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Post by alon on Dec 13, 2014 21:30:40 GMT -8
Recently a friend and brother converted from Messianic Judaism to the Jewish faith, denying Yeshua and the authority of the B'rit Chadasha. Some other friends just returned from a visit to California where they learned that the pastor (he was ordained as a Christian, but gave it up for MJ) who led them to Messianism had also converted. We talked with Rav S about this, and it is apparently a very big problem. Too many people move from Christianity to Hebrew Roots to Messianism to Chasidism.
I, like many was raised in the Christian church (Southern Baptist), but started looking into the Hebrew Roots movement. While I found a lot of bad information there, I also saw a lot of truth. So I stayed with it. Then I discovered Messianic Judaism, and I was all in! This is a very common evolution, and a dangerous one! The danger is in that we may look at it as a "natural evolution", each phase a natural "step" to the next phase. If you see it this way, then you are crossing religions. For one thing, it is predicated on the "fact" that Christianity has its roots in Judaism. It does not. And while HR has a lot of truth, it is at best " Light", and at worst mostly wrong. Messianic Judaism is a complete break with everything we've known before. It is its own entity.
Those who see it as just another step in the evolution are in danger of wanting more of what is not good. If observance was good, then even more commandments would be better! I know I have said we need to look at the mitzvoth, including the fences, a little more kindly. But I also said that many or even most need to be thrown out or modified. However the natural progression model would say "Bring 'em on!" And this is what happens- these people find Chadism. Ultra-orthodox Judaism, with all its rules and rituals. Many of these after a time get disenchanted with all these new rules and fall away, back into a worse state than before they were saved in the Christian faith.
"The ultimate form of observance is more observance!" (Rav S). Messianic Judaism is its own religion, its own faith. It doesn't require any "steps" to come to it, and is not itself a step to anything else! It is the faith of the Disciples and the First Cen believers. It IS Judaism, just as those believers were all Jews or Jewish proselytes.
Christianity and Chasidism are both pagan. This step system of belief forms a circle, not a line when graphed out correctly. From paganism we came, and the draw to return is strong, the end result being the unsaved condition we all started in. So wherever we any of us came from, we need to understand where we are. There's more here than we'll ever learn in a lifetime, so there is no need for "more." In fact, more in the sense there is something better out there is a dangerous idea.
Dan C
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Miykhael
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To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 13, 2014 22:16:15 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Dec 14, 2014 13:49:27 GMT -8
I only watched half of it, then had to stop to get my 3 hrs sleep for the day. I like listening to or reading Chasidics, because they often bring insights not found elsewhere. But we have to be extremely careful with them. They are, as I said, a pagan RELIGION. I know, his primary insight here is the difference in a religion and a relationship. Very Jewish, and very insightful; and a lie concerning Chasidism.
Chasidism is Jewish mysticism. It is based in the Zohar and steeped in Cabalah, and has borrowed heavily from eastern cults/religions. They believe in reincarnation, for example. And they teach the ten seffirote; the ten different aspects of G-d. These are mapped on the human body similar to the chakras (Indian) or tantiens (Chinese). They believe each of these aspects to actually be separate individuals making up a godhead. This is polytheism, a hallmark of paganism. So while they take on the appearance of ultra-orthodox Jewry, and even give great insights into Jewish life, faith and culture, they practice a RELIGION completely outside of true Judaism.
His anti-Isreal bias snuck in just a little there too. "So, just a little- aren't you making a big deal about just a little?"
1Co 5:6b Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
But very interesting. Thanks for the link.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 15, 2014 14:03:54 GMT -8
Do you know what their reasoning was or what they felt like they were missing from Messianic Judaism? It would be interesting to hear their rational. Do you think they were attracted to the ritual, mystical, or ....? Was there anything concerning you noticed prior to the decision to leave? Just curious.
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Post by alon on Dec 15, 2014 15:06:01 GMT -8
Do you know what their reasoning was or what they felt like they were missing from Messianic Judaism? It would be interesting to hear their rational. Do you think they were attracted to the ritual, mystical, or ....? Was there anything concerning you noticed prior to the decision to leave? Just curious.
Amos 9:9 "For behold, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the earth."
It does tend to shake us up a bit when this happens. But again it goes to heart motivation. Why are we really here? Do you want the truth, or just the excitement? When it gets hard, will you stay or run off in search of something new? Everyone has to answer that one for themselves. All we can do is pray for and encourage each other.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 17, 2014 10:57:21 GMT -8
Interesting. Did you see indications before they left that things weren't heading in a good direction? I am just surprised this happens frequently because Yeshua is how they found their way to -observance to begin with. Something must have been off all along. I can see the danger you describe though.
I was recently reminded that I just need to spend time talking with Him; just plain, old, English-speaking, boring housewife me. 
I was reading about Joseph, and thinking about the time he spent in prison. I had a different perspective this time. I thought how precious that time must have been; not just for Joseph, but for G-d. G-d gave him precious time to do nothing but just be with Him. It somehow relates to this topic for me. As valuable as study and understanding Biblical history is, sometimes we need to put the books down and just be with Him.
