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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 15:33:23 GMT -8
The following posts are being moved, with permission, from a private conversation. I thought it might be edifying to others, and as well might benefit from the input of others.
garrett, I was just looking at your last status, where you asked if there are any Yeshua believing Rabbi's here. The site is overseen by Rabbi Reuel, and everyone here believes in Yeshua as both God and as Messiah. Feel free to post any questions, and we'll all be glad to help.
I know there are several who lurk and just read, which is OK. However some of you may be struggling with these same questions. It helps everyone when questions like these are openly posted and discussed. So don't anyone think you don't know enough to ask questions, put up problems, or have an opinion on something.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 15:36:15 GMT -8
I was wondering what you thought of how to best keep the Sabbath. I like to go to synagogue but I must drive. And what about the use of lights and the degree of Kashrut? What do you think Yehoshua would really think best to do?? I've not found any helpful answers so far. Something else I've noticed on this site is that a lot of people wrestle with the Christianity they grew up with and the grey area that exists between it and the true Middle-Eastern faith that we were given. Other Christians or believers think anything outside of the Western norm is just plain wrong or weird. It's very isolating. I tried on Messianic congregation in my city for quite a while but found it to mostly just be another church - with yarmulkes and bagels. Sort of disappointing! And one more thing.....I'm really looking for specifics if you should happen to know. Otherwise I'm still just rambling around in the dark!  Happy Thanksgiving - of all days for me to finally respond to you. G-d bless you - Garrett |
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 15:39:12 GMT -8
Unfortunately there is a lot of struggle, both within ourselves and as a community, on how to keep kasrut. This is a renewed movement, one that has not been practiced for hundreds of years. We are all learning as we go. There is even a lot of disagreement within sects, just as there was in the 1st century, which can make things even more confusing. That is why I put time and effort in here on this forum. It is a chance for those of us who are isolated to build consensus, or at least to air questions, in a structured environment and under the authority of a true Messianic community.
The degree of kasrut- make your food the day before. If it must be left in a crock pot or refrigerator, this is fine. I'd say even warming it up is ok, though there might be some disagreement on that. Which brings up another point- you are never going to please everybody. So on these finer points, read the scriptures for yourself and try to please HaShem. And don't let guilt resulting from someone else's idea of kasrut or halacha drive you away. If you should ever have the good fortune to come under the authority of a Rabbi who you trust and respect as being knowledgeable and a Godly man, then do as he instructs you, as he and his peers will make your halacha, including the finer points of kasrut.
I'll answer you just as my Rabbi answered me on your question about driving. The question came up because I and everyone in our congregation must drive to get to synagogue. Halacha is made by a consensus of your Rabbis. This is how it was in the first century. We practice Messianic Judaism, not Rabbinical Judaism. I live in a farming and ranching community, and if we couldn't drive, then no one would be able to attend synagogue. So halacha for us as handed down by our Rabbis is that driving is permitted, but not for work or commerce. Even then there are exceptions.
One of the things we as new Messianic Jews must contend with is our Christian thought processes, handed down by pagan Greco/Roman belief systems. We were given lists of do's and don'ts, and everything was black and white. In Jewish thought, there are higher mitzvoth, and the preservation of your family's livelihood and lifestyle is one of these. For example, a rancher during calving season must watch his herd periodically through every day, or they could loose valuable calves and even cows to calving problems. This could ruin them financially. Yeshua Himself spoke to this kind of thing:
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
So the Rabbis of most Judaic sects say we don't drive or cause a spark by turning on a light. We say that they, like their Christian counterparts have lost sight of the meanings of the commandments. Some have even become as dogmatic, seeing things in black in white. Our halacha is that you may drive to Synagogue. We don't waste electricity, which they didn't even have in the first century, by not flipping a switch because it makes a spark. We do still forbid cooking or doing any of these things for work that does not absolutely have to be done on Shabbath.
This is why it is to the Rabbis of your sect, your region and time to make halacha. They don't act alone or arbitrarily, and even should talk at length to their congregations on some topics before making halacha. But they apply the principals and concepts given in scripture, particularly  , to the particular problems their congregants face. And even then they must make rulings! I am given some leeway because there are things I cannot do because I live in a divided household.
