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Post by jimmie on Dec 11, 2014 10:59:33 GMT -8
I Samuel 14 gives the story of a fence around a law of God.
The Law: Avenge the Philistines for the wrongs inflicted upon Israel.
The Fence: No man should eat until the avenging has taken place.
The result of disobeying the fence: A godly man –Jonathan- is placed under the death sentence.
The result of obeying the fence: The people did eat the spoils with the blood. A clear breach of a Law of God not related to the fence or the law it was to protect.
Genesis 3 records the original fence around a law of God.
The Law: don’t eat of the tree of knowledge.
The fence: Don’t touch the tree.
The result: Sin and death entered the world.
I wonder if this may be why Jesus said, “The traditions (fences) of man make the laws of God of no affect.”
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Post by alon on Dec 11, 2014 14:04:06 GMT -8
I Samuel 14 gives the story of a fence around a law of God. The Law: Avenge the Philistines for the wrongs inflicted upon Israel. The Fence: No man should eat until the avenging has taken place. The result of disobeying the fence: A godly man –Jonathan- is placed under the death sentence. The result of obeying the fence: The people did eat the spoils with the blood. A clear breach of a Law of God not related to the fence or the law it was to protect.
The problem here was a King who uttered an ill conceived curse, NOT a fence.
1 Sam 14:24 Isra'el's soldiers had been driven to exhaustion that day; but Sha'ul issued this warning to the people: "A curse on any man who eats any food until evening, when I will have finished taking vengeance on my enemies." So none of the people even tasted food.
Notice this supposed "law" had a definite limit- until evening; and it was Sha'ul's vengeance not God's. And it was a curse; and curses are not fences!
You also failed to mention that Jonathan was reprieved; he wasn't killed.
That the men sinned in eating bloody meat was the result of the rash curse, spoken without considering the consequences or the effect it would have on his men. Also it was due to their lack of discipline, as even after fighting all day no one is going to starve going without food for a day. If their lives would have really been in danger there would have been no sin as preservation of life is a higher mitzvah. Sin and death entered the world because they violated both the fence and the commandment. It wasn't the fault of the fence, it was the wilful disobedience of Adam and Chava. That by the way is why Jonathan was reprieved- for sin to occur there must be knowledge as well as willful disobedience. He did not know of the curse. Adam did know what he was doing.
Saying that the fence around the commandment not to eat of the tree was the cause of the "original sin" is like blaming the high railings the Nat'l Parks put at overlooks when some idiot climbs over and jumps!Once again you take something completely out of context and wrongfully use it to make a point.
Mark 7:5 The P'rushim and the  -teachers asked him, "Why don't your talmidim live in accordance with the Tradition of the Elders, but instead eat with ritually unclean hands?" 6 Yeshua answered them, "Yesha`yahu was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites -- as it is written, `These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. 7 Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were doctrines.' 8 "You depart from God's command and hold onto human tradition. Indeed," 9 he said to them, "you have made a fine art of departing from God's command in order to keep your tradition! 10 For Moshe said, `Honor your father and your mother,' and `Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say, `If someone says to his father or mother, "I have promised as a korban" ' " (that is, as a gift to God) " ` "what I might have used to help you," ' 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus, with your tradition which you had handed down to you, you nullify the Word of God!
There was no fence involved here. They were upset because the talmedim of Yeshua didn't perform n'telat yadayim the way they thought it should be done (actually they were just slinging mud in case they could make Yeshua look dirty as they well knew that different schools did it differently). Furthermore the tradition Yeshua spoke about had nothing to do with a fence; it was about defrauding God by twisted thought processes. Like they could outthink God!
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 11, 2014 15:13:09 GMT -8
Have you ever tended a tree with out touching it?
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Post by alon on Dec 11, 2014 15:32:39 GMT -8
Let's talk about these "traditions" (hopefully without hijacking the thread).
But note: while fences may be traditions, all traditions are not fences, and every injunction is not a law, nor is everything pertaining to any decree or law a fence! And only those traditions that contradicted the Word or were Pagan in origin were ever condemned.
2 Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
So Rav Sha'ul speaks of traditions as though they are good things; things he wants us to hold to.
Yeshua also observed many traditions:
Luke 4:16 "Now when he went to Natzeret, where he had been brought up, on Shabbat he went to the synagogue as usual. He stood up to read,"
John 10:22 "22-23 Then came Hanukkah in Yerushalayim. It was winter, and Yeshua was walking around inside the Temple area, in Shlomo's Colonnade.
