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Post by chrisg on Mar 21, 2016 10:40:43 GMT -8
And there might well be more questions later Being new to all this and living in the UK, I have some questions that haven't altogether been answered by the other threads here. Discussing Sabbath with my husband (and no, he is not ready for Sabbath observance yet) he asked 'how can we know that what we call 'Satruday' is actually the real Sabbath?' With all the changes in the calendar, he does have a point. I tried to say that Saturday is the day we call the seventh day and it was the seventh day God blessed, so we would be honouring Him by keeping Saturday, but he was not receptive at all. Can I start Sabbath at 6pm? Rather than waiting till sunset, which varies wildly in the UK from 4pm to 10pm, depending on the season. There is no suitable congregation near to me; is it all right to keep Sabbath alone? How is it going to be best to keep it? There is a lot of ritual involved in the Jewish Sabbath keeping that seems not to apply to UK Christians in the 21st century. I do not want to try to copy the Jewish way of doing things, other than where they are biblical. [Edited to add: what I mean by this is I don't want to somehow 'pretend' to be Jewish]. What I had in mind was - 1. a special meal on Friday evening, possibly with candles. My husband would find this special, so I can do this without upsetting him. 2. spending the day on Saturday doing things like reading/studying my Bible and maybe doing family activities such as going for a hike with my husband (something we both enjoy and in God's natural world). 3. if I find a suitable congregation, attending when I can (depending on Husband's wishes for the day). Would this be acceptable? Recently I have been attending an auction on Saturdays (not every Saturday, but often fortnightly). I presume this would now be a no-no? (I think I know the answer to this already, but could do with some perspective other than my own). Would it be acceptable to 'cook' a meal using a slow cooker, which would be on a timer anyway, provided the food was prepared before Sabbath started.? Quite often anyway, we have enough left from Friday to eat on Saturday, so it would just need to be heated through - is that also acceptable? Is keeping Sabbath somewhat secretly okay, given the circumstances? I attend a Sunday church. We 'break bread' (ie hold communion) every Sunday. Can I still continue to do this? The service is very simple and done in all sincerity - ie they believe they are doing right having communion weekly. The men pray, or read something from the Bible, or announce a hymn for us to sing. Then we thank God for the bread and Christ's broken body; followed by similar for the cup, which is a single cup we pass round. All this is followed by a message (we are studying John's gospel at the moment) where a speaker from the congregation explains the passage to us. After that, we have a time of informal fellowship over snacks and coffee. I do enjoy going and I do enjoy the message - if I don't go I won't be getting any teaching from the Bible, which I feel is important for growing in the Lord. Live podcasts of Sabbath services seem to be streamed from the USA, which makes them in the middle of the night for me, so that is not really an option! There may be other things I have not thought of right now, but that will do to be going on with  |
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Post by jimmie on Mar 21, 2016 12:19:05 GMT -8
If we lost the day in which to honor God, he would remind us as he did with the manna in the wilderness. Israel had no idea when the Sabbath was so God reset the clock, so to speak. No change in the calendar, that I am aware of, has deleted or added days of the weak.
For example, in the case of the few countries that adopted the reformed calendar on the date proposed by Gregory XIII for the calendar's adoption, Friday, 15 October 1582, the preceding date was Thursday, 4 October 1582 (Julian calendar).
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Post by chrisg on Mar 21, 2016 15:10:03 GMT -8
For example, in the case of the few countries that adopted the reformed calendar on the date proposed by Gregory XIII for the calendar's adoption, Friday, 15 October 1582, the preceding date was Thursday, 4 October 1582 (Julian calendar). Thank you; that's what I thought too. While the date changed oddly, I didn't think the day had also changed. |
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Post by alon on Mar 21, 2016 18:22:22 GMT -8
... 'how can we know that what we call 'Satruday' is actually the real Sabbath?' With all the changes in the calendar, he does have a point. I tried to say that Saturday is the day we call the seventh day and it was the seventh day God blessed, so we would be honouring Him by keeping Saturday, but he was not receptive at all.
The Jews have kept their calendar since the time of the exodus. So we can know with certainty that the Fri eve to Sat eve Shabbat is the real deal. Even in the Diaspora they instituted the Hillel Calendar so all would know when to keep the weekly and annual Sabbaths. It is still in use today.
No, God set the day as sundown to sundown; and He set Shabbat as the seventh day. Only in extreme circumstance (like in extreme northern climes) should this be tampered with. It does point up one thing though- it is a sects own Rabbis who make halacha- rulings on how we obey  . And this is the main reason; different locations have different circumstances.