So my advice is, drive to synagogue and don't feel guilty if the alternative is not to go. Turn lights on and off without worrying, as long as it is not for creative work or work for gain. Adjust your heat rather than see your family go cold (or hot). These things are halacha where I attend synagogue. From the little interaction I have had with R Reuel and his congregation, their halacha is the same- which makes sense since both are under the same parent organization. In the absence of good authority where you are, adopt ours.
I hope this helps. Feel free to ask if you have more questions.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 15:40:19 GMT -8
Dan, Thanks for your response. It's very helpful. Especially with regard to driving, lights, etc. It might seem petty to an "outsider" but the Sabbath has obviously got to mean something, and be sanctified. I think another thing that is important to the Sabbath is simply the "Sabbath mentality" - knowing from Friday night and throughout Saturday that the day is holy. You see, I have nothing to compare true Messianic Judaism to except the Orthodox Judaism I've been exposed to. I love the Shul I go to (I certainly don't broadcast my belief that the Messiah IS here)because it's the closest thing that makes sense in terms of worship, prayer, scripture reading in an orderly fashion, etc. Plus I feel it's a way to identify the most with what Yehoshua would have been doing while he walked the earth. I also get a chance to keep brushing up on the Hebrew. What is so wrong with this?? As I mentioned, it's just lonely that there aren't any like minded folks I know, apart from one good, close friend. At the end of the day, everyone is worshipping the same Creator, whether we realize it or not. And everyone at the shul will confess who is L-rd. Halachic law based on your LOCAL spiritual leaders seems to make a lot of sense, like you mentioned, especially depending on where you live. The Diaspora occurred because of sin. If it were not for huge violations against G-d we might not have to worry about being so far from a shul. In fact, if the Jewish leaders had not rejected the true Messiah we might not need to have this conversation at all! My wife and I are at a spot where we are still working through this. We are lost to the Church thing, however my wife is uncomfortable in Orthodox synagogues (which is fine). So we are trying to come up with a creative way to live a religious life that has sanctification. Oh - by the way feel free to post whatever you had asked about. A few last things (thanks for your patience). These issues stand out most in my mind these days: The hijacking of Yeshua - Seriously, what in the world has the Western world turned Him into? Seriously, our faith is a middle-eastern faith. Straight from the desert. Remember where Abram came from??? There are Christian believers who are our brothers and sisters but it seems harder to relate to "Christianity". Even as the Christmas holiday approaches.....oh boy. The traditional synagogue - I find the orderly reading of the prayer book, portion and prophetic reading to be very helpful compared to the major book-jumping that I found so tiresome in churches in the past. My opinion. Observant Jews would likely be shocked to death to see what goes on in a lot of Messianic congregations. This is only an opinion based on my experience. The loud worship music, people dancing, women throwing tallits over their shoulders like a common scarf. Understand - I simply try to keep these things in the context that a born and raised Jewish person would see. WHY do I hear pastors say YHVH so liberally on the radio programs or sermons I hear? They literally say it like it's no big deal. Where is the respect? At the shul it's Adonai or HaShem. We have so many names we can say but I hear that four letter worded shouted out and think, "you will never get across to an Orthodox". And lastly, Messiah saves us through Grace. But - it's required and even fun to perform DUTY. Apart from what He has told us to do, we can be creative and make up nice duties to be sanctified. A man can cover his head every day if he wants, to be reminded quite literally of G-d. The candles can be lit on Friday, religious conversation with your spouse can be fun. To look and be different are basically what G-d had the Israelites do very early in the . It's a neat club for Jews and all the unique Gentiles the world over. In the past I've seen too many women (at large and small churches)dressed like they were going to a club on a Friday night. And no one addresses these dress habits. Women - you were made in His image to be loved and admired only by a spouse. Please find ways to still be beautiful and modest at the same time. Men - if you can afford it - no jeans. I know some really poor Jewish people that have me over for lunch on Shabbat and somehow they wear their best. Even though it's the same thing each Saturday. Just do it for G-d. I will talk to you later! Sorry for the rambling. Shalom. |
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 15:41:53 GMT -8
garrett, I was going to post the entire conversation, as you may benefit by others input and I am sure this will help many who come here, most just to lurk and read.
