As a believer in Christ, how do you worship, in the right?

[Elizabeth]

Jul 20, 2016 6:11:34 GMT -8 mystic said:

Ok so of the many people who have to work on Saturdays for a living? What can they do please?

This is where we rely on grace and pray for G-d to put us in a place where we can worship Him more fully. None of us can keep perfectly because that's just how far the world is outside of His will. We do the best we can with our situation and pray, pray, pray for G-d to open our lives up to do His will more fully. There is always grace, but we don't abuse it. We rely on it to get us closer to Him and where we need to be.

[kepha]

That is one of worst things in today's world system ruled by Satan. I been with out a work now for about 2 years and i can't find a work again cause every body today expect me to work on Saturdays. My family don't have the luxuries they used to and it is tough. This is one of the biggest stumble blocks for most people to follow the path of the truth. And Satan knows how much Shabbat means to Elohim and made sure to hit His people with it. Satan did not succeed by ending Shabbat by replacing it with Sunday so he made it just so hard as he can for people to keep it.

You not going to like what I say. Quite your job if they will not allow you to serve The Elohim. First try to see if they will give you Saturday off to worship.
Remember this verse when you have to ask them for Saturdays, maybe they will work some thing out.
(Exodus 14:14) YHWH will fight for you, and you be silent.†

Exo 14:14
(143) A great many believers fail to see YHWH intervene in their trials simply because they are continually fighting their battles themselves. If one could learn this valuable lesson to simply stand back in faith and allow YHWH to intervene and handle things, there would be many more miracles to report.

Is it better for man to disobey YHWH and loose his eternal life but keep his job, or to Obey YHWH's will and have eternal life. Remember we never said it is going to be easy, that is the christians that say that. Just remember that Elohim will repay those that obey Him with much more then they could think of.

[alon]

Jul 20, 2016 6:11:34 GMT -8 mystic said:

Ok so of the many people who have to work on Saturdays for a living? What can they do please?

Elizabeth and kepha both raised some good points. The Jewish sages interpreted to say we should do no unnecessary work. Food for example is prepared on Friday before sundown so we do not have to cook. But serving it is still work, but necessary. So is clearing the table afterwards.

In our small congregation we have a woman who is a Physicians Assistant. People still get sick or have accidents on Shabbath, so she has to take weekend rotations at work. Police, fire, ambulance, military, highway maintenance crews- all these require duty rotations on weekends, and all are necessary. The priests in the Temple all worked hard on Shabbath, as do our Rabbis today. So this is one class of work that is done on Shabbath and is not sin.

I live in a region which is primarily agricultural. Harvesting of different crops started two months ago and will go into September. Fieldwork and planting will go until the ground freezes. Work here goes 24/7 at times as some crops must be harvested at night, and often you are working to beat the weather. So at times people have to work on Shabbath. And while I applaud kepha's stand and his sacrifice, it would not be possible for some here to quit work unless they left the region. So the question you raised mystic is a tough one. I used to work those hours, sometimes going three days straight through and even eating most meals on the go. I am fortunate in a way that I became disabled about the time I started working my way through Hebrew Roots then coming to Messianic Judaism. So I never had to make that choice. God is good, even in disability.

Yes, there will be sacrifices. And yes it is tough balancing your faith against working in a world ruled by sin and deception. But the rewards, even in this life, let alone in the Olam Haba (the world to come) are great. But Messianic Judaism is not a thing to be entered into lightly; and again it is not to be learned and done all at once. I do not recommend just quitting your job to become Messianic. Start the search for a job which will allow you to take Saturdays off while you are still working. Again, the higher mitzvoth is to provide for your family and living in Queens I can't think there are no jobs somewhere there that are flexible enough you can take off on Shabbath.

