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Post by alon on Jul 9, 2016 0:03:33 GMT -8
I was talking this evening with a man who had come to Yeshua and the Messianic faith from Orthodox Judaism. He still wears his peyot (sidelocks). We talked about several things, including the depth of meaning in the Hebrew aleph-bet. Here’s one interesting thing I can remember from this conversation: The first letter of the aleph-bet is Aleph- א. The last is tov- ת. Together they make up the word ‘at’- את . Yeshua said He was the Aleph v'Tov, the first and the last. Aleph (א), the ox, or the Strong One (Elohim) pulls us toward the mark. When plowing, you pick a mark and keep your aim towards it so the furrows will be straight. HaShem draws us to Himself. Tov (ת) is the covenant, which when we accept it then we reciprocate by becoming instruments through which God brings others to Himself. The ancient symbol for tov was a cross, also resembling an ancient plow. So the mark is a covenant relationship with Hashem. The middle letter in Hebrew aleph-bet is mem (ם). Mem represents the chaos of water crashing against the shore. But water, when under control also sustains life. Aleph Mem Tov spells emet- truth- אםת So when under control by HaShem and His covenant we get life form His  . The Jews say the seal of God is the truth. The truth of HaShem is what we as Meshiachim strive for always. If we remove The Word (aleph, Yeshua) from our understanding however, we are left with met- death- םת . The now unbridled chaos of false doctrine destroys our covenant relationship, and spiritually we die. Just an interesting little tidbit. Dan C |
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Post by garrett on Jul 9, 2016 14:30:08 GMT -8
Would you be able to talk some more about this man or would it violate his personal privacy? It's a very interesting thing to come across stories of Ultra Orthodox (haredim) who recognize Yeshua as the Messiah. I'm curious about his thoughts on keeping his peyot, how he practices his faith, etc. Some people who were raised Jewish rid themselves of a lot of these things and it makes me a bit  . It is their personal decision though...who is his support system? I read of a man (his name escapes me) who was a brilliant young student at Yeshiva, graduated early, became a rabbi and had a photographic memory when it came to the Talmud. He could literally quote anything. When he eventually shared his discovery of Yeshua as the Messiah (being that the only book he had in a motel room one night was a copy of the "New Testament", he started to really question some of his positions) with his Orthodox community in New York, he was completely rejected. However, he still maintained a observant life and kept all kosher dietary standards. Apparently he saw nothing controversial about doing this at all. To me, it is nothing short of miraculous when something like this occurs. So naturally I'm curious about the details. If it needs to remain private then I'm okay with that too. Thanks for sharing this. |
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Post by alon on Jul 10, 2016 11:50:39 GMT -8
l really do not know much about him. He is a member of one of our umbrella organizations (Tora Light Ministries) synagogues. He keeps , dresses the same and keeps most of the customs he always did because he came into Messianic Judaism, not Christianity when he became a believer. We do not teach that a Jew gives up his Jewishness when coming to Yeshua. Quite the opposite, we teach he is still Jewish, and it is the Christian coming to Messianism who must change. Not to say there aren't many ideas in Orthodox Judaism he must give up; and like us he will grow in knowledge step by step and these will be corrected over time.
I wish my memory was better, because the knowledge base he is starting from is so far greater than where a Christian, even one holding a Doctorate of Theology, is starting from. We spoke a lot about the Hebrew language, its nuances and how like scripture everything relates, like a woven tapestry. Gematria (I was completely blown out of the water there) and Talmud. The different Talmuds and Mishna's, and their subdivisions (again I was quickly lost) ... in short, I think the main reason for our conversation is the Almighty (blessed be He) saw fit to humble me!
There is one thing he said to me however that really stuck; and it is an important point if I ever get the chance to speak to a Jewish person about Yeshua. According to him, most Jews he knows do not have a problem with the fact God could concentrate His essence in human form. They just do not think He would do so as HaMoshiach. They believe Messiah must be a man- it is the deity of Yeshua which makes them reject Him. That I am going to have to think on a bit.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 16, 2016 13:00:05 GMT -8
There is one thing he said to me however that really stuck; and it is an important point if I ever get the chance to speak to a Jewish person about Yeshua. According to him, most Jews he knows do not have a problem with the fact God could concentrate His essence in human form. They just do not think He would do so as HaMoshiach. They believe Messiah must be a man- it is the deity of Yeshua which makes them reject Him. That I am going to have to think on a bit.
