Natural Progression?

[garrett]

I have wondered about this whole topic as well. I think there is an attraction to the “ancient looking” or what appears “pure”. As is the case, looks are everything to the naïve person when it comes to Judaism.

I hope I don’t go off the deep end. I apologize if it comes across as such (I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone who would ever happen to read this):

Our nation is comprised of several generations that weren’t even raised by two parents in the home. And even if they did, the affluence and availability of thing to please the senses has produced masses of people who want just that – to have their senses pleased. We want emotional experiences in our “religious” life, our work life, while shopping, dining out, ad nauseum. People only know how to think with their feelings – not their minds. It’s difficult to live contrary to this unreal way of thinking and living (unless you practice)

I truly wonder about those who are involved in Messianic Judaism then convert to Orthodox Judaism – minus Yeshua. I’d be interested in knowing the attrition rate. The frightening and embarrassing question would be, “What do I do when I REALIZE that my religion eliminated the G-d who takes away my sin and the plague of guilt?” If that were me I would feel and even ashamed. How hard it is to walk away from something you’ve invested so much energy into (the wrong thing)? What do you do when you realize you made a mistake and want OUT of Orthodox Judaism or Chasidism?

There were times in the past when little temptations about orthodox Judaism crept into my mind but I cannot shake the knowledge and truth of what I know. There is a 900 pound gorilla in the room (if you will) and it is the Messiah (respectfully). No other “Moshiach to come” can possibly spread the news of the G-d of Israel around the world more than Yeshua has done. There is no mere man that can do this.

Not going to churches and not being a convert to rabbinical Judaism can be a lonely road. I believe the biggest hang up is this: belief in the Messiah puts you in a position to be mocked. The Messiah brings division in certain places. And dealing with the reality (or the thought) of Him is much more difficult than going to Synagogue, reading or donning a Kippah each day – but not for the person who realizes that he or she has nothing to lose.

The benefits and “attractiveness” of the life of the Orthodox Jews (that I’ve known) are the lifestyle, structure, community, morality, family, the High Holy Days and, of course, the Sabbath. But I would die if the Messiah were taken out of the equation.

I’ll take off the gloves: In light of persecution for 2000 years, millions of observant Hebrews can be wrong about ONE thing – and they are – they are wrong about who the Messiah is. Eliminate the disgusting history with the church, pogroms, expulsions and the Shoah and it still doesn’t change one thing about the One True G-d: Yeshua.

To move into Orthodox Judaism, without the Messiah, is to deny the very acts of G-d and the prophecies. And it’s my opinion that it’s intellectually lazy. The way I see it, Orthodox Judaism has backed itself into a corner – everything can be explained away with just enough info (to confuse you) and just little enough conviction about a scripture that can be "interpreted" 20 ways. There IS certainty in the scriptures! This leads to good knowledge and good decision making.

After everything is said, I feel bad for those who (like me, in the past) have a crisis or turn their back on the truth of G-d, especially after being given information. Wow, who wants to be around when the Accountability Wagon rolls into town?

[Elizabeth]

People who struggle but find their way often make true disciples and great teachers. The apostles denied him and abandoned him as well. Hopefully, they find their way back and are all the stronger for it. Hopefully they come back and make great teachers.

If they don't, then G-d has preserved and protected our little steadfast bunch from further division and confusion.

[alon]

Jan 7, 2015 17:10:08 GMT -8 garrett said:

... I think there is an attraction to the “ancient looking” or what appears “pure”. As is the case, looks are everything to the naïve person when it comes to Judaism.

True about most things. In witchcraft for example, "ancient wisdom" is best. It's just in our nature. And what looks pure may be just as deadly as witchcraft.

Exo 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Our nation is comprised of several generations that weren’t even raised by two parents in the home. And even if they did, the affluence and availability of thing to please the senses has produced masses of people who want just that – to have their senses pleased. We want emotional experiences in our “religious” life, our work life, while shopping, dining out, ad nauseum. People only know how to think with their feelings – not their minds. It’s difficult to live contrary to this unreal way of thinking and living (unless you practice)

All too true.

