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Post by mystic on Jul 17, 2016 14:47:42 GMT -8
Then that will make life more difficult for me as I have Psoriasis so I am very limited in what I can eat. I don't eat most seafood as that is on my ban list especially shellfish. Do you guys think due to my health issue God will not drop the hammer on me?
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 16:59:28 GMT -8
Then that will make life more difficult for me as I have Psoriasis so I am very limited in what I can eat. I don't eat most seafood as that is on my ban list especially shellfish. Do you guys think due to my health issue God will not drop the hammer on me?
The idea of "a rule is a rule and a law is a law and never the twain shall ye break" is A purely Gentile thing. In Judaism, there is a hierarchy to the mitzvoth (commonly mistranslated as "laws"). For example many here have to fudge somewhat on keeping  because of spouses who are either Christians or unbelievers. The higher mitzvah is to preserve the marriage in most cases. Sometimes we are commanded to fast, however those with health issues and nursing mothers are exempted. I sometimes have to eat just a little because of the medications I must take. So the answer is that you should make every effort to obey, working into that slowly just like everything else. However if you must eat certain things, then you must. What and how much is between you and Hashem.
observance is not as difficult as it looks to the average Christian. It is only difficult when men make it so. And God is not unreasonable to either demand too much or to refuse to forgive when we fail (which I have done spectacularly here at times). He expects that it will take time to learn this, especially for those with problems like I mentioned. And frankly, I doubt any of us will learn it all in this lifetime. The glory is in the trying, not in a completed celestial checklist. It is possible to keep the mitzvoth- in part because Elohim does understand when we truely can't.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Jul 18, 2016 2:13:10 GMT -8
The glory is in the trying, not in a completed celestial checklist. It is possible to keep the mitzvoth- in part because Elohim does understand when we truely can't.
Dan C
Hmnn, that is what I have been doing, going through a checklist. I will look into fish options to see if there is an option for me for fish with both scales and fins. I had looked into fasting but I also have low blood sugar so I have to eat every 3 hours which is why I have never fasted. Speaking of which, a pastor had also told me that fasting can mean abstaining from something you like, like watching TV so she won;t watch TV one day each week. Is that accurate because every thing I have ever read on fasting pertains to diet? |
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Post by alon on Jul 18, 2016 4:01:45 GMT -8
Hmnn, that is what I have been doing, going through a checklist. I will look into fish options to see if there is an option for me for fish with both scales and fins. I had looked into fasting but I also have low blood sugar so I have to eat every 3 hours which is why I have never fasted. Speaking of which, a pastor had also told me that fasting can mean abstaining from something you like, like watching TV so she won;t watch TV one day each week. Is that accurate because every thing I have ever read on fasting pertains to diet? There's nothing wrong with making your list, especially just starting out. I'm guessing we all did that. My point is just don't get caught up in the list to the point you either become inflexible or at the other extreme complacent. Your dietary problems may well make it impossible to keep the commandments 100%. So do what you can. The other danger is thinking you're done when the list is all checked off. But there is always more you can do, and you can always do what you know so far better. But it isn't supposed to be a grueling task under threat of lightning bolts and fire. It is simply a part of your walk with God. The commandments/law/instructions never saved anyone. We are saved by grace through trust in God, just like it has been from the time of Adam. We keep the mitzvoth because we want ot do as He said so that we please Him.
Giving up other things besides food can be a form of fasting. I've heard this more in the last thirty years and mostly from Christians. But when the Bible speaks of fasting the term used is "to afflict yourself," which is interpreted as a food fast. For example, Yom Kippur:
Leviticus 23:26-29 (ESV) And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves [Or shall fast] and present a food offering to the Lord. And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
The commandment to "afflict yourselves" is backed up by the punishment of korah, or being cut off from your people if you do eat on that day, which includes sundown to sundown (and usually a half hour fence before and after, making it a 25 hr fast). So if I do have to eat on that day, I make sure it is no more than is necessary to settle my stomach from the meds.
Some sects of Judaism and a few misguided Messianics do not drink water or bathe on Yom Kippur. Like I said, this isn't really difficult unless we make it that way.
So while it may be ok to "fast" from games or TV or social networking, giving these things up is not a replacement for proper fasting, giving up your food for a day. Too many people are looking to replace God's appointed feasts in whole or in part with their way of doing things.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Jul 18, 2016 6:50:20 GMT -8
So if I do have to eat on that day, I make sure it is no more than is necessary to settle my stomach from the meds. Dan C
Thanks for the suggestion, that's going to be extremely difficult for me to know how much food won't drop my blood sugar level. |
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Post by mystic on Jul 20, 2016 9:47:02 GMT -8
Hey guys, someone just brought this scripture to my attention:
Romans 14:20-23
Don’t tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, all foods are acceptable, but it is wrong to eat something if it makes another person stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble. 22 You may believe there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. 23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.
The above scripture is suggesting to me that if you think you are not sinning by eating unclean foods then it's not a sin?