Dan C
I have thought about this before. I don't know much about Jewish thinking, but this is where I came to. Let's go back to when they asked for a human King (1 Samuel 8:7), G-d tells them that in asking for a human King, they are rejecting Him. Nevertheless, they get a human King according to His will, but still His will is that He be their King. How does He reconcile that potential inconsistency in His perfect will? We say Yeshua. Now consider that we are also told that G-d's Kingdom as well as David's Kingdom will last forever. We can take that literally and, again, answer Yeshua. How do they understand, and if they don't take it literally, I am guessing a lot of things they do would get a bit flimsy. Also, their prayers are almost the perfect plea and proclamation, in my admittedly biased ears, for G-d to answer Yeshua. Repeatedly in prayer G-d is hailed as King, and they pray for His eternal Kingdom. All of this while waiting and pleading for a human King. Again, we have no conflict between asking for both as we see the answer He gives as Yeshua. |
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Post by garrett on Jul 17, 2016 8:23:58 GMT -8
There is one thing he said to me however that really stuck; and it is an important point if I ever get the chance to speak to a Jewish person about Yeshua. According to him, most Jews he knows do not have a problem with the fact God could concentrate His essence in human form. They just do not think He would do so as HaMoshiach. They believe Messiah must be a man- it is the deity of Yeshua which makes them reject Him. That I am going to have to think on a bit.
Dan C
I have thought about this before. I don't know much about Jewish thinking, but this is where I came to. Let's go back to when they asked for a human King (1 Samuel 8:7), G-d tells them that in asking for a human King, they are rejecting Him. Nevertheless, they get a human King according to His will, but still His will is that He be their King. How does He reconcile that potential inconsistency in His perfect will? We say Yeshua. Now consider that we are also told that G-d's Kingdom as well as David's Kingdom will last forever. We can take that literally and, again, answer Yeshua. How do they understand, and if they don't take it literally, I am guessing a lot of things they do would get a bit flimsy. Also, their prayers are almost the perfect plea and proclamation, in my admittedly biased ears, for G-d to answer Yeshua. Repeatedly in prayer G-d is hailed as King, and they pray for His eternal Kingdom. All of this while waiting and pleading for a human King. Again, we have no conflict between asking for both as we see the answer He gives as Yeshua. "They believe Messiah must be a man - it is the deity of Yeshua which makes them reject Him." I wonder what your new friend's reasons were for accepting this "man" as deity? Just some stuff off the top of my head: Many in the observant world use the reason of HaShem being against "human sacrifice." Take it a step further and we have G-d sacrificing Himself! However, (and especially to the Pharisees who believed in resurrection) Yeshua reveals Himself as the first resurrected person, just as He said He would do. Also, no "mere man" could be deity. But Yeshua was no mere man. If prophecy is true (and it is) he was perfect because he was without blemish - free of all sin. And He perfectly fulfilled/lived the . Many in the orthodox and Lubavitcher world earnestly await the Moshiach (I see the bumper stickers - "Moshiach Now!"). It's a very personal expectation with hope and I take their yearnings to heart. I suggest that the odds of a "mere man" bringing about world peace (as the orthodox see it) and redemption for Israel as an even bigger stretch than to believe that a physical man who is also deity, will do the very same. Which is easier to believe on a practical level? if G-d does not need a "son" then why would he empower a man with such complete global influence? ....This never-to-be-messiah is NOT repeatedly woven into the fabric of the entire TaNaKh. On the other hand, Yeshua is. On the topic of human sacrifice again, Jewish religious leaders handed Him over and Romans executed Him. By denying His deity they did not have to think of this as human sacrifice but rather as blasphemy charges by Yeshua thus the consequence of crucifixion. How many others found themselves on a Roman crucifixion stake for calling out the religious elite in Jerusalem? I know that so many of these arguments are circular with those who believe vs those who don't believe but it's amazing that we have no substantial opposing documentation, writings, eyewitness accounts that contradict the life, actions, words and deeds of Yeshua. Have a great day - garrett |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 17, 2016 8:47:15 GMT -8
Really interesting thoughts Garrett. Makes sense to me and I understand you, but how far that goes with non-Messusnic Jews I couldn't guess. I don't know how far of a stretch this is either. but I have also wondered if Messiah as some Jews see Him would kind of be like G-d setting them up for a type of idolatry. I don't know, it's just crossed my mind. I don't want to name names or make anyone feel bad, but...... did that Alon invite this gentlemen to join the forum?  Maybe he thought we would get to be a bit too much. I could see that. We are pretty needy, but it would be nice see how far our thoughts go and learn more from there. |
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 9:59:12 GMT -8
I don't want to name names or make anyone feel bad, but...... did that Alon invite this gentlemen to join the forum? Maybe he thought we would get to be a bit too much. I could see that. We are pretty needy, but it would be nice see how far our thoughts go and learn more from there.