Going to shul and not telling them may backfire on you. They will eventually find out you believe in Yeshua, and then you could loose many friends and make hard feelings. It is good to be able to go and worship as God intended, but Yeshua was all for honesty as well.
We are all working through this, so you are in good company here!
Christianity lost its way from its inception. The early church fathers were pagans, and they wouldn't have any Jewishness contaminating their new religion. That they get crazier all the time is to be expected, since they are influenced and in many cases outright controlled by the enemy. Sadly, the same can be said of many Messianic sects. And in both we tend to see the extremes of either refusing to say the name "YHVH" or of bantering it about so as to make it common! I agree there is a degree of respect found in Judaism not seen in Christianity. But HaShem gave us His name so that we might use it- reverently, sparingly and worshipfully.
Agree, it is fun to keep the mitzvoth, and to keep His feasts and not the pagan feasts of the churches.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 15:43:57 GMT -8
Thank you Dan. Feel free to post whatever you want. It's good to talk about these things. And I'm open to correction any time I'm wrong, so I have nothing to lose.
Dan C |
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Post by alex on Dec 7, 2014 20:49:12 GMT -8
The following posts are being moved, with permission, from a private conversation. I thought it might be edifying to others, and as well might benefit from the input of others.
garrett, I was just looking at your last status, where you asked if there are any Yeshua believing Rabbi's here. The site is overseen by Rabbi Reuel, and everyone here believes in Yeshua as both God and as Messiah. Feel free to post any questions, and we'll all be glad to help.
Dan C
I have, however, run across Messianic Jews who see Yeshua as Prophet, Mashiach, pre-existant of the universe, but created and only an adopted son, fully authorized to do a specific job for God.
So long as Yeshua was acting for God, and perfect in all His ways, they do not see divinity as an issue at all. Xtians, on the other hand, would faint at the idea of not being able to worship Yeshua as God.
Did the Apostles and 1st Century Assembly worship Yeshua, except as a part of God? |
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Post by alon on Dec 8, 2014 1:44:25 GMT -8
I personally believe that YHVH and Yeshua are one and the same being...one God being in different places at one time, and Yeshua certainly choosing to limit Himself while on earth. It's the same with the Ruach, except that the Ruach is in a lot of different places, being attached to each who believes and trusts in Yeshua.
Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 11:29:14 GMT -8
With regards to keeping Kashrut and Halacha, if there are so many rules to follow wouldn't this restrict a lot of people from being free in God? Or also wouldn't this become legalistic? Just wondering.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Dec 10, 2014 13:42:14 GMT -8
With regards to keeping Kashrut and Halacha, if there are so many rules to follow wouldn't this restrict a lot of people from being free in God? Or also wouldn't this become legalistic? Just wondering.
James 1:25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect , which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.
Transgression of is sin, and the Rabbis added fences so that we wouldn't transgress HaShem's instructions. The idea is if you messed up and violated a fence, which was a further refinement of the Law, then you wouldn't have violated the Law yet. This is important as Judaism believes that one persons transgressions effect the entire nation. We raised as Gentiles tend to think of sin as a personal thing, effecting only us. But it is both communal and personal, and rarely if ever are the results of sin limited to just the sinner.
Society has both laws and all religions have rules to protect us from the "sins" of others. These tend to parallel God's Laws in most places, so there isn't really that much to add to what you already observe to keep . In some cases regarding religious instruction we may even have to drop some "laws." However with halacha there are two dangers. One is it can get too restrictive; have too many fences, or additional restrictions. Then yes, it can get burdensome. Yeshua liked to get after some of the Jewish leadership about this. But consider the other extreme, where observance is lax and we grow too dependent on grace to bail us out. True God's grace is sufficient, however if we keep repeating the same sins or we pick and choose the laws we want to keep, then where is the repentance necessary for grace to take effect? Telling God which Laws we'll keep is an affront to Him.