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Post by kepha on Jul 20, 2016 10:16:15 GMT -8
This actually has nothing to do with clean or unclean food, since He was speaking to Jewish people that did not eat unclean food He did not need to say to them that He is only speaking of clean food. It is like you are invited by a friend for supper is it necessary to tell your friend that you don't eat cat. No we all don't eat cat (well depends on what nation you are lol) Mat 15:11 It is not the thing entering into the mouth that defiles the man, but the thing coming forth out of the mouth, this defiles the man. So he was not speaking about unclean food but about food they did eat. The Father said "(Leviticus 11:7) and the swine, though it divides the hoof and is cloven footed, yet it does not bring up the cud; it is unclean to you." That is His law and He will never change or change His laws. So why will His Son Yeshua ha Messiach disobey The Father and teach people wrongly? Same for this, you must remember to who he is saying it to, other obeying people that will not eat unclean food.This is exactly what i was referring to when i told you Paul had the same problem about eating offered meat to other gods that they buy in the market. So whether he was talking about clean or unclean food is not a issue, we know he is talking about clean food. So what was he talking about? They were living in Diaspora and had to buy their "clean" meats from other nations like Romans and Greek markets. These Meat was most of the time offered first to their gods and that defiled the food for some believers. You must always read the whole story and not like the christian s just one or to verses they can turn around to suit them. you must see it in contexts and know a bit of the history around it. You will still learn a lot of their history and that opens up the Bible like you can not belief. |
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Post by alon on Jul 20, 2016 10:57:16 GMT -8
Hey guys, someone just brought this scripture to my attention: Romans 14:20-23 Don’t tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, all foods are acceptable, but it is wrong to eat something if it makes another person stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble. 22 You may believe there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. 23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning. The above scripture is suggesting to me that if you think you are not sinning by eating unclean foods then it's not a sin?
Close- where there is no knowledge there is no sin. But if there is knowledge, it doesn't matter what you think, there is sin.
This is part of another hard to understand passage from Rav Sha'ul. But there are some key phrases that may help us understand it:
Romans 14:12-22 (ESV)
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Nothing is tame (unclean) in itself. It is as The Creator made it. Some things are just unavailable to us as food. But look at the last verse, #23. If you even have doubts about what you are eating, it is sin. Looking also at the bolded verses it seems to me this is talking to people who want to eat things which are tame, telling them it will cause dissention in the body and for this reason they should not do it.
As with many of Rav Sha'ul's writings, you can say it means whatever you want and probably make a good case for it. But remember that to understand what Rav Sha'ul is saying, we must view it within the context of all his writings and, since it is scripture, with as the absolute authority. We already know lists some things as tame, unavailable. But what about Paul?
2 Peter 3:15-17 (ESV) And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
Acts 24:14 (ESV) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,
Romans 2:13 (ESV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Romans 3:31 (ESV) Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
1 Corinthians 11:1-2 (ESV) Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.
And even Christian clergy will admit, if pressed, that Jesus was a observant Jew.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Jul 20, 2016 14:16:05 GMT -8
mystic said:
alon said:
There is nothing new in Paul's letters. There is also a case in the old testament regarding eating unclean things. Does God give Noah the right to eat all animals in Gen 9:3? From chapter 7 we learn the Noah knows the difference between clean and unclean animals. So did God establish clean and unclean animals, before Noah, then tell Noah there is no difference? Then latter tell Israel that there are clean and unclean animals, only to change his mind yet again after Christ and say there is no unclean animal? That does not describe a unchanging God. No Jew eats unclean meat because of what is written in Gen 9:3 and no Christian should eat unclean meat because things Paul wrote.
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Post by alon on Jul 20, 2016 15:15:09 GMT -8
mystic said: alon said: There is nothing new in Paul's letters. There is also a case in the old testament regarding eating unclean things. Does God give Noah the right to eat all animals in Gen 9:3? From chapter 7 we learn the Noah knows the difference between clean and unclean animals. So did God establish clean and unclean animals, before Noah, then tell Noah there is no difference? Then latter tell Israel that there are clean and unclean animals, only to change his mind yet again after Christ and say there is no unclean animal? That does not describe a unchanging God. No Jew eats unclean meat because of what is written in Gen 9:3 and no Christian should eat unclean meat because things Paul wrote.
Genesis 9:3 (ESV) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
Very good point there jimmie. God had reasons for calling some animals tame. Pork, for instance is not that good for you, even if well cooked. Shellfish and catfish are like street sweepers for the bottom of the pond. Any harmful things for us that may not effect them may be in their meat when we eat it. Take the plants- God gave them all as well, however some plants are poisonous. I am guessing they were not included in Noach's dinner salad.
Rav S always tells us that we need to be careful when reading words like "all" or "everything" or "everyone." Even in English these are sometimes used to mean just a group or class, or even to indicate large numbers.
Luke 2:1 (KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
So the American Indians paid a tax to Rome, right? Of course not. It obviously means just the Roman world was taxed ... and I am guessing some Romans cheated and did not pay their taxes either. So all the world was not taxed, but we get that. However that same rule applies to other things which we tend to take literally. All meat is not for us to eat. All that is not tame is for us to eat, but since we want to eat other things and since the church has indoctrinated us so well, we look at it and say "Yippie! ... Bacon ..." 