I only wish ...
Dan C
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Post by garrett on Jul 17, 2016 13:07:47 GMT -8
Really interesting thoughts Garrett. Makes sense to me and I understand you, but how far that goes with non-Messusnic Jews I couldn't guess. I don't know how far of a stretch this is either. but I have also wondered if Messiah as some Jews see Him would kind of be like G-d setting them up for a type of idolatry. I don't know, it's just crossed my mind. I don't want to name names or make anyone feel bad, but...... did that Alon invite this gentlemen to join the forum? Maybe he thought we would get to be a bit too much. I could see that. We are pretty needy, but it would be nice see how far our thoughts go and learn more from there. I know that Orthodox Jews see belief in Yeshua as idolatry - from my experience. But the interesting thing is that they speak in terms of the "coming Moshiach" on a much more personal level, as someone they can relate to and anxiously await. He is supposed to "rescue us". How ironic. I've often gotten the impression that HaShem is just a bit out of reach for them, yet the Moshiach is just a handshake and a hug away. The responses drawn from talk of HaShem versus the responses drawn from talk of the Moshiach are so emotionally different. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 17, 2016 15:31:33 GMT -8
No worries Alon. You were just soaking up all the knowledge you could. I am sure that's what we all would have done. However, for any of us who get such a chance again, we can extend an invitation perhaps.
Garrett, I guess we would be idolaters if Yeshua isn't G-d. However, since we say He is, based on our beliefs we're not. Which in my mind brings us back to can or must Messiah be G-d.
However, based on your description I would guess at least some of them are committing idolatry in their understanding of Messiah based on their own beliefs. Do they love or desire Moshiach more than G-d. If so then.....
Their love for Messiah and the intimate personable feeling for him in contrast to their distance from G-d kind of points at a grace and understanding G-d has for humans and extended in Yeshua. Moses was closer to G-d than anyone as we are told they talked together in a way no one else has. He wanted to see G-d, but couldn't. Meanwhile, we have Yeshua. I think the closer you get to G-d, the closer you want and need to be. But that leaves Him in the position to somehow come to our level so to speak. I think we can see this dynamic in Moses longing to see His face, but unable to.
This is just me brainstorming. At this point this is how I see it. Christians believe in a spiritual/heavenly salvation and Jews a physical/earthly salvation. We believe in both. We know Christian logic and have a better idea how to counter it. Therefore, I am drawn to look for and study out references and passages regarding a spiritual salvation in the Tanakh. I also feel drawn to compare the Messianic passages they take literally with the ones they understand more figuratively. Do you know some of the main passages non-Messisnic Jews see as referencing Messiah?
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Post by garrett on Jul 17, 2016 18:51:07 GMT -8
No worries Alon. You were just soaking up all the knowledge you could. I am sure that's what we all would have done. However, for any of us who get such a chance again, we can extend an invitation perhaps. Garrett, I guess we would be idolaters if Yeshua isn't G-d. However, since we say He is, based on our beliefs we're not. Which in my mind brings us back to can or must Messiah be G-d. However, based on your description I would guess at least some of them are committing idolatry in their understanding of Messiah based on their own beliefs. Do they love or desire Moshiach more than G-d. If so then..... Their love for Messiah and the intimate personable feeling for him in contrast to their distance from G-d kind of points at a grace and understanding G-d has for humans and extended in Yeshua. Moses was closer to G-d than anyone as we are told they talked together in a way no one else has. He wanted to see G-d, but couldn't. Meanwhile, we have Yeshua. I think the closer you get to G-d, the closer you want and need to be. But that leaves Him in the position to somehow come to our level so to speak. I think we can see this dynamic in Moses longing to see His face, but unable to. This is just me brainstorming. At this point this is how I see it. Christians believe in a spiritual/heavenly salvation and Jews a physical/earthly salvation. We believe in both. We know Christian logic and have a better idea how to counter it. Therefore, I am drawn to look for and study out references and passages regarding a spiritual salvation in the Tanakh. I also feel drawn to compare the Messianic passages they take literally with the ones they understand more figuratively. Do you know some of the main passages non-Messisnic Jews see as referencing Messiah? Elizabeth - I believe that you are correct when you say many are committing idolatry in their understanding of Messiah based on their own beliefs. From the things I read, even scouring through Chabad.org, very few scriptural references are given to create a base from which to believe in the coming Messiah and the Messianic Era, except that it will be fantastic, peaceful and that we'll understand everything so much more clearly ( , Talmud, etc). But I never hear much about worship, blessing G-d for what He is. So yeah, some walk a fine line there... My theory as to why the majority of the world's Jews are secular is because Judaism is often pretty impersonal, no matter how many feel good articles are written about HaShem or about performing mitzvot. It just doesn't touch us lowly people enough to actually give a glimpse