Absolutely! You should keep it alone if that is all you have. I generally travel to meet on Fri evening. Not really synagogue, since we’ve never had enough for a minion. Then I spend the day Sat studying and resting. I make no purchases and avoid any outside entanglements. Another place our Rabbis make halacha- I live in a rural area and we area, so if no one drove there'd be no meetings or even a parent synagogue.
Yes, since it meets the biblical requirements. It is a day to set aside all creative activities and concentrate on the Creator. And as I said, don’t think you have to do anyone’s rituals. Many Jewish sects disagree on those anyhow. You may want to add some later, but again I can’t stress enough, move into all this slowly so you don’t become frustrated and burnt out.
I understand your not wanting to just copy Judaism. That is a misconception that is what Messianics do anyhow. But I didn’t want to appear to be "playing Jew" when I first started either. I wondered if maybe they were right and I should just follow the Noachide laws and not be fully observant. However God specified one law for everyone. He also said we were grafted into the Jewish rootstalk. Even Christians believe that- their problem is they think this means they have replaced the Jews as the Chosen People. Not so. It means we are joined to that people when we accept Yeshua and as long as we walk with Him. (Rom 11). Also read the write-up on last weeks haftarah:
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3827/haftara-par-sha-vayikra-Isaiah
Num 15:16 (KJV) One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Going to church is a tricky subject. I myself go to the Assemblies church where my wife goes, mostly to be with her but also I get a lot from the preaching there. The trick is you have to use a LOT of discernment when in a place where it is inevitable you will get false teaching. Adventists and other Sabbath keeping groups are also full of false doctrine. So just be aware. You may also find that the more you get into the truth, the more people there, even good friends, may pull away. I try to respect them and remember it is their church, their doctrine, and I knew that when I went. So I will answer questions, but I don’t proselytize or subvert their leadership. Still there is a division there, and even old friends shun me. But, to put it in old time AoG terms- “It’s all glory!”
Don’t you just hate it when that happens?  Yeah, buying and selling is pretty much a no-no. It is either work for gain or creative work, or both. Emphasis on the “work” part. Even though you enjoy it and it just makes you feel good when you make a good score … God didn’t say “Remember the Sabbath Day and keep on feelin’ good!” It is to be set apart, kept holy. It is to honor the Creator, not to be creative in your bidding and buying.
The rule in was not to kindle a fire. Cooking is also creative work. Leftovers are fine, but warming them up is questionable. Leaving food in a slow cooker is like maintaining a fire already lit, and so would appear to me to be ok as long as it all was in and the cooker on before sundown Friday.
Nothing wrong with doing that. However you’ll find that if you don’t tell people you are keeping Shabbat and set definite boundaries, they will always be after you to do things you shouldn’t. Sooner or later they’ll figure out something is different.
Communion is a complex issue. I do not participate any more, even though if done correctly I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But first off, breaking bread and drinking wine, especially in a religious service, implies a covenant relationship. That can be problematic if you think some of their foundational doctrines are wrong. There is also the issue of their mixing leaven with wine or juice, both of which are Biblically considered to be acceptable substitutes for blood. Most churches when they do communion even say:
1Co 11:25 (KJV) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
There is also this to consider:
Exo 23:18 (KJV) Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.
Almost every church I have been in uses unsalted crackers and breaks them up, then eats them as a representation of the body of Christ. But if you read the label one of the listed ingredients is leavening agents. I have also seen churches use loaves of bread for communion! So right there they are in violation of .
There is a lot written on this throughout the archives here, and we are happy to answer questions. So you'll learn more as you go along. Just go at your own pace, and don't be in a hurry to do it all "right" at once. I've been doing this for a few years now (over three actually in observant MJ, and more in Hebrew Roots and searching for ToMJ), and I still have a lot to learn.
Dan C
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Post by chrisg on Mar 22, 2016 15:29:33 GMT -8
Num 15:16 (KJV) One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Going to church is a tricky subject. I myself go to the Assemblies church where my wife goes, mostly to be with her but also I get a lot from the preaching there. The trick is you have to use a LOT of discernment when in a place where it is inevitable you will get false teaching. Adventists and other Sabbath keeping groups are also full of false doctrine. So just be aware. You may also find that the more you get into the truth, the more people there, even good friends, may pull away. I try to respect them and remember it is their church, their doctrine, and I knew that when I went. So I will answer questions, but I don’t proselytize or subvert their leadership. Still there is a division there, and even old friends shun me. But, to put it in old time AoG terms- “It’s all glory!”
