Emet- truth

[garrett]

Hi Everyone, sorry I've dropped off the face of the earth for so long. Just busy and distracted with work and life. Hope you are all well. Anyways, I didn't have a chance to follow up on this topic from last month. As usual, I'm a bit tired but if I don't write something now I never will. Hopefully it will come across the way I intend.....I think it's an important topic, ultimately because it deals with a false Messiah - which is what Yeshua warned his disciples to avoid. Are we not his disciples?  I think I'll try writing in Italics to emphasize my responses.

Again, my responses and comments are in italics, with some more follow-up at the bottom let me know if something doesn't make sense and I'll try to clarify...thanks - garrett

Jul 17, 2016 22:01:36 GMT -8 alon said:

Garrett, pretty thought provoking:

Elizabeth - I believe that you are correct when you say many are committing idolatry in their understanding of Messiah based on their own beliefs. From the things I read, even scouring through Chabad.org, very few scriptural references are given to create a base from which to believe in the coming Messiah and the Messianic Era, except that it will be fantastic, peaceful and that we'll understand everything so much more clearly (, Talmud, etc). But I never hear much about worship, blessing G-d for what He is. So yeah, some walk a fine line there...

People are people. Christians walk that same line in many ways, with their crosses and statues and Asher Poles and other ornamentation. Their preaching of the "God of the Old Testament vs. the God of the New" ... and on it goes. We as Meshiachim need to guard against this ourselves, as it is an easy pit to fall into.

^{_{The line that christians walk isn't anything that I'm addressing. I'm just touching on what I've found to be a lack of supporting scripture regarding the coming Moshiach. He almost appears as someone (still a person) who is worshipped. That's the idolatry I'm talking about. This is strictly Jewish Moshiach business here...}}

My theory as to why the majority of the world's Jews are secular is because Judaism is often pretty impersonal, no matter how many feel good articles are written about HaShem or about performing mitzvot. It just doesn't touch us lowly people enough to actually give a glimpse of hope. Without hope we lose purpose.

Hmmm, I might have to disagree there. Maybe with some, but to most Jews Hashem is much more personal than 'Jesus' is to almost any Christians; who by the way have their own brand of feel good doctrines and articles. Again, we need to use their mistakes as a warning.

Again, what I'm addressing is not a counter to anything christianity based. We cannot get inside the minds of people and know if Hashem is more personal to Jews than He is to "christians." But based on my experience, Hashem, though highly loved and worshipped, can seem less personal than the "coming Moshiach" that is expressed in conversation. The anticipation is really something. How could anyone calculate if Jews have a more personal relationship with Hashem compared to christians with "Jesus?" ....I don't think we should wander into semantics on something like this. It's not necessary.

And a lot of emphasis is placed on good deeds, good deeds, good deeds. Good deeds are wonderful but to what end when we deny the Creator who has defined what is "good" and what is evil? This is where physical, national and earthly redemption break down. This is where spiritual needs must be met and made manifest (finally) because, truly, what we all really want is rescue from death. Then we can glorify G-d. We were made for His glory.

Tzedikah, or charity is an important part of Jewish life. It is almost (if not outright) regarded as a right of the poor to receive tzedikah; and even they must give to those less fortunate. It is an obligation on everyone. Prayers said in the High Holidays tell us God has inscribed judgment against all who've sinned, but teshuvah (repentance), tefilah (prayer) and tzedakah can reverse the judgement.

We don't believe a good deed cancels a bad one, but we do believe forgiveness comes with repentence. And there are scriptural basis for tzedikah:

Maybe I'm missing something but I think you may have missed my intended point. I don't deny the requirement of performing mitzvot and the acts of tzedakah - at all. My contention is that it amounts to nothing when those who are given the oracles of G-d miss the literal fulfillment of His Words and prophecies.  A poor person's stomach is fed, yes! And the one who feeds the person - what is the future of his soul? Yeshua is clear about those who hear of Him and deny Him. You're right - a good deed does not cancel out a bad one. When Yeshua is asked what is required for eternal life He replies, "believe in me." and He also says that one who denies Him, He will also deny. Yeshua's time on earth is where the rubber hit the road - and it's still affecting us to this day. Nothing stirs more controversy than this "Jewish" G-d. He is constantly substantiated.