I truly wonder about those who are involved in Messianic Judaism then convert to Orthodox Judaism – minus Yeshua. I’d be interested in knowing the attrition rate. The frightening and embarrassing question would be, “What do I do when I REALIZE that my religion eliminated the G-d who takes away my sin and the plague of guilt?” If that were me I would feel and even ashamed. How hard it is to walk away from something you’ve invested so much energy into (the wrong thing)? What do you do when you realize you made a mistake and want OUT of Orthodox Judaism or Chasidism?

I don't know the national stats, but in our synagogue it is about 1/3rd. This includes those who go into Chasidism (very rare), those who fall back into Christianity or HR, those who fall away, and those who are asked to leave. But still we are growing! Baruch HaShem!

Most who go on to Chadism, or even just Judaism are at that point trying to earn salvation by their piousness and works. And as I said earlier, when they want out of that they tend to just fall away into a worst state than before they were saved.

Luk 11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Not going to churches and not being a convert to rabbinical Judaism can be a lonely road. I believe the biggest hang up is this: belief in the Messiah puts you in a position to be mocked. The Messiah brings division in certain places. And dealing with the reality (or the thought) of Him is much more difficult than going to Synagogue, reading or donning a Kippah each day – but not for the person who realizes that he or she has nothing to lose.

The hardest part for me was the isolation, and trying to sort out the truth from the rest (make that the majority) of what is on the net. I could take the jibes and the knives in the back. But not having that community with which to fellowship and the constant hunger for truth was a killer. I thank God I found the synagogue here when I did. Rav S. says that Judaism is not a solo sport. Jews are all about community. That is what makes this forum so important is it is a place for people like yourself who are isolated to come and find some sense of community.

The benefits and “attractiveness” of the life of the Orthodox Jews (that I’ve known) are the lifestyle, structure, community, morality, family, the High Holy Days and, of course, the Sabbath. But I would die if the Messiah were taken out of the equation.

If you can fellowship with a Jewish congregation, that is the next best thing to having a Messianic congregation to fellowship with. And if they invite you into their homes for Shabbat or other occasions, that is a true blessing! They have, after all, been practicing this beautiful religion for millennia now.

I’ll take off the gloves: In light of persecution for 2000 years, millions of observant Hebrews can be wrong about ONE thing – and they are – they are wrong about who the Messiah is. Eliminate the disgusting history with the church, pogroms, expulsions and the Shoah and it still doesn’t change one thing about the One True G-d: Yeshua.

All very true, however it does cloud their perception of Yeshua.

To move into Orthodox Judaism, without the Messiah, is to deny the very acts of G-d and the prophecies. And it’s my opinion that it’s intellectually lazy. The way I see it, Orthodox Judaism has backed itself into a corner – everything can be explained away with just enough info (to confuse you) and just little enough conviction about a scripture that can be "interpreted" 20 ways. There IS certainty in the scriptures! This leads to good knowledge and good decision making.

I wouldn't call the Jews intellectually lazy, as they've produced a disproportionate amount of the world's geniuses and deep thinkers. LOL, I'd be downright afeared to make that claim to their face! But men have a knack for rationalizing their beliefs, first coming to their conclusions then making the facts support those. In this respect the only difference in the Jew and the Gentile is they (being by and large smarter) are better at it! And yes we all tend to back ourselves into a corner with that kind of thinking. Most of us did this while in mainC, and it is only by the grace of God we were able to confront our error and come out of the church. Add to that it is an abundance of grace that keeps us from going off the deep end even here. So I'd caution that we need to approach this in all humility before God and all conviction before men; knowing where we stand and what we believe and why; and being ready to defend our faith in season and out (2 Tim 4:2); and we should do this as much to stand firm in our own minds as to be able to convince others, because there are some people out there on both sides of the aisle that will tell you the sky is red and make many men believe it!

After everything is said, I feel bad for those who (like me, in the past) have a crisis or turn their back on the truth of G-d, especially after being given information. Wow, who wants to be around when the Accountability Wagon rolls into town?

I hear that! Again, there but for the grace of God go you or I.

