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Post by mystic on Jul 17, 2016 7:06:02 GMT -8
Hello guys, nice to be here, this is my first thread so please bear with me as I am a newbie to the spiritual world and I would appreciate very much if you guys can help me clarify things as I try to be righteous in my spiritual walk. I have been told by a pastor that Jesus said to "bless any food you eat in his name" and it will be ok, like pork. My understanding from the OT is God clearly stated you should not eat pork but what I am finding is people are having different interpretations of Jesus's message:
Mt.15:11, "Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
They contend this verse allows us to eat all things, can you guys clarify for me please? Thanks.
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Post by kepha on Jul 17, 2016 8:57:21 GMT -8
This actually has nothing to do with clean or unclean food, since He was speaking to Jewish people that did not eat unclean food He did not need to say to them that He is only speaking of clean food. It is like you are invited by a friend for supper is it necessary to tell your friend that you don't eat cat. No we all don't eat cat (well depends on what nation you are lol)
Mat 15:11 It is not the thing entering into the mouth that defiles the man, but the thing coming forth out of the mouth, this defiles the man.
So he was not speaking about unclean food but about food they did eat.
The Father said "(Leviticus 11:7) and the swine, though it divides the hoof and is cloven footed, yet it does not bring up the cud; it is unclean to you."
That is His law and He will never change or change His laws. So why will His Son Yeshua ha Messiach disobey The Father and teach people wrongly?
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 9:07:18 GMT -8
Hello guys, nice to be here, this is my first thread so please bear with me as I am a newbie to the spiritual world and I would appreciate very much if you guys can help me clarify things as I try to be righteous in my spiritual walk. I have been told by a pastor that Jesus said to "bless any food you eat in his name" and it will be ok, like pork. My understanding from the OT is God clearly stated you should not eat pork but what I am finding is people are having different interpretations of Jesus's message: Mt.15:11, "Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." They contend this verse allows us to eat all things, can you guys clarify for me please? Thanks. Yes, that is one of the verses they quote to justify their disobedience. But let's read this in context:
Matthew 15:11-20 (ESV) 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
This is speaking of the spiritual condition of the person. It has nothing to do with eating pork, and certainly says nothing of blessing it to make it clean. How can man bless something God declared unclean and so make it clean? And look at verse 20, "But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.” The original point was not what they ate, but how they ate it! It had nothing to do with eating pork, and anyone reading this with the blinders of church dogma removed from their eyes can easily see this, just by reading what is said in the text.
Here's the issue. There were many different sects of Judaism in Israel in the time of Yeshua; some if not most of them pretty strict in their Halacha, or the way they kept  . There were fences upon the fences to regulate how a person did everything in his day. But the sects all differed in the details. One washed the right hand first, while the other washed the left; and another held the cup differently. Outside the Temple they wouldn't usually try to tell someone from another sect how to do things. But inside their arguments could turn violent. Meanwhile Yeshua often upbraided them:
Mat 23:23 (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
They were so wrapped up in the niggling details trying to control their flocks that these spiritual leaders were not doing the things they should themselves. They walked in so many regulations they could not walk with God. And their constant arguing and attacking one another was counterproductive to say the least. So whatever they ate (and I promise you it was not unclean foods) or how they ate it didn't matter, because what came out of their mouths was indicative of a state of spiritual separation from God.
And by the way, verse 17 is talking about human excrement. In Jewish thought there is a comparison made here between that filth and the evil speech of these men in religious authority.
I hope that answers the question. There are other verses they will throw at you if you tell them this, but I promise you they are just as easily debunked. Here's the thing, God does not change.
Mal 3:6a (KJV) For I am the LORD, I change not;
Hebrews 13:8 (ESV) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Yeshua is refered to in scripture as the Word:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14a And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
So if in fact He is the Word, it was He who gave the to Moses. And if He is the same now as then, I don't see how He could say "I died so you can eat whatever you want." What He actually said was:
Jhn 14:15 (KJV) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And part of those commandments are the dietary laws.
Dan C
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Post by kepha on Jul 17, 2016 9:10:38 GMT -8
a pastor that Jesus said to "bless any food you eat in his name" and it will be ok, like pork.
Please ask your pastor to show you in the script where is stands that Yeshua said to "bless any food you eat in his name" and it will be ok, like pork and see him go yes but but but.
Mat 15:11 It is not the thing entering into the mouth that defiles the man, but the thing coming forth out of the mouth, this defiles the man.
Says nothing about blessing any food and it is ok to eat.
Hope this help and does not offend you. it is a great question that deceive a lot of people.
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Post by mystic on Jul 17, 2016 9:14:57 GMT -8
The Father said "(Leviticus 11:7) and the swine, though it divides the hoof and is cloven footed, yet it does not bring up the cud; it is unclean to you." That is His law and He will never change or change His laws. So why will His Son Yeshua ha Messiach disobey The Father and teach people wrongly? Ok so God was referring specifically to pork [thanks], are there any other foods listed [for gentiles] which we should avoid please? |
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 9:26:24 GMT -8
The Father said "(Leviticus 11:7) and the swine, though it divides the hoof and is cloven footed, yet it does not bring up the cud; it is unclean to you." That is His law and He will never change or change His laws. So why will His Son Yeshua ha Messiach disobey The Father and teach people wrongly? Ok so God was referring specifically to pork [thanks], are there any other foods listed [for gentiles] which we should avoid please? Leviticus 11 is where you can find the scriptural list of clean and unclean foods. And Gentiles are responsible to keep the same laws as the Jews, since their Creator is the same God. Also He said "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God." Lev 24:22
Look at it this way, whatever God gives us is good. These so called laws were actually instructions for righteous living. Would He allow us to do what is harmful and sinful just because we are not Jews?