Leviticus 19:9-10 ion (ESV) “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 26:12 (ESV) “When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled,

Jews do tend to look at all writings of their people as profitable for understanding and instruction, including the B'rith Chadashah (New Testament). Some hold Talmudic writings as more authoritative than scripture, but by no means all of them. One thing that fuels this view however is much of the Gemara was written during periods of severe persecution; and there was a lot of anger and mistrust of Christianity engendered in those writings. With over 2000 yrs of persecution still fresh in their minds (the Jews study history) is it any wonder so many hold fast to these writings? And to be fair, Christian writings during most of this period have shown as much or more hatred and ill will to both Judaism and our own predecessors the Nots'rim.

I believe that what you wrote above is true. Many in haredim world and orthodox world DO hold Talmud on the same level authoritatively as Tanakh though. To deny or disregard commentary in the Gemarah is not acceptable, period. The Mishna is tons of core text information. And the Gemarah is all the commentary and analyzation about the Mishna. This gives us the Talmud. These fervent men gave all this time and energy to interpret the oracles of G-d and what every possible thing means. Every possible interpretation of a word, a passage, a story, a letter, etc. in order to understand more and more about G-d. It's fantastic! But they are still men. Not G-d. G-d's word is not equal to the men who interpret it.

I don't think we can give a definitive answer for why so many Jews are secular Jews any more than we can say why so many Christians are apostate or why so many Meshiachim fall away. For some Jews the fences their sect requires them to keep are just too much. For others, they think their good works will get them into heaven. Still others believe in the national salvation of their people so strongly they think God will just give a blanket pardon. And probably a thousand more reasons I've never heard. But again, people are people and I'm sure we can all relate; and it almost goes without saying we need to guard against anything that robs our trust in or hinders our walk with a personal God.

I can give an answer why so many Jews are secular Jews! G-d said this:

Hosea 4:16 "For Israel is stubborn

                        Like a stubborn calf;

                        Now the L-rd will let them forage

                        Like a lamb in open country.

Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge

                     Because you have rejected knowledge;

                     I will also reject you from being priest for Me;

                     Because you have forgotten the law of your G-d;

                     I also will forget your children.

Then look at G-d's gracious follow-through in Hosea 14: 1-9:

                    O Israel, return to the L-rd your G-d,

                    For you have stumbled because of your iniquity;

                    Take words with you

                    And return to the L-rd.

                    Say to Him,

                    "Take away all iniquity;

                     Receive us graciously,

                    For we will offer the sacrifices of our lips.

                    Assyria shall not save us,

                    We will not ride on horses,

                    Nor will we say anymore to the work of our hands,

                    "you are our gods."

                     For in You the fatherless finds mercy."

I will heal their backsliding. I will love them freely, for my anger has turned away from him. I will be like the dew to Israel He shall grow like the lily, and lengthen his roots like Lebanon. His branches shall spread; his beauty shall be like an olive tree and his fragrance like Lebanon. Those who dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall be revived like grain, and grow like a vine. Their scent shall be like the wine of Lebanon. "Ephraim shall say, 'what have I to do anymore with idols?' I have heard and observed him. I am like a green cypress tree; your fruit is found in me." Who is wise? Let him understand these things. Who is prudent? Let him know them. For the ways of the L-rd are right; the righteous walk in them, but transgressors stumble in them.

Dan C

Just some more thoughts:

The passages from Hosea seem applicable because they preceded the destruction of the first temple. Then Yeshua predicted the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash, again, happening 40 years later. The real question throughout biblical history is, "What was the reason for Israel being taken into captivity, dispersed and her Temple being destroyed? We know it is because of  insane disbelief, disobedience, forsaking G-d's , pride, killing it's own prophets. For heaven's sake, the destruction of the 2nd Beis Hamikdash was disbelief in the Anointed One. All the other sins were firmly established. In G-d's biblical history everything happens for a reason. They are very clear reasons. Otherwise, we would have a forum on a lot of conjecture and speculation. Imitating the sages (humbly) like Rashi or Rambam, we spend our life searching for answers and we actually find many of them.

Hosea 9:17 says: "My G-d will cast them away, because they did not obey Him; and they shall be wanderers among the nations." 

Very clear.

Regarding straight Judaism minus Yeshua - I believe a sense or a glimpse of hope fizzled out when Yeshua the Messiah was rejected by the nation. Regardless of this, G-d's Abrahamic covenant still continues. I think pre-Messianic Judaism (to the degree that it existed) held that glimpse of hope. This hope was forfeited after the rejection of Yeshua and the consequent destruction of the temple.