Dan C

[garrett]

Jan 8, 2015 2:53:42 GMT -8 alon said:

I wouldn't call the Jews intellectually lazy, as they've produced a disproportionate amount of the world's geniuses and deep thinkers. LOL, I'd be downright afeared to make that claim to their face! But men have a knack for rationalizing their beliefs, first coming to their conclusions then making the facts support those. In this respect the only difference in the Jew and the Gentile is they (being by and large smarter) are better at it! And yes we all tend to back ourselves into a corner with that kind of thinking. Most of us did this while in mainC, and it is only by the grace of God we were able to confront our error and come out of the church. Add to that it is an abundance of grace that keeps us from going off the deep end even here. So I'd caution that we need to approach this in all humility before God and all conviction before men; knowing where we stand and what we believe and why; and being ready to defend our faith in season and out (2 Tim 4:2); and we should do this as much to stand firm in our own minds as to be able to convince others, because there are some people out there on both sides of the aisle that will tell you the sky is red and make many men believe it!

Alon - Just an FYI, I wasn't just blanketing Jewish people as being intellectually lazy (otherwise I condemn myself) but in terms of the acts of G-d and the prophecies fulfilled, I still find the mental block (and laziness) in so many places. As for a bunch of people being smart for such a disproportionate group compared to the rest of the world...I don't know. I've met lots of brilliant people from completely different backgrounds. I'm no smarter than the average bear!

I've had the chance to read anti-missionary and anti-Yeshua literature over time, and the arguments against what I believe are so bad, so "college freshman", and taken out of context. They are literally written as though the authors have not done any honest research. The past 2000 years of persecution would DEFINITELY cloud the perception of a LOT of people but it doesn't change the facts surrounding who Yeshua is and the religious faith surrounding him. Does that make sense?

In evil (and short) times such as these I think it's necessary to say it. The future of people's souls is important.

So, when I hear stories of people leaving the true faith....some of this is what comes to my mind and it doesn't go away.

I hope that makes sense - take care.

[garrett]

I wouldn't call the Jews intellectually lazy, as they've produced a disproportionate amount of the world's geniuses and deep thinkers. LOL, I'd be downright afeared to make that claim to their face! But men have a knack for rationalizing their beliefs, first coming to their conclusions then making the facts support those. In this respect the only difference in the Jew and the Gentile is they (being by and large smarter) are better at it! And yes we all tend to back ourselves into a corner with that kind of thinking. Most of us did this while in mainC, and it is only by the grace of God we were able to confront our error and come out of the church. Add to that it is an abundance of grace that keeps us from going off the deep end even here. So I'd caution that we need to approach this in all humility before God and all conviction before men; knowing where we stand and what we believe and why; and being ready to defend our faith in season and out (2 Tim 4:2); and we should do this as much to stand firm in our own minds as to be able to convince others, because there are some people out there on both sides of the aisle that will tell you the sky is red and make many men believe it!

Sorry everyone - I didn't insert this quote of Alon's correctly in my Reply above. Still trying to figure out how to do that. Anyways, my response is right above!

[alon]

garrett, I fixed the "quote" for you in the above post. I usually aske before I modify anything another person wrote, but I didn't think you'd mind.

Upper right corner of each box is a "quote" and "modify" button. Use the quote button to quote someone else. I usually edit out everything except what I want to reply to when the quote screen comes up.

On the quote screen itself, or on a regular reply screen which looks like you were trying to work from, there is a quote function on the task bar at top of screen. You apparently hit the quote in front of my statement (which I hope you dragged and copied from the main thread instead of typing it all in!). In order to bracket the quote and thus make it actually quote something, you must drag and highlight the desired statement, THEN hit the quote button.

The advantage to hitting the quote button on the main post is it will automatically tell everyone who you are quoting.

Any questions or problems PM me and we'll work it out. Just click on a red "alon" anywhere you can find one (I know, they are scarce, but ... ) and you can PM from there.

Jan 8, 2015 17:26:47 GMT -8 garrett said:

Alon - Just an FYI, I wasn't just blanketing Jewish people as being intellectually lazy (otherwise I condemn myself) but in terms of the acts of G-d and the prophecies fulfilled, I still find the mental block (and laziness) in so many places. As for a bunch of people being smart for such a disproportionate group compared to the rest of the world...I don't know. I've met lots of brilliant people from completely different backgrounds. I'm no smarter than the average bear!