I had that issue when I started attending, as I was Mennonite and they are not. I believe in the possibility of losing salvation through sinning; they do not. They are 'dispensational'; I am not. And so on. I already therefore had different ideas, so not proselytising won't be too hard, as I already have to keep quiet on certain things I know will offend them. That is not to say I say absolutely nothing, but I don't press my point of view. [/p]
Communion is a complex issue. I do not participate any more, even though if done correctly I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But first off, breaking bread and drinking wine, especially in a religious service, implies a covenant relationship. That can be problematic if you think some of their foundational doctrines are wrong. There is also the issue of their mixing leaven with wine or juice, both of which are Biblically considered to be acceptable substitutes for blood.
[/quote] I have always taken communion because I believe I am in a covenant relationship. Once again, I see I am having to learn things I had never considered before. [/font]I don't understand that one - is there something wrong with reading or quoting those words? Isn't that what Jesus said? [/font]That is something I had never noticed before - definitely food for thought. We use standard bread at ours! But then they tell me that there are two words for 'bread' and Jesus could have used the one for unleavened bread had He intended that to be used, but He didn't; He just used the ordinary word for ordinary bread. I have always had an issue with using leavened bread, but have gone along with it in the absence of anything else and the explanation they gave me when I questioned it. Actually, we don't even use gluten free bread and there is at least one person in the congregation who is gluten intolerant (the wife of one of our elders). I could try baking some and then offer to make it for them  [/p]
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Post by alon on Mar 22, 2016 18:10:18 GMT -8
Yes, we are in a covenant relationship with Elohim. However we also enter into covenant relationship with each other; and when the second is in opposition to the first, we lose our relationship with God.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. That should be considered in light of the next:
Clearly the juice or wine used in Christian communion does represent the blood of His sacrifice. So mixing it with any kind of leaven is wrong.
The issue is with the leaven, not the bread. Hopefully this will confirm that your suspicions were valid. God does not punish where you were ignorant, however going forward, you now know better. This is one of those places where people will see you not taking communion with them and take it as an insult, so be ready. If they come to you and ask, it is a good opportunity to share with them. But not everyone will. Many just distance themselves from you, and may go to others behind your back.
My reply to the words used for bread, they don’t know what words were used because the Hebrew originals have been lost or destroyed. There is a growing number of linguists and scholars who say all evidence points to the New Testament having been originally written in Hebrew. So they are working from translations in the first place. Second, they are working from over 5700 different source documents and fragments, very many of which disagree, from which their New Testament was written. I got this from one of my wife’s Moody courses, and asked a couple of pastors about it. They were aware of this, but asked that I didn’t tell people about it because it might destroy their faith.
This points up another huge difference in Christianity and Messianic Judaism. We do not shrink back from such things. Our trust is in the author of the Book; their faith is in the Book. Ours is solid, theirs tends to be more easily destroyed. We look for understanding in all these nagging questions and seemingly destructive facts, trusting that God is always right, we just don’t always see it at first. We believe because we understand; or trust that there is an understanding to be had.
Dan C
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Post by chrisg on Mar 23, 2016 10:37:49 GMT -8
I now have a big issue looming. We break bread every Sunday. I go to church with my husband. Neither he nor my church are receptive to this teaching. We use ordinary leavened bread for our service (my husband is also slightly uncomfortable with the use of leavened bread, but not the extent I am). I know what I ought to do, but I'm not sure I have the strength to go through with it, despite being aware of such verses as 'to him that knoweth to do right and doeth it not, to him it is sin'  |
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Post by alon on Mar 23, 2016 12:40:32 GMT -8
I now have a big issue looming. We break bread every Sunday. I go to church with my husband. Neither he nor my church are receptive to this teaching. We use ordinary leavened bread for our service (my husband is also slightly uncomfortable with the use of leavened bread, but not the extent I am). I know what I ought to do, but I'm not sure I have the strength to go through with it, despite being aware of such verses as 'to him that knoweth to do right and doeth it not, to him it is sin' Breaking bread as part of a meal is not a problem. Doing it as part of communion is.
It is difficult. My advice is to have a serious talk with your husband as soon as possible. Tell him of your concerns. If he is not convinced, then tell him you don't feel comfortable violating a clear commandment, and you prefer not to participate. If you think this will cause a rift in your marriage then I am going out on a limb and say the higher mitzvah is the preservation of your marriage for now. But keep working with him to see the truth, as there will come a point when you need to stop. This is based on the idea that as a family unit, husband and wife, the two of you are coming into the truth at different speeds, but you are both open to the truth. When it ever becomes obvious he is not open to truth, then you should reassess your position and stop participating in communion.