Yeshua never condemned all traditions; nor did any of the writers of the Kethuvai Shelachim.
Usually when we hear the argument that the "New Testament" does away with or condemns "man-made traditions", they really mean “Jewish traditions”! "We don'wanna keep no Joo'sh tr'dishuns!"
OK, don't; you are excused. By the authority vested in me (which is no authority at all), if it makes anyone feel better, I officially declare anyone who does not want to keep Jewish traditions exonerated, held blameless because they didn't hold to those pesky traditions!
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Seal of the Exalted (in his own mind) Dan
Ahhhh, it just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to help folks out like that!!!
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Post by alon on Dec 11, 2014 15:59:38 GMT -8
Have you ever tended a tree with out touching it?
"Thou shalt not kick thine dog because thou hadst a bad day at work." Law.
Thine dog hast a spiked collar, and thine wife maketh tou to pullet off thine shoes from off'n thine oversized feet when entering thine house. Fences.
The dog exists, and he lives in your house. You have to groom and care for him, and sometimes pet him. But when one day the spikes tear up your instep and the dog bites your toes it is obviously the fences fault you kicked the dog, thus transgressing your spouse's law. But the fences do work, since for a while you'll be too sore to kick the dog again. And my opinion, you danged well deserved what you got anyhow, you meanie! The law is just! 
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Dec 12, 2014 15:12:54 GMT -8
The law is just. Fences just ai'nt. It is plain hard to tell if a fence is ment to keep someone in or someone out. I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are on.
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Post by alon on Dec 12, 2014 18:17:43 GMT -8
In this case, it is our heart attitude that determines what side of the fence we are on. It is our attitude towards God's instructions that determines how much we want to push against that line where we violate . And it is our own heart knowledge that we are flirting with sin and don't want to give that up which makes us so vocal when others do observe fences. Living holy is often all it takes to convict others.
We all probably struggle some with the idea we were raised with as Christians that it was our birthright to live right on that line between sin and being set apart for HaShem. That's what GRACE was for- because when you live right on that line you just can't help but cross it. We were all taught that we just can't help but sin; but it's OK because we got GRACE!
The fence just moves the line away from sin and gives you some room to err, yet still not cross the line into sin. The fence is actually freedom. A good example- it's Shabbat, and I observed the 1/2 hr. fence, a fence that I imposed on myself. I had some things I needed to get done, and since I'd timed them for my half hour leeway it was no big deal when I didn't quite make the deadline. Had I been living on that line, pushing things right up to dark, I'd have entered this Shabbat in a state of agitation, and probably would have been in violation. But I am happy to report neither was the case. The fence is no big imposition, and in fact is a huge help just on my stress level alone!
Do I observe fences on everything? No, but like everyone here I am still working on it. I'm just suggesting that as we learn to walk out our faith as Messianic believers, we might want to consider where fences might help. We might want to change our attitudes, imposed on us by Christian dogma and license, where fences are concerned.
If you can show me any REAL injunctions against fences, or even where they cause harm other than the injunction against making it overly difficult with too many or too restrictive fences, then I'll reconsider. But what you've showed so far is a frantic, knee-jerk reaction to a suggestion that we try something that has helped Jews remain set apart for millennia.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 13, 2014 16:41:29 GMT -8
Regarding the fences, I also think we have to remember that the consequences for compromising the were very tangible for much of Jewish history. I can see where a "better safe than sorry" approach made a lot of sense.
Also, regarding how we as Messianic believers observe the , .... maybe we are laying up the unnecessary burdens this time. Are we making it harder for Jewish people to come to Yeshua by picking on the way they do things? If going without cheese on my turkey sandwich makes that the slightest bit easier, than no cheese for me. Maybe that's a trite example, but maybe that's how trite we can sometimes be. I don't know. I am just trying to put myself in their shoes. Jewish people have enough to have to sort through, enough to have to go through, enough to loose for the sake of Yeshua. If keeping a commandment that is not contrary to helps them hold onto their identity and makes their life a little easier, then lets focus on the commandments to love one another and "not to strive over words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearer" . 2 Timothy 2:14.
