lie. Their authority goes through Roman quislings appointed as cohen hagadol (Hebrew High Priests) after the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem. These men were not Levites, and so their appointment by a pagan government was doubly an abomination. That the church, which never worshiped as the apostles did and in fact replaced every Jewish tradition and command of God with pagan traditions, is itself an abomination. Idolatrous and in rebellion against the God they say they worship, Christianity as a whole (but especially Catholicism) cannot truly be worship of the Elohim of creation. The things they do actually honor a pantheon of pagan gods rather than the Lord, God of the Universe and of creation. And Sunday worship is the foundation of their apostasy.
Since you live in Queens, you should be able to find a good Messianic synagogue where you can worship as God commanded somewhere in NYC. However I must caution that every synagogue that claims to be Messianic is not. Many are actually Ebionites who deny the eternal deity of Yeshua. Some are Sacred names and/or Two House (preaching that you have to say the names "correctly" and there is one law for Jews and one for Gentiles)- both of which are themselves abominations and contrary to the Word. Others are Hebrew Roots or Messianich Lite, preaching understanding but not full  observance. Some are cults, the most common of which seems to be an excuse for polygamy. So as always, I caution you to go slow in finding a synagogue. Check the out thoroughly, and if you have any questions we'd be glad to help.
This is a lot to take in, and if you ask someone in authority in the church about it they will have a polished and wise sounding response. I would urge you to allow us to answer that response, as I've heard it all before and argued the case against men with Masters of Theology degrees, in person and always successfully. However it was not my success, but God's, since all I do mostly is point out scripture.
Be aware too that in asking, and at some point and in your own time you should ask them, you will set in motion a course of events which will very soon require you to make a choice. They will demand you either submit entirely to their authority or leave their assembly. That is not a criticism- they are correct to do so, as they cannot have that kind of dissention within their ranks. Especially since you are looking for the truth, not their dogma. Truth is a guest not welcomed at too many houses of worship. It is one of the things that sets Messianism apart. We pass our understanding through the refiners fire many times in order to get to the truth. We not only allow but encourage questions, as long as they do not disrupt. Stopping the Rabbi's sermon to answer questions is usually considered bad form, for example.
I hopethis helps. It is a lot to take in.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Jul 19, 2016 12:50:40 GMT -8
So here goes another what I expect to be a very long thread. Alright, since becoming born again last year, I started my spiritual walk by reading the bible and every bible related articles I can find, then I started with CBN and the Copelands, Joyce meyer e.t.c. I go to a catholic church because it is only a few blocks from my house here in Queens, NY. Let me start with this for my understanding. Kepha, you said worshipping in church on a sunday is sinning, can you explain why please since in the natural world most people are off from work on a sunday and so that would be the logical day to attend?
To answer the original question, I attend synagogue. I keep the feasts which honor God instead of pagan holidays which, while purporting to worship the Christ actually honor pagan gods in both their times and customs. I keep Shabbath, as commanded, from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. I wear tzitzyoth as commanded to remind me of who I am and who I serve. I also practice some Jewish customs which also serve as reminders throughout the day. I look for things I missed in so I can be obedient. And I look for what is true and good in what I was taught in church, what has errors (which I correct in my thinking) and what is a lie of ha'satan and these things I reject. I try to do the same with Judaism, which is more difficult as I was not raised in this religion; but not impossible. I try to improve my knowledge of scripture also, which gets more difficult with age and infirmity. And I come here where I have a community of sorts I can fellowship with daily and search out the truth with like minded people.
Dan C
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Post by kepha on Jul 20, 2016 0:26:56 GMT -8
You will also notice how much all the true believers, no matter about different sects or worldly differences, speak out of one mouth, can you say that about christian churches?
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Post by mystic on Jul 20, 2016 3:44:00 GMT -8
But isn't the sabbath day [Saturday] only for Jews?
(Acts 15:19-20). Sabbath-keeping was not one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to force on Gentile believers. It is inconceivable that the apostles would neglect to include Sabbath-keeping if it was God’s command for Christians to observe the Sabbath day.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 20, 2016 4:25:53 GMT -8
But isn't the sabbath day [Saturday] only for Jews? (Acts 15:19-20). Sabbath-keeping was not one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to force on Gentile believers. It is inconceivable that the apostles would neglect to include Sabbath-keeping if it was God’s command for Christians to observe the Sabbath day. The apostles probably never conceived of the idea that Sunday would ever be an idea to come along centuries later in an effort to replace the true Sabbath. All they knew, did, and taught was Judaism. Isaiah 56 speaks of the blessings to foreigners who keep the Sabbath. |
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Post by kepha on Jul 20, 2016 4:49:24 GMT -8
Act 15:19 For this reason I judge not to trouble those from the nations turning to YHWH, Act 15:20 but to write to them to hold back from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and blood†. Act 15:21 For in every city from ancient generations Moses has those proclaiming Him, having been read in the synagogues on every Sabbath. Out of these words how do you come to the conclusion sabbath is not for Gentiles. They actually talking about if It is necessary to circumcise Gentiles in order to keep the Law of Moses ( ), be honest to yourself and read the whole chapter. Act 15:5 But some of those rose up from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, saying, It is necessary to circumcise them in order to keep the Law of Moses†.
This has nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath or not. Apostles by then knew that to be circumcise was the sign of the old covenant under which there is no forgiveness and that is why Messiach had to come. Yeshua renewed the blood covenant and His blood offer brought forgiveness, so it was not necessary to be circumcise any more to join the covenant between Our Father and The House of Yisra'el. And become part of his chosen people. They also knew that the only law that was made away was, were the animal sacramental laws given to them because they could not keep the commandments and broke the first covenant, Yeshua became our scarifies. The fact is that the gentiles was to keep the as well and the commands the keeping of Shabbat. |
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Post by mystic on Jul 20, 2016 6:11:34 GMT -8
Ok so of the many people who have to work on Saturdays for a living? What can they do please?
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to suit ourselves.