The church where you are going may see your refusal as breaking fellowship. This should not be a concern for you, as they are in the wrong. Your husband may want you to meet with the pastor. Insist that he is there and go in armed with the Word and the truth, and stand firm. Let him make whatever threats or edicts or ultimatums, then answer you cannot be bullied into sin. At that point I'd say you should no longer take communion, even if it means they ask you to leave. Alternatively, he may understand your position and grant you leave not to participate; and that is one problem solved.
I need to say here that I am not a Rabbi, so this is just advice from another fellow believer. Pray about it, and move slowly but steadily, surely into this as with everything. My prayers are with you.
Dan C
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Post by chrisg on Mar 23, 2016 12:55:14 GMT -8
Our breaking bread is indeed communion. I have been putting off having 'that conversation' with my husband - I am moving at a faster pace than he is. Although he has reservations about using leavened bread, I cannot yet see (without much prayer) that he will be happy for me not to take communion. He will likely be annoyed with me if I refuse the bread. [Do I also refuse the wine? Do they come as a 'package'?] I also feel I should speak with the elders before refusing - or should I - I don't really know. Our elders are not like Baptist pastors - we have more than one, they are not paid to be pastors, and they are very open and caring. But they are steeped in brethren tradition and are unlikely to agree to change - which is why I (only half jokingly) suggested I should offer to bake some unleavened bread for them. But they will certainly notice and it is highly likely I will come in for some criticism and accusations of heresy.
I love my church and the members of it, but I am struggling with the idea of continuing to take communion with them.
Thank you for your prayers - they are much appreciated.
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Post by alon on Mar 23, 2016 13:23:45 GMT -8
Our breaking bread is indeed communion. I have been putting off having 'that conversation' with my husband - I am moving at a faster pace than he is. Although he has reservations about using leavened bread, I cannot yet see (without much prayer) that he will be happy for me not to take communion. He will likely be annoyed with me if I refuse the bread. [Do I also refuse the wine? Do they come as a 'package'?] I also feel I should speak with the elders before refusing - or should I - I don't really know. Our elders are not like Baptist pastors - we have more than one, they are not paid to be pastors, and they are very open and caring. But they are steeped in brethren tradition and are unlikely to agree to change - which is why I (only half jokingly) suggested I should offer to bake some unleavened bread for them. But they will certainly notice and it is highly likely I will come in for some criticism and accusations of heresy. I love my church and the members of it, but I am struggling with the idea of continuing to take communion with them. Thank you for your prayers - they are much appreciated. At the point where you decide not to take communion as they do, you should refuse the whole thing. I don't make a big deal in my wife's church when they do it. I just let both the bread (crackers) pass, as well as the juice, and stand quietly while they partake.
You have a tough judgment call to make there concerning how this will effect your marriage and at what point you will take a stand. I can tell you this won't be the last time you'll face such an issue as you move into . As you decide to keep God's laws, observing Shabbat and the feasts and they see you withdrawing from their pagan holidays you will come in for more criticism and even anger from former friends and even your spouse. That's why I say try to move forward with him, not rushing things and creating a riff. The church is irrelevant. They will either accept you or not. But your husband is very important. Until it becomes clear he will not accept my advice (and it is only advice) is to move slowly with him.
I still make concessions for my wife. I tuck my tzitzyot out of sight when with her. I still wear them, but it causes her so much consternation I do that for her. I do not insist on a kosher kitchen, and she is pretty good at reading labels and not serving treif foods. She still tries to get me to break Shabbat once in a while, but she understands when I refuse to do it. Marriage is a partnership, and so we do the best we can with a reluctant spouse.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Mar 23, 2016 13:27:33 GMT -8
By the way, another piece of advice- don't hide any of this from your husband. Show him my advice and the posts here. He needs to know he is not being undermined by us, and that you are willing to be open and above board with him in all this. Invite him to look here any time he wants. Again, your call- but that is what I'd advise.