of hope. Without hope we lose purpose. Some of the "few" scriptures I come across regarding the orthodox view of the coming Moshiach are Micah 4:3 "He shall judge between many peoples, And rebuke strong nations afar off: They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks: Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore. And Isaiah 11:9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea. And Malachi 4:5: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Mention is also made from the prophecy through Ezekiel of the Battle of Gog and Magog before the coming of Moshiach. And a lot of emphasis is placed on good deeds, good deeds, good deeds. Good deeds are wonderful but to what end when we deny the Creator who has defined what is "good" and what is evil? This is where physical, national and earthly redemption break down. This is where spiritual needs must be met and made manifest (finally) because, truly, what we all really want is rescue from death. Then we can glorify G-d. We were made for His glory. Lastly, I often find that a lot of explanation regarding the (non-Yeshua) comes from people, however great they may be. It comes from Maimonades and other sages, Talmud, the Mishna, etc. But you start giving me solid scripture after scripture, layer after layer that trumps what was occurring in the 1st Century and I'll re-think things. Until then, this argument holds no water. The only thing holding water at this point is the resolve of some very stiff-necked people - and I'm thankful to not be in the particular category. The schlichim (the disciples) and Paul would have to be complete and utter geniuses of all the world's history to be able to take this Yeshua and piece together everything about Him (from geneology, to his mishnas, to his miracles, to his parables, to challenges to a theocracy, to his foretelling of the literal DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE - HELLO?? , to his literal quotes from TaNaKh concerning HIMSELF, to his (basically) prophecy of his believers being kicked out of the synagogues. I could literally go on for paragraphs and maybe I will someday. But - the spirit of denial is just as strong now as it was then. And it was spearheaded by religious authorities. And then along came the Universal Church. Great.
So personally, after thinking about this non-Yeshua messiah for the past couple of years...I think it's a sham. The testimonies, the epistles, the letters. The "New Testament" - you (the shlichim) just can't make this stuff up. No one is that smart, especially during the tumultuous times of Roman occupation in Eretz Yisroel, while the nation itself is in the process of its own inevitable downfall. The odds are too ridiculously great that Yeshua is the Messiah and I'm going with those odds.
Religious Jewry exists today because Adonai made a Covenant with Abraham. That is why there are still a remnant of religious Jews. So many with good intentions and pure hearts - but wrong on some pivotal things - and right on a LOT of other pivotal things. No other group of people has lasted this long throughout history, intact, in spite of dispersion and any other thing history shows us. And people are being called back to the Land.
Though I don't understand everything, and never will:
I Timothy 3:16: "Now beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness:
He was revealed in the flesh,
Vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Trusted throughout the world,
Taken up in glory
No Man can spread the news of the G-d Israel like Yeshua has already done for the past 2,000 years. That is why He is known (to some degree or other) the world over. THAT is Deity.
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2016 22:01:36 GMT -8
Garrett, pretty thought provoking:
People are people. Christians walk that same line in many ways, with their crosses and statues and Asher Poles and other ornamentation. Their preaching of the "God of the Old Testament vs. the God of the New" ... and on it goes. We as Meshiachim need to guard against this ourselves, as it is an easy pit to fall into.
Hmmm, I might have to disagree there. Maybe with some, but to most Jews Hashem is much more personal than 'Jesus' is to almost any Christians; who by the way have their own brand of feel good doctrines and articles. Again, we need to use their mistakes as a warning.
Tzedikah, or charity is an important part of Jewish life. It is almost (if not outright) regarded as a right of the poor to receive tzedikah; and even they must give to those less fortunate. It is an obligation on everyone. Prayers said in the High Holidays tell us God has inscribed judgment against all who've sinned, but teshuvah (repentance), tefilah (prayer) and tzedakah can reverse the judgement.
We don't believe a good deed cancels a bad one, but we do believe forgiveness comes with repentence. And there are scriptural basis for tzedikah:
Leviticus 19:9-10 ion (ESV) “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 26:12 (ESV) “When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled,
Jews do tend to look at all writings of their people as profitable for understanding and instruction, including the B'rith Chadashah (New Testament). Some hold Talmudic writings as more authoritative than scripture, but by no means all of them. One thing that fuels this view however is much of the Gemara was written during periods of severe persecution; and there was a lot of anger and mistrust of Christianity engendered in those writings. With over 2000 yrs of persecution still fresh in their minds (the Jews study history) is it any wonder so many hold fast to these writings? And to be fair, Christian writings during most of this period have shown as much or more hatred and ill will to both Judaism and our own predecessors the Nots'rim.