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 17, 2016 9:32:50 GMT -8
Ok so God was referring specifically to pork [thanks], are there any other foods listed [for gentiles] which we should avoid please? Leviticus 11 is where you can find the scriptural list of clean and unclean foods. And Gentiles are responsible to keep the same laws as the Jews, since their Creator is the same God. Also He said "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God." Lev 24:22
Look at it this way, whatever God gives us is good. These so called laws were actually instructions for righteous living. Would He allow us to do what is harmful and sinful just because we are not Jews?
Dan C
I guess we could turn it around on the Christians and say the and His instructions about eating are good because He gave it to us, right? Is the word "good" the same word that is translated "unclean"? |
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 9:46:56 GMT -8
Leviticus 11 is where you can find the scriptural list of clean and unclean foods. And Gentiles are responsible to keep the same laws as the Jews, since their Creator is the same God. Also He said "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God." Lev 24:22
Look at it this way, whatever God gives us is good. These so called laws were actually instructions for righteous living. Would He allow us to do what is harmful and sinful just because we are not Jews?
Dan C
I guess we could turn it around on the Christians and say the and His instructions about eating are good because He gave it to us, right? Is the word "good" the same word that is translated "unclean"?
Unclean actually means "ritually unavailable" or in the case of foods, just "unavailable." A rabbit, for example is not unclean in the sense most Christians think of it, as if it is evil. A rabbit is what it is because God created it that way. But it is unavailable to us as food.
Strongs' gets this wrong, as they were too much influenced by catholic doctrine:
H2931 טָמֵא ṭâmê' taw-may' From H2930; foul in a religious sense: - defiled, + infamous, polluted (-tion), unclean.
This definition does however hint at the truth, as it says "foul in a religious sense."
Unclean was an unfortunate early translation which stuck, and defined Christian thinking for centuries now and probably yet to come.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Jul 17, 2016 9:53:30 GMT -8
From Leviticus 11: You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
I cook bacon for my son and I also BBQ sausages made with pork is that wrong? Meaning I myself don't want to eat pork but am I doing wrong by touching or preparing it for others?
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 10:05:53 GMT -8
From Leviticus 11: You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. I cook bacon for my son and I also BBQ sausages made with pork is that wrong? Meaning I myself don't want to eat pork but am I doing wrong by touching or preparing it for others?
You are getting into the finer points of the law here, speaking of what we call Halacha- the way we observe . I am going to say probably it is wrong. However I am not a Rabbi, let alone a member of a ruling body, and so am not really qualified to rule in these matters. One thing to consider however with your son is that you are the spiritual head of your family, responsible to teach him the way. If/when you do decide to become observant I recommend you bring him along into the truth with yourself. But this is what I meant earlier about going slow. It will take time to work these things out.
Dan C
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Post by kepha on Jul 17, 2016 10:11:30 GMT -8
All I can say about it is Avinu does say we are not to touch it, if we did how ever we are unclean till the evening. Why till then, in the evening they had their midva(spelling please)spiritual bath when they could be clench again.
Please feel free to correct me here.
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 11:04:53 GMT -8
On Tuesday, I will bring this up with the Rabbi and will let you guys know what he says. Meantime according to this: 24 “‘You will make yourselves unclean by these; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. 25 Whoever picks up one of their carcasses must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening. What does that mean "unclean till evening", does that mean if touch bacon that I will be ok after I shower in the evening? Also: 12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be regarded as unclean by you. I eat one fish which doesn't have scales but has fins, is that ok please?
Well, I'm a Texan, and I had to give up catfish (if that tells you anything).
And here again, our halacha will look different to that of an observant Jew. Since we do not have access to a mikvah we just do tevilah whenever we can. Our group has never even had a quorum (ten adult males) at shul, so getting a place with a mikvah built in it is pretty much out of the question.
What sect is this Rabbi you are talking to from? Orthodox? Reform? Messianic? Hebrew Roots? It would help to know where he is coming from. If he is actually Jewish, ask him some of the questions about the new testament. I bet you'll be surprised to find he has at least some understanding of it. Many Jewish Rabbis have a better understanding of the New Testament than many Christian pastors! My Rabbi was raised in Jerusalem, and he said they studied it in school there.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Jul 17, 2016 12:05:44 GMT -8
I am not sure he's an actual Rabbi, he's my son's Autism Psychiatrist, I will ask him on Tuesday at our monthly appointment.
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Post by mystic on Jul 17, 2016 12:07:22 GMT -8
Well, I'm a Texan, and I had to give up catfish (if that tells you anything). You mean because catfish doesn't have scales? |
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Post by kepha on Jul 17, 2016 12:34:55 GMT -8
You mean because catfish doesn't have scales? Now you getting the hang of it, yes |
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to suit ourselves.