You don't have to take on the whole Law or especially live halachically all at once. But I do think it pleases HaShem that we continue to move forward, a little at a time, and keep everything we can. You and I may never be able to keep it all due to living in divided households, and here I think God's grace is sufficient. But it is not an excuse. We need to do all we can, and trust God with the rest.
Again, since you don't have a Messianic Rabbi where you are I'd suggest using the halacha of this site. Halacha is simply how we live, and is made by Rabbis who live as you do in the modern world. We aren't bound to what the Rabbis have said throughout history, as some sects of Judaism are. And Messianism doesn't tend to be as strict about things like driving or turning lights on and off. Add to this that, unlike Christianity which tends to be black and white, in Judaism there is a hierarchy of mitzvoth (instructions). There are many reasons for example that you can break Shabbat: to preserve life, tend livestock, help others, preform official functions at synagogue, etc. So it isn't as difficult as it might seem to keep God's .
Mat 11:30 "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 16:19:20 GMT -8
Thank you Alon for the explanation. I am not trying to be a stickler with this next question, yet what is the difference with God's laws compared to man's law that they put fences up? If man put these fences up in order to protect us from sinning is this not going against God's laws? Does not man put more laws upon God's laws that were not intended?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Dec 11, 2014 0:02:54 GMT -8
... what is the difference with God's laws compared to man's law that they put fences up? If man put these fences up in order to protect us from sinning is this not going against God's laws? Does not man put more laws upon God's laws that were not intended?
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
While this is often found in well meaning Messianic groups, my experience is it is far more universally true in mainstream Christianity. There are unwritten but vigorously enforced lines you do not cross. As part of a new movement, we tend to question EVERYTHIBG and keep only what passes through the fire. Christianity, which is stodgy and whose rules have been passed down for generations doesn't like challenges, especially if they uncover something wrong in their theology! I find that the laws of man get me into more hot water with Christians than with even Messianics who I disagree with (which obviously makes then wrong, right?  ). Everyone has their own codes which you should not transgress if you wish to fellowship there. Just some are easier to see, to codify and to deal with.
Fences can help tremendously. Like starting Shabbat 1/2 hr. before sundown Friday. If I shoot for sundown, I invariably end up frantically doing something I forgot or was late on before it gets TOO dark ... and then I break Shabbath, (but just a little ...). So that 1/2 hr. hedge helps me not break Shabbath but also to go into it less stressed and most un-Shabboslike. The hedge in this case makes things easier and more pleasant all the way around while helping me keep a very important commandment. Putting say another 1/2 hr. hedge on the hedge would be burdensome and probably convince me to abandon hedges and go straight for sundown; thus being counterproductive as well as just wrong!
As for its sinning against God's Law's, I'd say that goes to heart motivation, rightness, and the end result. If it helps others keep the Law without being overly burdensome, then I see no place we are told not to do it. If however they are oppressive, control was the motivation, and they make it difficult to keep the Law, then that is a bad fence and should be reviewed by the Rabbis prior to its being changed or dropped.
Fences are tools to help us not to sin. If they go past this simple function then we need to look at getting rid of the fence. But saying "I don't like it" and taking a run at the fence can be sin itself, even though the commandment it protects might not get broken. It is pride and possibly anger we display here. If the hedge is burdensome to you at this point in your walk, then I'd say carefully and prayerfully just try to keep the commandment and maybe add in the hedge later as you can. We are after all told to move into this easily, not just to buy a Messianics for Dummies book and get it all (wrong) at once!
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements: 29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom! 30 The messengers were sent off and went to Antioch, where they gathered the group together and delivered the letter. 31 After reading it, the people were delighted by its encouragement. 32 Y'hudah and Sila, who were also prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. 33 After they had spent some time there, they were sent off with a greeting of "Shalom!" from the brothers to those who had sent them.
Note the new believers were given a very doable starting place, and this encouraged them. Putting too much on people tends to drive them away. Note too they were given additional instruction, which they appreciated because even if they'd had a "Dummies Book" it is difficult to just do something new on your own. There came a time however when they had to stand on their own feet. Same with us. We need help and encouragement, as well as a righteous determination to do right in God's sight. And when required, we must humbly stand on our own. Humbly means we can acknowledge our inevitable mistakes and correct them; it means we understand this is not our religion but Gods' Synagogues and we probably will have to make some adjustments whenever fellowshipping with them.