There is another related issue here. I live not too far from the Canadian border, so I'm about as far north as you can get in the US without moving to Alaska. In mid-winter it gets dark just before 4:00 PM. That means even people with office jobs are getting off work after sunset on Friday. Our halacha is that they start Shabbath late, as this is unavoidable. And speaking of Alaska, close to the Arctic circle they have some horrendously long days and nights, depending on the season. Their halacha would be different, probably setting Shabbath by the clock (I don't know- but they'd have to do something different).

So there is some flexibility. Remember that in Jewish thought there is a hierarchy in the mitzvoth. As Elizabeth pointed out, God gives us grace. Our responsibility is not to abuse it.

Dan C

[mystic]

Yes, certainly a lot of great points here guys, thanks.

[alon]

Mystic said: But isn't the sabbath day [Saturday] only for Jews?

(Acts 15:19-20). Sabbath-keeping was not one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to force on Gentile believers. It is inconceivable that the apostles would neglect to include Sabbath-keeping if it was God’s command for Christians to observe the Sabbath day.

Kepha said: Act 15:19 For this reason I judge not to trouble those from the nations turning to YHWH,
Act 15:20 but to write to them to hold back from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and blood†.
Act 15:21 For in every city from ancient generations Moses has those proclaiming Him, having been read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

Out of these words how do you come to the conclusion sabbath is not for Gentiles. They actually talking about if It is necessary to circumcise Gentiles in order to keep the Law of Moses (), be honest to yourself and read the whole chapter.

Act 15:5 But some of those rose up from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, saying, It is necessary to circumcise them in order to keep the Law of Moses†.

This has nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath or not. Apostles by then knew that to be circumcise was the sign of the old covenant under which there is no forgiveness and that is why Messiach had to come. Yeshua renewed the blood covenant and His blood offer brought forgiveness, so it was not necessary to be circumcise any more to join the covenant between Our Father and The House of Yisra'el. And become part of his chosen people.

They also knew that the only law that was made away was, were the animal sacramental laws given to them because they could not keep the commandments and broke the first covenant, Yeshua became our scarifies.
The fact is that the gentiles was to keep the as well and the commands the keeping of Shabbat.

Acts 15 is the account of the Jerusalem Council. Reading in context, verse 1 tells us why they were convened:

Acts 15:1 (ESV) But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

These were zealots who were spreading false teachings to the new believers, gentile converts to a Jewish faith in Yeshua HaMoshiach. They couldn’t have convinced most Jews of this, since they knew that salvation has always been by grace through trust in Elohim. But since these were Jews spreading this heresy and gentile converts being about where we are as new converts, their arguments had a lot of sway. Now let’s look at your scripture in light of what was really being discussed:

Acts 15:19-21 (ESV) Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

“To abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.” This is not all that is required of even Christians. What about the Ten Commandments, for example? So for the church to pull this out of context and teach was annulled because this is all that is required is disingenuous, to say the least. These four things are a starting place; they are what is required for new believers to become part of the assembly and be allowed into fellowship.

But verse 21 is the death blow to the churches teaching that is done away with and Shabbath worship is only for the Jews. “For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.” The reference to Moses means - the was given to Moshe on Mt. Sinai! So these new converts got instruction in keeping every week. Where did they get this instruction? IN SYNAGOGUE! OK, when would you expect someone to attend synagogue? ON SHABBATH!

So once again church dogma has led millions to believe that Rabbi Sha’ul (Paul) and the Jerusalem Council were speaking against when, if read without the filter of church teaching this plainly says they were to keep . But it also says what I say here over and over- start slow. Only four things are required to start obeying what God said to everyone, not just the Jews.

kepha, circumcision is still a requirement of . It is also a huge stumbling block for some males coming into Messianic Judaism. Many never do get circumcised. These are still saved, but not fully obedient. And they cannot participate in Pesach, or speak in an assembly. But they can attend and be accepted in fellowship. One term for these people is “God Fearers.”