Too many times only the smart ones survived, and all too often they had to live by their witts because many occupations were denied them. Darwin wasn't ALL wrong, just the ape part (well, some of my friends, but we won't go there!). So they TEND to be smarter. But you are right, they are just like the rest of us, only moreso!

I've had the chance to read anti-missionary and anti-Yeshua literature over time, and the arguments against what I believe are so bad, so "college freshman", and taken out of context. They are literally written as though the authors have not done any honest research. The past 2000 years of persecution would DEFINITELY cloud the perception of a LOT of people but it doesn't change the facts surrounding who Yeshua is and the religious faith surrounding him. Does that make sense?

Makes a lot of sense. And yes, I find most of their arguments disingenuous, but often informative. For example, they typically lead with the fact that messiah simply means anointed, or anointed one. Prophets were anointed, so were kings. They say we have made Jesus into some kind of super-anointed God. But they don't tell you that the Messiah as Savior is a wholly Jewish idea! It was discussed in the Mishnah! There were MANY men who tried to take on the mantle of Messiah, anointed of God and Savior of the Jewish people. They all died, by the way, and none has yet been resurrected. But many Jews believed in and followed these people. In point of fact, this idea cost the Jews the victory in the Bar Kochba revolt precisely because Rabbi Akiva proclaimed Bar Kochba the Messiah, precisely the same type of Messiah as Yeshua, and the Notsrim couldn't bow to him because they believed Yeshua to be HaMoshiach! And they had to leave the revolt. So great, thanks for the lesson in Hebrew semantics, and point well taken. But you (the anti-missionaries) just lied to me. One grain of truth does not make an argument true. But one lie makes the whole argument a lie.

In evil (and short) times such as these I think it's necessary to say it. The future of people's souls is important.

So, when I hear stories of people leaving the true faith....some of this is what comes to my mind and it doesn't go away.

I hope that makes sense ...

Makes perfect sense, and a very good point.

Dan C

[rivkah]

Sgalom everyone!

Recently within another local messianic community (in NC), there were three couples that have gone apostate, denying Yeshua and are converting to Chabad.

This group was all about observance but they drifted into reading more and more rabbinic writing, and learning from them. You can see where this led to. How can we provent such a thing from happening to ourselves? It is a danger I've seen. Just want your thoughts!

Also, what is the protocol for how to tear those who once professed but now go so far as to speak against Yeahua?

Thanks.

[alon]

Jun 15, 2015 18:00:09 GMT -8 rivkah said:

Recently within another local messianic community (in NC), there were three couples that have gone apostate, denying Yeshua and are converting to Chabad.

This group was all about observance but they drifted into reading more and more rabbinic writing, and learning from them. You can see where this led to. How can we provent such a thing from happening to ourselves? It is a danger I've seen. Just want your thoughts!

Also, what is the protocol for how to tear those who once professed but now go so far as to speak against Yeahua?

Well, certainly they should be removed from your fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV) But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Chabad, or Orthodox Judaism, is idolatrous. They lean more to Eastern mysticism than to . To eat, especially when breaking bread or if salt, wine or juice is present, is to enter into a covenant relationship with these people; and discussios around the table are intimate. That is why the proscription here. I don't think it means you cannot be friendly with them, but that friendship now has very definite limits. If the Rabbi in their former congregation wishes to allow them to attend (they'd be asked to leave Beit Aveinu, my synagogue), then there should be some very stringent limitations placed on them. But frankly, it'd be like allowing a snake in your bed and telling it to lay straight and not bite you or your spouse. It just ain't gonna happen, no matter how close an eye everyone keeps on the thing. If close fellowship continues with members of that synagogue, someone else will be pulled away.

Dan C

[rivkah]

I agree that no fellowship should be had with these people. In a conversation I had with a friend of mine (who's own daughter and son in-law have gone to Chabad) - she is very much in shock over it of course. It must be heart breaking when it's your own family. I'm not a part of this group officially but only know some of the families in it and sometimes go over to homes for Erev shabbat.