And if you are having trouble with a commandment, check halacha for whatever authoritative body you've acknowledged and find out about the fences on that commandment. If there is no fence, talk with the Rabbi and maybe come up with a fence that works for you! But don't just gaff off the Law because you hate fences, or for that matter Laws!
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 6:28:09 GMT -8
So if this is the case why even add more fences? Why not just do what God says to do? One would be freer if they did.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Dec 11, 2014 7:04:35 GMT -8
So if this is the case why even add more fences? Why not just do what God says to do? One would be freer if they did.
We tend to look at freedom as being an absence of laws and/or lax enforcement. But consider how free you'd be if there were no laws against murder, or at least no real police presence to enforce that law. You'd not feel safe, even in your own home. An extreme example, but valid. And if there was a murderer who was successfully evading the police I'm sure you'd feel safer with a good fence around your yard, bars on the windows, deadbolts on the doors and maybe a good alarm system. Fences on fences to keep someone from violating your home. Wouldn't you be freer to not have to enter codes and fool with locks, doing checks on safety protocols every evening before dark? Sure you would, but if this guy had struck the neighbors home to either side of you I bet you'd do it. Well, I can guarantee ha satan has hit every home in your neighborhood every Friday evening. Having a half hour fence in place seems to me to be a minimal security measure against his murdering buttocks.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 11, 2014 8:02:01 GMT -8
This is one of the reasons I was taking the time to write some of the mitzvoth which, according to Orthodox Judaism still are in effect today. As I said several times, it was not because we as Messianics are bound to everything laid down by the Rabbis of the 1st and 2nd centuries. It was because it gave us the opportunity to look for the wisdom in what they said, discuss how or even if their rulings are applicable today, and even rewrite some to work in contemporary Messianic society. Not that what we come up with would have any authority. But where most of us have no authority to go to for help, possibly some of the mitzvoth we discussed might help. Many of those would never be kept by the modern Messianic community at large. Doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of wisdom and thought that went into each mitzvah. And many of them are absolutely still applicable and binding, no question about it!
I abandoned the project because there were people who couldn't get past the idea I was putting them up as absolute law. We lost at least one, and I suspect another poster because they thought those mitzvoth were too Jewish. One wanted to do it his way, and could brook no ideas that went counter to what he wanted to do. Unfortunately he was bound to take others along with him, convincing them to abandon the Jewishness of Messianic Judaism and just obey the laws he thought were applicable. In this case, I think there was a lot of latent anti-Semitism coming out as well as a stubborn streak that was arrogant enough he was going to tell God how he would worship Him; and enough insecurity that he had to convince others to follow his example. Honestly, people like that would be better off going back to mainC and dabbling in Hebrew Roots to assuage their guilt over disobeying the truth as God showed them.
Yes, fences are a Jewish phenomenon, and many are outdated, some wrong, and at times they went to far. Fortunately we here at Ahavat Elohim are not Rabbinical Messianics. We keep what applies, modify what needs it, and discard what doesn't help. And there is no one checking to see what fences or even what commandments you keep. If you post a problem with any of this we are here to help, not to judge where you are at in becoming Observant. We will however make judgments on whether there is a commandment applicable to your situation. This can only be seen as helpful to one who truly wants to become obedient. We may even judge there is a fence which might help or even might be necessary. Again, this is only helpful. We suggest halacha, as only R Reuel is competent to make halacha, and then only for his congregation. But in the end you alone are responsible for your walk with God.
I'm just suggesting we stop looking at fences as a burden and maybe view them as an aid in not transgressing . And yes, I need to take this attitude more myself. I can get pretty lax at times; others when due to medical conditions compounded by medicines I am pretty well out of it and I could uses a good fence or two to trip over before I actually transgress.
Dan (almost needs to be caged at times) C
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- there are 70 faces to 
). Everyone has their own codes which you should not transgress if you wish to fellowship there. Just some are easier to see, to codify and to deal with.