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Post by alon on Dec 17, 2014 15:32:31 GMT -8
Interesting. Did you see indications before they left that things weren't heading in a good direction? I am just surprised this happens frequently because Yeshua is how they found their way to -observance to begin with. Something must have been off all along.
In neither case were we there with them to observe. We only know what we got from talking to these individuals and what we discussed with Rav S. But I imagine there were indicators. Certainly they described a process where at the end there was confrontation over ideas with those who were there. I know since coming here I've seen people go their own way, some because they were never truly into MJ in the first place- wanting instead to lead others here away. But I've also seen where some start listening to or reading someone else who they think sounds more knowledgeable than we here trying to slog our way through to the truth. There's a lot of charismatic charlatans out there who can sound enlightened but lead you into darkness.
MJ is a new movement based on a system of worship that was wiped out centuries ago. Anyone who tells you they have all the answers is point blank a liar. But too many people need that assurance that SOMEONE knows! Or they fall back into a religion which was not wiped out and offers stability that way; or into a cult which seems to offer more answers.
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 18, 2014 6:08:41 GMT -8
But I've also seen where some start listening to or reading someone else who they think sounds more knowledgeable than we here trying to slog our way through to the truth. There's a lot of charismatic charlatans out there who can sound enlightened but lead you into darkness. Dan C
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
edit: took out the tags cluttering the post- no change to content. Good scriptural reference!
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Miykhael
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To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 18, 2014 8:51:45 GMT -8
B”H
I was once taught that, one is only wise for as long as he continues to search for wisdom. Once he imagines that he has completely attained it, he is a fool.
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Post by alon on Dec 18, 2014 15:19:07 GMT -8
But I've also seen where some start listening to or reading someone else who they think sounds more knowledgeable than we here trying to slog our way through to the truth. There's a lot of charismatic charlatans out there who can sound enlightened but lead you into darkness. Dan C Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
touching G4012 περί peri per-ee'
From the base of G4008; properly through (all over), that is, around; figuratively with respect to; used in various applications, of place, cause or time (with the genitive case denoting the subject or occasion or superlative point; with the accusative case the locality, circuit, matter, circumstance or general period): - (there-) about, above, against, at, on behalf of, X and his company, which concern, (as) concerning, for, X how it will go with, ([there-, where-]) of, on, over, pertaining (to), for sake, X (e-) state, (as) touching, [where-] by (in), with. In compounds it retains substantially the same meaning of circuit (around),, or completeness (through).So we have the idea of, a thorough knowledge.
things offered unto idols G1494 εἰδωλόθυτον eidōlothuton i-do-loth'-oo-ton
Neuter of a compound of G1497 and a presumed derivative of G2380; an image sacrifice, that is, part of an idolatrous offering: - (meat, thing that is) offered (in sacrifice, sacrificed) to (unto) idols.This implies sacrifices to idols.
knowlege G1108 γνῶσις gnōsis gno'-sis
From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.And we know how to do it.
Puffeth up G5448 φυσιόω phusioō foo-see-o'-o
From G5449 in the primary sense of blowing; to inflate, that is, (figuratively) make proud (haughty): - puff up.It makes us proud.
charity G26 ἀγάπη agape ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.Love, but:
agape (ἀγάπη agápē) means "love: esp. brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God." Agape is used in the biblical passage known as the "love chapter," 1 Corinthians 13, and is described there and throughout the New Testament as brotherly love, affection, good will, love, and benevolence. Whether the love given is returned or not, the person continues to love (even without any self-benefit).
Éros (ἔρως érōs) means "love, mostly of the sexual passion." "intimate love." It can also apply to dating relationships as well as marriage.
Philia (φιλία philía) means "affectionate regard, friendship," usually "between equals." It is a dispassionate virtuous love. Philia is expressed variously as loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality, and familiarity. Furthermore, in the same text philos denotes a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers.
It is agape love, the lowest form of love; the kind of love we show to all men.
edifieth G3618 οἰκοδομέω ikodomeō oy-kod-om-eh'-o
From the same as G3619; to be a house builder, that is, construct or (figuratively) confirm: - (be in) build (-er, -ing, up), edify, embolden.Builds up, emboldens us.
So we all have a thorough knowledge of how to sacrifice to idols. We can do this without any instruction; it is in our very nature. And this knowledge gives us a sense of self importance- it puffs us up with pride. But the most common form of love, that shown to all men, builds us up (as opposed to just puffing us up); it makes us bold to move forward.
I would however say we should be careful to distinguish betwee love to our fellow men and discernment when it comes to listening to them.
Concerning priests; Ezekiel 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
So I'd say be careful whatever priest/rabbi/pastor et all that we follow, we should make sure he was sent of God.