How can I minister to those who have been hurt by this situation? How can we try and prevent others from going down the same path?

Thanks

[jimmie]

Maybe we should think back on our own time of leaving the “christian church”. When they refused to fellowship with us, because we had become “Judaizes”. Did that make us want to rejoin their fold or run from them.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Our goal is to restore those taken, in the fault of adhering to doctrines of men, to fellowship with God.
At some point, the Church will have to react, if they are unruly as alon has pointed out.

[alon]

Jun 16, 2015 2:39:30 GMT -8 rivkah said:

I agree that no fellowship should be had with these people. In a conversation I had with a friend of mine (who's own daughter and son in-law have gone to Chabad) - she is very much in shock over it of course. It must be heart breaking when it's your own family. I'm not a part of this group officially but only know some of the families in it and sometimes go over to homes for Erev shabbat.

How can I minister to those who have been hurt by this situation? How can we try and prevent others from going down the same path?

The answer to both your questions is, I think, education. We must educate ourselves to answer the arguments of anti-missionaries, ebionites and cults. We must also educate ourselves and others to the tendencies talked about in this thread. Understand and relate to others that Messianic Judaism is its own, separate entity; and while some may have gone through different evolutions to get here, it is an entity unto itself and requires no evolution to believe its tennets. In understanding that, we break the perception that there is always something better in the next evolution.

Ministering to families of those who leave MJ either to Judaism or back to HR or Christianity, all you can do is be there for them. Offer sympathy and keep them in your prayers. Since families will probably maintain contact, you can maybe help research any questions that come up so they can answer them satisfactorily. As I think jimmie was saying, the goal here is twofold; to possibly return them to the fold and at the same time keep them from drawing others away. Here is another place you can be of help, encouraging family members to stay the course and not join their wayward relatives in whatever direction they've taken.

In the end, all you can do is try though. It is to their heart motivation as to what they choose to do. Even God won't interfere with free choice.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

There is hope in how they were raised. Hopefully this is just a lesson to learn and they will simply find a deeper love for Yeshua. I know I had to get far from Him to realize how close I want to stay to Him. I think this is something we all have to do on some level, and hopefully that is what is going on here.

If you don't mind me asking, Were ther commonalities these couples had in terms of complaints or dissatisfaction with Messianic Judaism. Did it seem like Observsnce or acceptance became an idol? I have a hard time wrapping my mind around their thought process of leaving Yeshua when He is the one who got them here.

It is nice to see you post Rivkah! You clearly care for your friends deeply, and their is also a lot of hope in the prayer of a true friend. I hope the best for all of you.

[Questor]

Jan 1, 2015 18:56:32 GMT -8 alon said:

Jan 1, 2015 9:02:33 GMT -8 tonga said:

I'm not really sure what you can do about it. I think as some try to get more involved in Jewish culture and religion, they start to read/study things which conflict with Christian/Messianic beliefs. That seems to start them OTD, from a Messianic POV.

Part of the problem is the mentality that I talked about. Another is that there are few qualified Messianic Rabbis who can deal with this, answering the allegations of anti-missionaries or just the desire for "more". Another is that most of what is out there is Messianic light. They still have a lot of the problems in their doctrine as mainstream Christianity. Not sure what can be done about it either. And the really thing is for those that just want more, eventually mainstream Judaism won't be enough.

Dan C

I fear that there may be simply a lot of lying going on in order to persuade someone away from a deeply held belief in Yeshua...a sort of cut and dried argument by Chassidim that you have all that MJ's have, without the fear of idolatry; mixed with the anti-missionary 'tear the Brit Chadashah to shreds' with legal reasoning rather than attempting to understand the Tanakh, and all of the Brit Chadashah as an interlocking whole, inspired by the Ruach haKodesh.  

It is very easy to attack the translations from the Greek Testaments as having errors...which they probably did not have when written, but 1900 years later have suffered tremendously from lack of scholarship, and lack of accuracy.  The Brit Chadashah was not guarded against by Hebraic Authorities as the Tanakh was...there was never time before events overcame the writings.