Yeshua recited to His schlichim (regarding other people) Mattatias 13:

Because seeing they do not see,
And hearing they do not hear nor do they understand.

And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

You will keep on hearing but will never understand;
You will keep looking, but will never see.
For the hearing of this people has become dull,
their ears can barely hear, and they have shut their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts.
They they would turn back, and I would heal them.



On tzedakah - I've have been at the table with others who discuss tzedaka and I've seen insecurity and heard insecurity in the level of salvation it will bring to him or her. This has been my experience.

Let me wrap this up on why I think this is more than just "people are people." People are people, that's true, but this isn't a light topic. This is about a false messiah. This is about false doctrine. This is about false teaching. These are things that Yeshua was very clear about with His disciples. And His warning was transmitted right to us through the written records of his teachings. Anything as false as this "moshiach" deserves our attention. I place this moshiach right on the same playing field of respect as I do the Pope in terms of holiness. I can speak comfortably with you guys, because many of us are on the same page. And I'm developing a few more relationships with orthodox jews (not by any effort of my own) and it's starting to hit home. We can go back and forth on discussions and peripheral details. But who's willing to take the proverbial bullet in the head as to whether Yeshua is the only Moshiach (and that anything else is heresy?)..... I'll take it down a bit.

Yeshua said (in Mattatias 24:4-5):

Be careful that no one leads you astray! For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Messiah," and will lead many astray.

(24:9) Yeshua says:

Then they will hand you over to persecution and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of My name. And then many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one other. Many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

(24:23) Yeshua says:

Then if anyone says to you, "Look, here's the messiah, or "There He is," do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and show great signs and wonders so as to lead astray, if possible, even the CHOSEN. See, I have told you beforehand.


I realize everyone may have forgotten about this topic since it was started up a month or so ago. I had planned on responding much sooner, when my thoughts were more fresh. I hope this comes across as understandable. Nothing here is intended to be rough or disrespectful. But I need to say again, those who fall into paganism or idolatry don't get a pass on this forum. G-d's Chosen don't get a pass for belief in something that is untrue and doctrinally weak at best. On the contrary, this untrue belief is anti-Yeshua.

Maybe I can get a "pass" to say these things because it's in my blood? I don't know. But there IS a nation that is supposed to be a nation of priests and a light unto the world.


Maybe I'll drag everyone kicking and screaming one day....when I figure out how to do that.

G-d bless you guys - garrett

[Elizabeth]

I can see where the divinity of Yeshua is a valid concern in the Jewish critique of us. We were taught it, raised to accept it, and now we believe it; but why? I don't know about you guys, but If I consider why I believe it, it is because of the relationship I have with G-d.

I can't personally point to scriptural references at this point. I believe just because I know G-d and I know I am with Him. I know how G-d is acting in my life. I just get it because I see it in my life, but where is it in scripture?  I am studying more with an eye out for more scriptural understanding and basis for this belief, but I can understand the issue.

That being said, I can't help but feel we will hit a wall because it all starts with faith in how much G-d loves you and how much He wants to be with you. We can't teach, defend, or prove that. That's something we have to show. There's the purpose for our good deeds. We aren't acting to achieve anything but to love people.

I do think at least on a logical level, Jewish people understand how much G-d loves and wants to be with them. But we can't "teach" that on a spiritual level. I think the best we have is to try and show that through the Spirit of Yeshua within ourselves.  G-d can do the convincing without us so just trying to break things down for myself to start working toward the goal. With more scriptural study and awareness I hope to have more to go on eventually.

[Elizabeth]

Ok, let's start with the most obvious one to me. What is the traditional Jewish understanding of Isaiah 9 generally, but 9:6 specifically? 

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty G-d, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Is the Hebrew being accurately translated? I guess it's a bit simplistic, and a very "Christian" place to start. However, that's where I am at and based on what little I know, assuming it's accurately translated, Jewish people who have a problem with Yeshua being called G-d should also have a problem with this verse from their own scripture.

[alon]

Aug 15, 2016 17:11:54 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Ok, let's start with the most obvious one to me. What is the traditional Jewish understanding of Isaiah 9 generally, but 9:6 specifically? 

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty G-d, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Is the Hebrew being accurately translated? I guess it's a bit simplistic, and a very "Christian" place to start. However, that's where I am at and based on what little I know, assuming it's accurately translated, Jewish people who have a problem with Yeshua being called G-d should also have a problem with this verse from their own scripture.