Acts 10:1-2 (ESV) At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

As to sacrifices being stopped, this is only the case because there is no Temple in Jerusalem. It was destroyed in 70 CE. Twice Rav Sha’ul is recorded as having done sacrifices after his conversion. He participated in the Nazarine Vows, which required sacrifices to be made. Once he underwent them himself, and once assisting others. Read Acts 17 (correction/edit/ I am so mortified: don't read Acts 17 ... read Acts 21 and thanks kepha for the catch there) for one account of participation where it is said he bought the animals to be sacrificed. Most translations will only say “offering” or something similar, making it sound like he just put money in the plate. But let’s look at what offering was really required to complete this vow:

Numbers 6:14-17 (ESV) and he shall bring his gift to the Lord, one male lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb a year old without blemish as a sin offering, and one ram without blemish as a peace offering, and a basket of unleavened bread, loaves of fine flour mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers smeared with oil, and their grain offering and their drink offerings. And the priest shall bring them before the Lord and offer his sin offering and his burnt offering, and he shall offer the ram as a sacrifice of peace offering to the Lord, with the basket of unleavened bread. The priest shall offer also its grain offering and its drink offering.

Also most translations will not specifically say it was the Nazarite Vow; they just say “vows.” But I’ve read many Christian commentators, and due to the specifc information given about these vows almost all of them agree it was the Nazarite Vows. Here’s a couple:

The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press- "There were four Jews who had taken a Nazarite vow. This ordinarily lasted thirty days, but they had incurred some defilement that had placed them in a condition of ceremonial impurity for seven days (v. 27). …. The elders suggested to Paul that he identify himself with these four and practice the common Jewish custom of paying the expenses for the sacrifices".

Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc - "So Paul did here; he contributed what he vowed to the offerings of these Nazarites, and some think bound himself to the law of Nazariteship, and to an attendance at the temple with fastings and prayers for seven days, not designing that the offering should be offered till them, which was what he signified to the priest".

This is getting long, so I’ll conclude by pointing out that the sacrifices before the crucifixion looked forward to Moshiach, and those after look back to Him. They commemorate what He did for us. Yeshua was not the final sacrifice, He was the ONLY sacrifice.

Heb 10:4 (KJV) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Dan C

[kepha]

Read Acts 17 for one account of participation where it is said he bought the animals to be sacrificed. Most translations will only say “offering” or something similar, making it sound like he just put money in the plate.

been through acts 17 twice now in what verse is it please?

My bible that I usually use does say it is the Nazarite laws
Num 6:13 And this is the law of the Nazarite: when the days of his separation are fulfilled, bring him in to the door of the tent of meeting,

Ok this is some thing I would like to take up with our Elder, Thanks for showing out.

[alon]

Jul 20, 2016 11:02:55 GMT -8 kepha said:

Read Acts 17 for one account of participation where it is said he bought the animals to be sacrificed. Most translations will only say “offering” or something similar, making it sound like he just put money in the plate.

been through acts 17 twice now in what verse is it please?

My bible that I usually use does say it is the Nazarite laws
Num 6:13 And this is the law of the Nazarite: when the days of his separation are fulfilled, bring him in to the door of the tent of meeting,

Ok this is some thing I would like to take up with our Elder, Thanks for showing out.

I mistyped. It is in Acts 18:

Acts 18:18 (ESV) After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.

Not only that, I mixed up my references. This is when Paul was under a vow. The reference to his helping is in Acts 21. Some days it just don't pay to get out of bed ... sorry.

Thanks for the catch.

Dan c

[kepha]

Act 21:26 Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the sanctuary, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them.
Ok I can see what you mean here. mmmm will have to talk to the Elder about this thanks.

[mystic]

Asking the Rabbi about this issue, he said Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath but if they want to get more spiritual with G-d then they can do so but they must [and get this] violate at least one of the sabbath laws so they won't be in total violation of the sabbath laws. So here I am trying by best not to violate any commandments and now finding out I would have to purposely violate one of G-d's laws if I ever were to observe the sabbath, what do you guys think?