People outside of deep Messianic understanding learn to attack those things that are obviously able to be attacked, though there are fully complete answers to any attack if the one attacking is willing to listen to those truly knowledgable. Add the Chasiddic 'Yeshiva' requirements to be able considered to have sufficient standing to even converse on a level playing field before they will even listen to what you are saying can swamp a Messianic Believer into to thinking their belief in Yeshua is suspect because of lack of knowledge from the approved source. They do not attack what Yeshua said and did, just that Yeshua cannot be of Davidic birth, and the fact that world peace has not been attained...as if those were the only considerations for Messiahship. They ignore the prophecies in Daniel demanding that the Messiah had to come before the 2nd Temple was destroyed, and that Yeshua fits all the Tanakh Prophecies as to how he lived, died, and why.

I also agree that those converting are probably seeking an emotional high that they have lost along their journey, and still seek...as if the 'days of glorious' can be lived every day of one's life. Most of life is a very hard slog through a lot of tedious details of living, and continuing to learn, and absorb all that is within the Scriptures, amplified by the Sages where appropriate, is part of that slog, while at one and the same time being a delight, and a cause of tearing one's hair out (if one still has hair!).

After reading several books written by escaping Chassidim of what it is like inside those talmudic knowledge farms, it seems to leave a lot of Chassiddim quite cold after the initial euphoria, and they were born into Chassidim enclaves. 

[alon]

Jun 27, 2015 22:26:36 GMT -8 Questor said:

Jan 1, 2015 18:56:32 GMT -8 alon said:

Part of the problem is the mentality that I talked about. Another is that there are few qualified Messianic Rabbis who can deal with this, answering the allegations of anti-missionaries or just the desire for "more". Another is that most of what is out there is Messianic light. They still have a lot of the problems in their doctrine as mainstream Christianity. Not sure what can be done about it either. And the really thing is for those that just want more, eventually mainstream Judaism won't be enough.

Dan C

I fear that there may be simply a lot of lying going on in order to persuade someone away from a deeply held belief in Yeshua...a sort of cut and dried argument by Chassidim that you have all that MJ's have, without the fear of idolatry; mixed with the anti-missionary 'tear the Brit Chadashah to shreds' with legal reasoning rather than attempting to understand the Tanakh, and all of the Brit Chadashah as an interlocking whole, inspired by the Ruach haKodesh.  

It is very easy to attack the translations from the Greek Testaments as having errors...which they probably did not have when written, but 1900 years later have suffered tremendously from lack of scholarship, and lack of accuracy.  The Brit Chadashah was not guarded against by Hebraic Authorities as the Tanakh was...there was never time before events overcame the writings.

I am sure that those Jews, either ant-missionaries, Chassidim, or otherwise, believe they are right. Some, especially anti-missionaries do lie; I've caught them at it. The same can be said of Christians trying to bring us back into the fold. However I wouldn't paint either camp with the broad brush of their being liars. In fact, the point here wasn't that there are those trying to draw us away, but that our own attitudes are what makes it easy for this to happen- especially for those converting to Judaism, again especially Chassidism, and those drawn to cults, Ebionism, and other heresies.

People outside of deep Messianic understanding learn to attack those things that are obviously able to be attacked, though there are fully complete answers to any attack if the one attacking is willing to listen to those truly knowledgable. Add the Chasiddic 'Yeshiva' requirements to be able considered to have sufficient standing to even converse on a level playing field before they will even listen to what you are saying can swamp a Messianic Believer into to thinking their belief in Yeshua is suspect because of lack of knowledge from the approved source. They do not attack what Yeshua said and did, just that Yeshua cannot be of Davidic birth, and the fact that world peace has not been attained...as if those were the only considerations for Messiahship. They ignore the prophecies in Daniel demanding that the Messiah had to come before the 2nd Temple was destroyed, and that Yeshua fits all the Tanakh Prophecies as to how he lived, died, and why.