As I have said, read everything in context and with a discerning mind. And with Rav Sha'ul read everything in context with the entire body of his works. It will make some of those difficult passages a bit easier to understand.
Dan C
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Post by mystic on Jul 21, 2016 2:14:57 GMT -8
I just got this info from someone:
This topic seems to me to be one verse contradiction another so PLEASE bear with me guys as I try to get to the bottom of this. I am not understanding why anyone would use any scriptures as in those listed above to NOT follow the word in Leviticus 11?
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Post by alon on Jul 21, 2016 4:18:19 GMT -8
I just got this info from someone:
1 Corinthians 10:31 if I partake in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God. 32Do not become a stumbling block, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God,…
"Do it all to the glory of God," maybe by being obedient to His ...
"Do not become a stumbling block," by eating unclean foods? How would eating clean foods be a stumbling block? And why would someone expect to not be denounced for eating unclean foods at synagogue?
And that word "church"- the same word in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) is always translated as "synagogue." It is translated "church" in the New Testament except when they want to show Jews in a bad light. And there were no Christian churches at the time this was written.
1 Timothy 4:1-4 But the [Holy] Spirit distinctly and expressly declares that in latter times some will turn away from the faith, giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach,
Well, you need only ask yourself who it is that has adopted pagan (demonic) practices. Who deluded people into giving up ? On the other hand, who is trying to root out and do away with all paganism in their worship. I leave it to you to figure out who the Ruach HaChodesh (Holy Spirit) is talking about here.
2 Through the hypocrisy and pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared (cauterized),
I have argued these things with Christians in all walks of life, including two who had Masters Degrees in Divinity from their respective churches (one Nazarine, one AoG) and both refused to consider the evidence in scripture. One started avoiding me and one refuses to speak with me again. Most of them, their eyes glaze over until we get to Christmas. Then they throw up a wall. Meshiachim look critically at scripture and we tackle the difficult questions. Several people at the AoG my wife attends will come to me when they have questions they are wrestling with instead of their pastors or teachers. So I ask you, whose conscious is seared and whose is open to questioning and searching out the truth?
3 Who forbid people to marry and [teach them] to abstain from [certain kinds of] foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and have [an increasingly clear] knowledge of the truth.
Uh, remind me who forbids their clergy to marry? Who has Nuns who cannot marry?
"To abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe." And what foods did God say He created to be received with thanksgiving? And which group, them or us, seems to you to have an increasing knowledge of the truth?
4 For everything God has created is good, and nothing is to be thrown away or refused if it is received with thanksgiving.
Hemlock in your tea, sir? How about some nightshade in your salad? And our special today is the Jellyfish variety plate ...
Obviously not everything was made to be eaten by us. So could this be one place where "everything" does not mean "everything." Maybe it means everything in a particular class- like maybe the class of food God said was good for us to eat. In Hebrew more than most any other language context is everything when determining meaning. And Rav Sha'ul more than any other Hebrew has to be read in context with not only the entire passage, but considering the entire body of his works as well.
So in answer to your question, yes I feel at liberty to eat pork according to the word of God.
Mozel tov ... But I'd suggest your friend read some of the things we've said here with an open mind. Then he can make an informed decision one way or the other. And we'd be happy to answer his questions as well.
This topic seems to me to be one verse contradiction another so PLEASE bear with me guys as I try to get to the bottom of this. I am not understanding why anyone would use any scriptures as in those listed above to NOT follow the word in Leviticus 11?
Your discernment is getting better, but really I do not see any contradiction there, as I just demonstrated. And we'll bear with you as long as you are seeking the truth. It's what we do ...
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Jul 21, 2016 5:07:19 GMT -8
23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
Who has changed the appointed times from what God said in his word (Bible) from seventh day to first day, Passover to easter, Unleavend Bread to lent, etc. Who has changed the laws God laid out in his word (Bible)from unclean meats to everything is clean. It is not those of us trying to keep/observe/obey/honor/follow/hallow God's law and appointed times.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 21, 2016 10:35:44 GMT -8
Ahhhh man, thought I had figured out how to edit down a quote. Anyway this is in response to Mystic's question about why I leave out the 'o' when typing G-d. That is what I was familiar with in my studies regarding Judaism when I joined the forum. I knew to not take G-d's name in vain in speech already. Only using the term G-d in prayer and praise for example, but the Jewish resources I studied were so careful with G-d's name that in an effort to protect His holiness, the vowels are not typed/wrote. I did that on here because I didn't want to offend and I usually choose to ere on the side of caution anyway. Now it is such a habit, I don't even think about it. |
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Post by mystic on Jul 28, 2016 2:17:05 GMT -8
Let's look at this please guys. Acts 10 is telling Peter
“Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
Way I am seeing this in Acts 10, this would be contradictory if God is listing specific foods for us to not to eat in Levitcus 11? God does not contradict himself so I am still not getting this
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- there are 70 faces to 