[Elizabeth]

Jul 22, 2016 2:21:08 GMT -8 mystic said:

Asking the Rabbi about this issue, he said Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath but if they want to get more spiritual with G-d then they can do so but they must [and get this] violate at least one of the sabbath laws so they won't be in total violation of the sabbath laws. So here I am trying by best not to violate any commandments and now finding out I would have to purposely violate one of G-d's laws if I ever were to observe the sabbath, what do you guys think?

Yeah, he's just wrong. Does He accept Yeshua? I know some Messianic believers agree with Him, but I ask because for your own sake that needs to be a filter on what you hear and accept generally.

I don't know exactly where people have come up with this but I simply don't see it in scripture. I think it is the flip side of the coin of what we see in Christianity as kepha pointed out in a different thread; nitpicking with one verse to suit yourself and your own ideas or insecurities.

I see the opposite repeatedly throughout, specifically Exodus 12 talks about how foreigners are brought into Israel with the same expectations. I will point you again to Isaiah 56 regarding Sabbath and how G-d considers us.  Another passage, Yeshua's prayer for oneness in believers, John 17.

It also just makes no sense based on the Tanakh as a whole. Why would G-d accept non- observant people into His congregation when one of the main ideas in is that Israel doesn't mix it's ways? Why is Israel considered a light to the nations? What does that mean and what is the purpose? The whole idea was to exemplify and spread G-d's .

Bottom line, I think, is that some don't want to accept us into the congregation of Israel. That's their own issue as they're not G-d, that notion demeans the work of Yeshua, and we can read for ourselves and know what G-d wants for us. 

[kepha]

Jul 22, 2016 2:21:08 GMT -8 mystic said:

Asking the Rabbi about this issue, he said Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath but if they want to get more spiritual with G-d then they can do so but they must [and get this] violate at least one of the sabbath laws so they won't be in total violation of the sabbath laws. So here I am trying by best not to violate any commandments and now finding out I would have to purposely violate one of G-d's laws if I ever were to observe the sabbath, what do you guys think?

You really want to know what I think. It is statements like this that makes my blood cook. If you come under the second covenant you must keep the terms of that covenant....................sorry I can't say any thing else but what a loud of BS. Ask him to proof it out of the or out of the the Bible. And this from some one that does not believe Yeshua is the Messiach. Ah man I feel I want to cry. Please do not listen to this heresies. Sorry I am loosing it a bit here, it is just that he struck a nerve here lol

1Jn 2:4 The one saying, I have known Him, and not keeping His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in that one†.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of YHWH has been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.

[alon]

Jul 22, 2016 2:21:08 GMT -8 mystic said:

Asking the Rabbi about this issue, he said Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath but if they want to get more spiritual with G-d then they can do so but they must [and get this] violate at least one of the sabbath laws so they won't be in total violation of the sabbath laws. So here I am trying by best not to violate any commandments and now finding out I would have to purposely violate one of G-d's laws if I ever were to observe the sabbath, what do you guys think?

I will refer you to another thread where I replied when you asked about this:

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3944/jesus-say-eat-pork-bless?page=6&scrollTo=20970

Dan C

[kepha]

(Ecclesiastes 12:13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear The Elohim, and keep His commandments; for this applies to every man.†

(HRB Notes)
Ecc 12:13
(1908) After a life of seeking his own self interests Solomon finally realized the true meaning of happiness to life is fear of YHWH and obedience to His commandments. This applies to all people as the 10 commandments are a moral code that is the very character of YHWH and they have been used to institute civil statutes in society from time immemorial.

[jimmie]

Jul 20, 2016 6:11:34 GMT -8 mystic said:

Ok so of the many people who have to work on Saturdays for a living? What can they do please?

I work in the water and Sewer industry. I have 89 employees Most of which have to work rotation for emergency on the weekend.
Luke 14:5King James Version (KJV)

5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?