Actually Judaism doesn't demand that kind of accuracy from texts. In fact, they don't see "cannon" as we do- the inerrant Word of God. One of the biggest eye-openers for me was when I started reading the notes in my JPS Study TNK and saw scripture torn apart and examined, every discrepancy real or apparent laid out for all to see! Their attacks in this vein are just how they see scripture. This is why I continue to push for us to examine scripture with the same critical eye, and then you can use what you learn to counter their arguments against the B'rith Chadasha and, by extension or directly against Yeshua. If you don't, they'll tear you to pieces and leave you for the dogs. Or convert those who are predisposed.

I also agree that those converting are probably seeking an emotional high that they have lost along their journey, and still seek...as if the 'days of glorious' can be lived every day of one's life. Most of life is a very hard slog through a lot of tedious details of living, and continuing to learn, and absorb all that is within the Scriptures, amplified by the Sages where appropriate, is part of that slog, while at one and the same time being a delight, and a cause of tearing one's hair out (if one still has hair!).

After reading several books written by escaping Chassidim of what it is like inside those talmudic knowledge farms, it seems to leave a lot of Chassiddim quite cold after the initial euphoria, and they were born into Chassidim enclaves. 

Yep, it do get tedious. But we are called to that tedium. Look at the Hebrews in this week's par'shah, Chukat. They were almost there, so close they could taste the milk and honey. But they were denied access to shorter routes and had to take a longer route around those who denied them. God taught them patience ... again! Miriam also died, and they were taught where their faith truly resided ... again! 40 yrs gone, the loss of an entire generation because they wanted the promises without the work of killing their giants. And the worst of those giants resides in each of us, and must be killed one cut at a time.

Had the trust in Yeshua and their belief in the Messianic message of those who convert been strong enough, no one could have led them away. That's the point, the responsibility rests with us, individually and corporately to hold to the truth we've been shown. Otherwise we are lost already.

Dan C

[Questor]

Jun 27, 2015 23:14:59 GMT -8 alon said:

Jun 27, 2015 22:26:36 GMT -8 Questor said:

I fear that there may be simply a lot of lying going on in order to persuade someone away from a deeply held belief in Yeshua...a sort of cut and dried argument by Chassidim that you have all that MJ's have, without the fear of idolatry; mixed with the anti-missionary 'tear the Brit Chadashah to shreds' with legal reasoning rather than attempting to understand the Tanakh, and all of the Brit Chadashah as an interlocking whole, inspired by the Ruach haKodesh.  

It is very easy to attack the translations from the Greek Testaments as having errors...which they probably did not have when written, but 1900 years later have suffered tremendously from lack of scholarship, and lack of accuracy.  The Brit Chadashah was not guarded against by Hebraic Authorities as the Tanakh was...there was never time before events overcame the writings.

I am sure that those Jews, either anti-missionaries, Chassidim, or otherwise, believe they are right. Some, especially anti-missionaries do lie; I've caught them at it. The same can be said of Christians trying to bring us back into the fold. However I wouldn't paint either camp with the broad brush of their being liars. In fact, the point here wasn't that there are those trying to draw us away, but that our own attitudes are what makes it easy for this to happen- especially for those converting to Judaism, again especially Chassidism, and those drawn to cults, Ebionism, and other heresies.

Yes, this why I said 'I fear that there may be simply a lot of lying going on in order to persuade someone away from a deeply held belief in Yeshua'.  After my long battle with my anti-missionary acquaintince, I simply withdrew for a while to heal, and read a lot.  The pity of it is that this man continues to seek to convince even evangelical Christians that they are wrong in believing Yeshua is the Mashiach, complete with handouts about what is wrong with Yeshua's geneology.   He does not take Virgin birth as worthy of discussion, but only a means of disqualifying Yeshua from inheriting from Yosef, and then stomps on the idea of a Virgin birth as silly...Miryam was obviously 'unchaste'.

What I still do not understand, barring demons, is why he is seeking to convince all Yeshua Believers that Yeshua is not for him, and thus should not be for them. The level of intensity to even stay in civil conversation with him is as bad as when speaking to committed athiests that shout at you.  I only kept trying to talk to him because he seemed to be on Messianic sites that I stumbled over in my eTravels asking what appeared to be earnest questions, and trying to get conversations started.  He isn't even inviting people to his synagogue, so I can only assume he is working for the Adversary.