Not everything the Christians say is wrong.

It'd be interesting to know what different sects believe about this. However verses 1-7 clearly describe a Messianic era.

Isaiah 9:1(ESV) But there will be no gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. [Or of the Gentiles]

This and other prophesies of joy and a national salvation have not yet happened, so most would say Yeshua could not have been HaMoshiach.

Isaiah 9:6(ESV)  For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called [Or is called]
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This will be some of the names for Messiah. Semitic people of the time had names which reflected the character of Hashem (or whatever god they worshiped). Yeshayahu (Isaiah) for example means "The Lord Saves." So Jews see no problem with a man being called any of these things; especially Messiah. They argue this does not attribute divinity to hamoshiach; a thing which they regard as Christian (which they believe we are). And this despite the fact that the early and now later sects of the Nots'rim (us) did and do believe in the complete and eternal deity of Yeshua. This is a Jewish movement. All us ex-Gentiles have done is grab the hem of their coat!

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for the explanation Alon. I will keep asking things like this just for my own understanding. It is really helpful for me.

Why do Jews think G-d created? Isn't the whole idea of G-d being with us just cause He wants to? Surely we're not that far removed to at least connect on that.

They are missing so much revelation that it's hard to find a place to start to make sense of it from their viewpoint. Does it all stop with Messiah's reign on earth and an earthly Temple to House G-d in their minds? Just asking cause that simply doesn't get us close enough to where we started for G-d to be done, and it's much more demeaning of G-d than what we are saying if you really think about it.

[garrett]

Aug 15, 2016 7:54:06 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

I can see where the divinity of Yeshua is a valid concern in the Jewish critique of us. We were taught it, raised to accept it, and now we believe it; but why? I don't know about you guys, but If I consider why I believe it, it is because of the relationship I have with G-d.

I can't personally point to scriptural references at this point. I believe just because I know G-d and I know I am with Him. I know how G-d is acting in my life. I just get it because I see it in my life, but where is it in scripture?  I am studying more with an eye out for more scriptural understanding and basis for this belief, but I can understand the issue.

That being said, I can't help but feel we will hit a wall because it all starts with faith in how much G-d loves you and how much He wants to be with you. We can't teach, defend, or prove that. That's something we have to show. There's the purpose for our good deeds. We aren't acting to achieve anything but to love people.

I do think at least on a logical level, Jewish people understand how much G-d loves and wants to be with them. But we can't "teach" that on a spiritual level. I think the best we have is to try and show that through the Spirit of Yeshua within ourselves.  G-d can do the convincing without us so just trying to break things down for myself to start working toward the goal. With more scriptural study and awareness I hope to have more to go on eventually.

When you asked, "why?" I think it's because the Notsrim had some of their core precepts taken from them.....and then inserted into ancient christianity. Like Alon mentioned, some of the things christians believe/say isn't wrong.

A relationship with G-d, yes that is at the nucleus of our belief. I think of the relationship with Him as a continuous pursuit. But He doesn't leave us to the resignation of being uneducated and uninformed, considering prophecy that was so specific. As I mentioned previously, I've never known why Yeshua's prophecy of the destruction of the 2nd Temple didn't raise with Everyone. Has anyone in the orthodox world given this consideration? Proverbs tells us to "study to show thyself approved." I think that means we can come up with some very likely conclusions about many things.

I think you're right that the purpose of our good deeds is best expressed in love towards others. When I think of this in relation to other jews I think of it as one of the highest mitzvot. To carry out these things is to be consistent with .

To take the position that disregards Yeshua as moshiach requires much more trust and belief than I could muster considering such a large absence of scriptural support.

Our bodies are vessels for our spirit. Who I am is my spirit - not the carbon filled frame of flesh, bones and organs. When I die, my spirit departs from my body and lives on. Yeshua is spirit that inhabited a vessel, just as Hashem inhabited the ark - a box. To my knowledge, there aren't any biblical contradictions to this being a deal breaker. If there are, I'd love to hear about them so that I could get a better understanding about what I "think I believe."

Just some ideas.

Hope you're well - garrett

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, Yeshua's prophecy off the destruction of the second temple is a good point. I also don't know how Judaism gets around the scriptural understanding that He had to come before its destruction, and I wonder what learned people at that time understood His prophecy to mean regarding His identity, if anything........

Of course things seem obvious to us, that's one of the reasons I am so curious the alternate understanding and rational against ours