Malachi 318 Then shall ye return , and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Heb 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I think everyone here has enough "meat", and the sense to discern between good and evil. We're here because we recognize the truth, and we can discern what is said and hold each other accountable. This is one way we exercise brotherly love to each other. We should accept rebuke, discern its truth, and either stand our ground or change accordingly (see "My "I found out I was wrong" Thread" theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3384/out-wrong-thread ).
Kind of embarrassing it stays on the 1st or 2nd page, but ... . Point is, I can stand my ground when necessary, but when shown I am wrong, I change my understanding. I won't do that for just anybody. I trust those here to be searching for the truth just as I am, and so give all due consideration when presented with an alternate view. But I know many people who can spout good sounding arguments off the tops of their heads. They've studied the Bible but also studied what someone who has an ungodly agenda says, and they can quote both. Anti-missionaries are like that. So are the Ebonites. Once I discern where these people are coming from, I will not fellowship with them. I have argued with them in order to free a brother from the bondage of their teachings, or to convince them differently. But I discern what they say and who they are.
Some come here but are still in bondage to their past teachings. I'll fellowship with them here, and even consider what they say. But I have to discern where they are at and take what they say in that context. I've even been shown scripturally where I was wrong by one of these, and so changed my mind and my understanding. I trust that person is genuinely searching, even though he often gets it wrong (my opinion), so I do consider all he says. I can be wrong.
So be careful who you listen to, lest you be deceived into following idols and become puffed with false pride. Discern everything, especially what you hear on the net (includes us here) and discern what is right. And may HaShem bless us all in our search for His truth!
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 18, 2014 15:46:34 GMT -8
B”H I was once taught that, one is only wise for as long as he continues to search for wisdom. Once he imagines that he has completely attained it, he is a fool.
Dan C
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 21, 2014 11:45:34 GMT -8
ב’’ה
Isn’t there only one true wisdom? So called Man’s wisdom/wisdom of man is really not wisdom. (תְהִלִּים) Tehillim Psalms 2
Proverbs 2:6-8 For HaShem gives wisdom; from his mouth comes knowledge and understanding. He stores up common sense for the upright, is a shield to those whose conduct is blameless, in order to guard the courses of justice and preserve the way of those faithful to him.
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Post by alon on Dec 21, 2014 13:05:07 GMT -8
ב’’ה Isn’t there only one true wisdom? So called Man’s wisdom/wisdom of man is really not wisdom. (תְהִלִּים) Tehillim Psalms 2 Proverbs 2:6-8 For HaShem gives wisdom; from his mouth comes knowledge and understanding. He stores up common sense for the upright, is a shield to those whose conduct is blameless, in order to guard the courses of justice and preserve the way of those faithful to him.
While in Hebrew Roots I bought into a few things that were just wrong. And sometimes those sources seemed pretty solid. But like anything, the more we question (and we should do this constantly) the more I found out the truth. Sometimes what they said was verified, others it was found false, and others still I later found that one little grain of a lie snuck in there. And I'm then reminded of my Logic Prof. filling the board with a proof of a one sentence argument. Toward the end of his writing space he found one small instance where that statement could be false; and he then shouted "That statement sucketh in perpetuity!" How much of a lie does it take to make something a lie? It is often that one little grain snuck in by the enemy that grows and destroys us and everyone we come in contact with.
So we can learn from others, and yes they are men and so may make mistakes. But it is up to us to question, to ask Elohim for discernment, to give the benefit of the doubt sometimes but to recognize the charlatan and not to follow him.
Dan C |
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tonga
Full Member
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Post by tonga on Jan 1, 2015 9:02:33 GMT -8
Recently a friend and brother converted from Messianic Judaism to the Jewish faith, denying Yeshua and the authority of the B'rit Chadasha. Some other friends just returned from a visit to California where they learned that the pastor (he was ordained as a Christian, but gave it up for MJ) who led them to Messianism had also converted. We talked with Rav S about this, and it is apparently a very big problem. Too many people move from Christianity to Hebrew Roots to Messianism to Chasidism.
Dan C While web surfing I ran across an article that brought up this issue. I personally know 12-14 people who left the Messianic faith to convert to Judaism. Some went right into Orthodoxy, others "upgraded" from Reform or Conservative conversions. It's an interesting issue. While I don't encourage people converting to Judaism, all of the people I met were very sincere. I'm not really sure what you can do about it. I think as some try to get more involved in Jewish culture and religion, they start to read/study things which conflict with Christian/Messianic beliefs. That seems to start them OTD, from a Messianic POV. |
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Post by alon on Jan 1, 2015 18:56:32 GMT -8
I'm not really sure what you can do about it. I think as some try to get more involved in Jewish culture and religion, they start to read/study things which conflict with Christian/Messianic beliefs. That seems to start them OTD, from a Messianic POV.  thing is for those that just want more, eventually mainstream Judaism won't be enough.
Dan C |
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Light", and at worst mostly wrong. Messianic Judaism is a complete break with everything we've known before. It is its own entity.
thing is for those that just want more, eventually mainstream Judaism won't be enough.