Dan |
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 23, 2016 14:04:53 GMT -8
You are commanded to submit to your husband. If he makes a big deal over it and it causes marital divide, maybe the best you can do is to take it. Don't let it cause you resentment but remember grace for yourself. Try to pray for your husband's forgiveness when he frustrates you to no end as the biggest sin falls on him as the head of the family causing you to sin I think. (I am basing that on the difference in the value of the Levitical offerings given according to the responsibility of the person offering it and the verse about causing a little one to sin.) I would really try to tell him so in a gentle way for his own sake. It seems he has a relationship with G-d so there is a lot to be said for that. Trust G-d has better timing than you and pray your husband can handle more than you think. I wouldn't do anything potentially perceived as underhanded, sneak in unleavened bread for example. That would damage your witness long-term. If that's the direction you feel pulled in, I think you should ask permission from the elders or have your husband do so if he comes around. Also I would avoid assuming you know your husband's response and then not have the conversation just going along because of your assumption. Been there done that. That would just muddle what is likely an oppirtunity G-d is giving for you both to grow. I truly understand your apprehension, but I really think you need to give him the chance to think and respond for his own sake. Either you will be pleasantly surprised or he will at least consider his choice more thoroughly. Perhaps the best you can do with the situation is focus on not letting fear cause you to commit avoidable sin by not doing what G-d gives you to do. I think you may have more idea of what to do than you realize, but it's just hard to be the person making the waves so to speak. I totally can relate. Unfortunately, in this world, at some point it isn't even a choice for us. Praying for your strength and confidence. There are wonderful things in your future as G-d challenges you and shows you He never lets you down. I have no authority and zero credentials to back up any of what I said. This is just somewhat of a familiar situation for me and I know what G-d is doing with it for me. Most of it is about my husband and me knowing G-d. Maybe it's the same for you. Trying to even out the yoke so you can both move forward and show you why you can trust Him. Also, as I read over this, I realized it sounds a bit bossy. I reworked it, and still, a bit bossy. I have no idea your true situation, so if this advice is bad and unrelated, I am sorry. It hit a chord with me. I can't separate my own experiences from my response. Your situation feels too familiar, but I also feel obligated to share what I know G-d has taught me. |
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Post by chrisg on Mar 24, 2016 2:02:59 GMT -8
Thank you Elizabeth. It didn't come over as bossy at all. In fact, it is very helpful. It is precisely because you do not know my husband or me and our personal situation that makes what you say helpful, as it doesn't have any pre-conceived ideas with it; it comes straight from the Scriptures and your heart.
Thankfully, I would never 'sneak in unleavened bread' - eek, that would certainly make matters worse and it would also be against the idea that we partake of one loaf because we are all of one bread - that is, we are a body together. I cannot and would not supply my own 'communion'.
Today, my husband has to drive around 400 miles to collect something for his work. I am going with him. We often have our best conversations in the car - neither of us is distracted by the computer, the TV or whatever we happen to be doing. However, he is already showing signs of tiring of my 'new ideas' - especially as this would not be the first time I had had such new thoughts. But as I said above, he is also a little uncomfortable with the idea of taking leavened bread, so hopefully we can come to some agreeable compromise and maybe he can talk to the elders, rather than me.
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Post by chrisg on Mar 26, 2016 10:56:58 GMT -8
Having had more than 24 hours to consider this thread, there is something I felt I needed to clarify, as it could have been misunderstood. When I said 'can I observe Sabbath secretly', I did not mean not telling my husband, or close family. I meant celebrating it by just doing so, without announcing the fact to everyone. My husband is aware I want to keep the Sabbath (and I did so today, though it might have been less than satisfactory in many ways), but I have not told people at my church and I do not think I will do so, until someone asks me to do something that will make Sabbath keeping impossible - in which case, I will have to say no, because I keep the Sabbath, separated to God.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 26, 2016 12:20:28 GMT -8
Having had more than 24 hours to consider this thread, there is something I felt I needed to clarify, as it could have been misunderstood. When I said 'can I observe Sabbath secretly', I did not mean not telling my husband, or close family. I meant celebrating it by just doing so, without announcing the fact to everyone. My husband is aware I want to keep the Sabbath (and I did so today, though it might have been less than satisfactory in many ways), but I have not told people at my church and I do not think I will do so, until someone asks me to do something that will make Sabbath keeping impossible - in which case, I will have to say no, because I keep the Sabbath, separated to God. This is basically what I do as my husband is not comfortable to announce it so to speak. Gradually my close friends and family have learned similarly to what you are expecting. My husband is becoming more comfortable as times goes on so hopefully one day we can make a more obvious separation. Praising G-d as just before coming on here and seeing your post I was listening to Rabbi Reul's message at Chavurat HaMashiach. My husband looked at me thoughtfully and said, " you know that sounds like a nice service, but I don't understand why it has to be so long." I told him they say prayers in both Hebrew and English and he seemed to approve. Then, later on he actually sushed the kids so he could hear better. He used to do everything to try to sush the service. Anyway, praise G-d for little miracles. Messianic Judaism and Chavurat HaMashicah got a complement from a really resistant person today who used to run from the word of G-d. Hope! |
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Yeah, buying and selling is pretty much a no-no. It is either work for gain or creative work, or both. Emphasis on the “work” part. Even though you enjoy it and it just makes you feel good when you make a good score … God didn’t say “Remember the Sabbath Day and keep on feelin’ good!” It is to be set apart, kept holy. It is to honor the Creator, not to be creative in your bidding and buying.
[/p]