Jun 27, 2015 23:14:59 GMT -8 alon said:

Jun 27, 2015 22:26:36 GMT -8 Questor said:

People outside of deep Messianic understanding learn to attack those things that are obviously able to be attacked, though there are fully complete answers to any attack if the one attacking is willing to listen to those truly knowledgable. Add the Chasiddic 'Yeshiva' requirements to be able considered to have sufficient standing to even converse on a level playing field before they will even listen to what you are saying can swamp a Messianic Believer into to thinking their belief in Yeshua is suspect because of lack of knowledge from the approved source. They do not attack what Yeshua said and did, just that Yeshua cannot be of Davidic birth, and the fact that world peace has not been attained...as if those were the only considerations for Messiahship. They ignore the prophecies in Daniel demanding that the Messiah had to come before the 2nd Temple was destroyed, and that Yeshua fits all the Tanakh Prophecies as to how he lived, died, and why.

Actually Judaism doesn't demand that kind of accuracy from texts. In fact, they don't see "cannon" as we do- the inerrant Word of God. One of the biggest eye-openers for me was when I started reading the notes in my JPS Study TNK and saw scripture torn apart and examined, every discrepancy real or apparent laid out for all to see! Their attacks in this vein are just how they see scripture. This is why I continue to push for us to examine scripture with the same critical eye, and then you can use what you learn to counter their arguments against the B'rith Chadasha and, by extension or directly against Yeshua. If you don't, they'll tear you to pieces and leave you for the dogs. Or convert those who are predisposed.

I shall get a copy...it sounds fascinating, not that I particularly want to stomp on the Tanakh, particularly when I am beginning to learn the Hebrew of it.

Jun 27, 2015 23:14:59 GMT -8 alon said:

Jun 27, 2015 22:26:36 GMT -8 Questor said:

I also agree that those converting are probably seeking an emotional high that they have lost along their journey, and still seek...as if the 'days of glorious' can be lived every day of one's life. Most of life is a very hard slog through a lot of tedious details of living, and continuing to learn, and absorb all that is within the Scriptures, amplified by the Sages where appropriate, is part of that slog, while at one and the same time being a delight, and a cause of tearing one's hair out (if one still has hair!).

After reading several books written by escaping Chassidim of what it is like inside those talmudic knowledge farms, it seems to leave a lot of Chassiddim quite cold after the initial euphoria, and they were born into Chassidim enclaves. 

Yep, it do get tedious. But we are called to that tedium. Look at the Hebrews in this week's par'shah, Chukat. They were almost there, so close they could taste the milk and honey. But they were denied access to shorter routes and had to take a longer route around those who denied them. God taught them patience ... again! Miriam also died, and they were taught where their faith truly resided ... again! 40 yrs gone, the loss of an entire generation because they wanted the promises without the work of killing their giants. And the worst of those giants resides in each of us, and must be killed one cut at a time.

Had the trust in Yeshua and their belief in the Messianic message of those who convert been strong enough, no one could have led them away. That's the point, the responsibility rests with us, individually and corporately to hold to the truth we've been shown. Otherwise we are lost already.

Dan C

I think that the main argument for Yeshua being Mashiach is the effect the Tanakh and has made on the last 1900 years of pagans...there are a lot less pagans, and there is an entire world that has heard of YHVH and Yeshua.  Am I being too simplistic?


Still, I wake up and go to bed saying the Shema, and attempt to fail a little less each day to observe what I know well...which means I continue to progress in my becoming more Jewish, though that was never my intent.  Of course, had any of us known when we began where we were going, we might have counted the cost too high, when the cost is all borne by Yeshua.  We simply perceive 'our light burden' as heavier than we would like it to be.


Yet even so, celebrate with me...my closest Christian friends are beginning the first step of keeping Shabbat...resting...and have proudly admitted they are no longer pre-trib Baptists.  Which means I cannot complain of the 'the light burden' because they are just beginning to pick it up.  

Perhaps my odd ways had an effect on them when I bought the two foot long shofar, and let them blow it?