I don't think we can give a definitive answer for why so many Jews are secular Jews any more than we can say why so many Christians are apostate or why so many Meshiachim fall away. For some Jews the fences their sect requires them to keep are just too much. For others, they think their good works will get them into heaven. Still others believe in the national salvation of their people so strongly they think God will just give a blanket pardon. And probably a thousand more reasons I've never heard. But again, people are people and I'm sure we can all relate; and it almost goes without saying we need to guard against anything that robs our trust in or hinders our walk with a personal God.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 18, 2016 5:16:50 GMT -8
Clearly we would think both Jews and Christians have weaknesses, and they think we do. Here's why I love our conversations. We think we do too. I learned a lot in your post Garrett because I am really unfamiliar with Judaism. It is easier for me to find the weak points in Christianity simply because that's what I am familiar with. Point being, I hope you keep sharing but I do understand the need to guard the limitations of my perspective as I try to always do. We also talk very generally on here simply because of our own limitations in what we can understand and grapple with. Just another thing to keep in mind. There are a lot of questions spinning in my mind right now. Let me just stop, check, and clarify one if I can. Am I right in my understanding that generally speaking in Jewish minds good deeds bring about salvation? It may seem like a silly question, but heeding Alon's warning and remembering all the Christianized thinking I was drenched in, I just want to check this understanding. |
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Post by alon on Jul 18, 2016 13:39:54 GMT -8
Clearly we would think both Jews and Christians have weaknesses, and they think we do. Here's why I love our conversations. We think we do too. I learned a lot in your post Garrett because I am really unfamiliar with Judaism. It is easier for me to find the weak points in Christianity simply because that's what I am familiar with. Point being, I hope you keep sharing but I do understand the need to guard the limitations of my perspective as I try to always do. We also talk very generally on here simply because of our own limitations in what we can understand and grapple with. Just another thing to keep in mind. There are a lot of questions spinning in my mind right now. Let me just stop, check, and clarify one if I can. Am I right in my understanding that generally speaking in Jewish minds good deeds bring about salvation? It may seem like a silly question, but heeding Alon's warning and remembering all the Christianized thinking I was drenched in, I just want to check this understanding.
That would probably depend on the Jewish mind!  But generally speaking, yes (as I understand it) teshuvah (repentance), tefilah (prayer) and tzedakah (charity or mercy) are important to the average Jew for salvation (although my Rabbi would probably be quick to point out there are no average Jews!  ).
Dan C
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Post by garrett on Jul 18, 2016 16:21:15 GMT -8
Clearly we would think both Jews and Christians have weaknesses, and they think we do. Here's why I love our conversations. We think we do too. I learned a lot in your post Garrett because I am really unfamiliar with Judaism. It is easier for me to find the weak points in Christianity simply because that's what I am familiar with. Point being, I hope you keep sharing but I do understand the need to guard the limitations of my perspective as I try to always do. We also talk very generally on here simply because of our own limitations in what we can understand and grapple with. Just another thing to keep in mind. There are a lot of questions spinning in my mind right now. Let me just stop, check, and clarify one if I can. Am I right in my understanding that generally speaking in Jewish minds good deeds bring about salvation? It may seem like a silly question, but heeding Alon's warning and remembering all the Christianized thinking I was drenched in, I just want to check this understanding. Did I offend? garrett |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 18, 2016 18:16:41 GMT -8
Clearly we would think both Jews and Christians have weaknesses, and they think we do. Here's why I love our conversations. We think we do too. I learned a lot in your post Garrett because I am really unfamiliar with Judaism. It is easier for me to find the weak points in Christianity simply because that's what I am familiar with. Point being, I hope you keep sharing but I do understand the need to guard the limitations of my perspective as I try to always do. We also talk very generally on here simply because of our own limitations in what we can understand and grapple with. Just another thing to keep in mind. There are a lot of questions spinning in my mind right now. Let me just stop, check, and clarify one if I can. Am I right in my understanding that generally speaking in Jewish minds good deeds bring about salvation? It may seem like a silly question, but heeding Alon's warning and remembering all the Christianized thinking I was drenched in, I just want to check this understanding. Did I offend? garrett Nope, not at all. I appreciate your perspective. |
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. The Jews say the seal of God is the truth. The truth of HaShem is what we as Meshiachim strive for always.
. It is their personal decision though...who is his support system?
Maybe he thought we would get to be a bit too much. I could see that. We are pretty needy, but it would be nice see how far our thoughts go and learn more from there. 
). 