Garrett, I really liked reading over your posts. Thanks for sharing. You offer a great perspective. I agree about the weirdness of so many Messianic congregations. I will say, however, that the spirit is very present and real for believers of Yeshua. In that regard, maybe the synagogue you go to is not always be the most accurate measure. I also agree with Alon, to be careful about not being open about your belief in Yeshua. I know opening up is easy for me to say and hard for you to do, but maybe that's exactly why you are there. Prayers for you and yours!
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Post by alon on Dec 13, 2014 19:26:37 GMT -8
Regarding the fences, I also think we have to remember that the consequences for compromising the were very tangible for much of Jewish history. I can see where a "better safe than sorry" approach made a lot of sense.
Not that they downplay the individual's responsibility for his own sins. They just realize, as we need to also, that sin effects everyone. There is no such thing as victimless sin. I think another Christian idea we as Messianics need to disabuse ourselves of is that Jews need to convert. They do not- they are already Jews, so what is it they need to convert to?
WE need to convert! The name of our faith is Messianic Judaism. All they need to do is to accept Yeshua as Ha Moshiach, then we need to humble ourselves and learn from them! Does that mean they have nothing to learn from us? No, but we do need to get past the idea that they have everything to learn from us and we nothing from them. We have far more to learn from them than they do from us.
Let's just get down to brass tacks: Until we converted to Messianic Judaism, we were pagans. It is just that simple. Biblically, there are only two types of people- Jews and pagans. "Goyim"- of the nations, pagan. So for most of us, until fairly recently we were goyim. They've been Jews for over 3500 years. So who has more to learn, and from who (whom?)?
We do however hold the most important truth, and that is that Yeshua was and is HaMoshiach, the Redeemer of Yisra'el, fully God and fully man; He died, was buried and then was resurrected the third day. In Him was all the Messianic prophecies fulfilled. So I am not saying we should all run over to the nearest Jewish synagogue and convert. But we do need to approach the whole issue of conversion with a lot more humility, especially since we have the most converting to do. And that, I think, will go a lot farther to witness to the Jewish people than any list of mitzvoth, fences, or rules we could come up with.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 13, 2014 20:11:21 GMT -8
To continue this line of thought, Rav S did a short d'rash on this today.
Luke 5:36b "No one tears a piece from a new coat and puts it on an old one; if he does, not only will the new one continue to rip, but the piece from the new will not match the old."
Yeshua is saying here that we all need to let go of our old ideas when we come to Him. We need to let go of a lot of our old traditions. I've said many times here that when we come to Messianism we question everything! We pass every idea and belief through the fire, and keep only what is not destroyed. And this is an ongoing process.
is eternal, it is truth. We do not abandon that. So is the rest of scripture. But it is against that all scripture must be interpreted, and those ideas and teachings from our past that do not match up with are false interpretations. So we keep the feasts, not Christmas, Easter, et all. But are all traditions bad? Thanksgiving does not violate , and when kept in its intended spirit is a very good thing to do. So obviously we need to learn to use discernment; and that too is an ongoing process.
On the Jewish side, many of the mitzvoth they have learned to keep should be modified or done away with. Those that place undue burdens on people, or that serve no purpose other than to control every waking moment of a persons life should go. However these mitzvoth, some of which are actual commandments and others fences, are not all bad. We need to learn to look at these differently ourselves. Both Jew and convert (that's us) need to learn to use discernment regarding fences; and of course we all need to obey the outright commandments.
Luke 5:37-38 "Also, no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and be spilled, and the skins too will be ruined. On the contrary, new wine must be put into freshly prepared wineskins."
A wineskin was the stomach of some animal, usually a goat. When wine was put in them, it usually kept fermenting and gasses were released. Since the skin was tied airtight, this could be a problem. A new skin was elastic enough to deal with this, but a used skin had lost its elasticity. So putting new wine in an old skin could be disastrous- not to mention messy. This is what happens when either party, Jews or Gentile converts, refuse to give up their old ideas, insisting the other side change everything to agree with them. First off a lot of gas is given off. Then due to the inflexibility of all concerned, their skin breaks, and there is a mess for all to see.
Worse yet, wine stains, so the evidence of their foolishness and failure is there as an example for others who might consider believing anything so ridiculous as the dead being raised, even by God.
Luke 5:39 "Besides that, after drinking old wine, people don't want new; because they say, `The old is good enough.'"
People don't like change. Change is hard, especially when it is our belief systems that are being changed. It is always too easy to just go back to what was comfortable, leaving the truth we've been shown behind. Many who come here are stuck in that old system, refusing to yield and become fully Messianic. Given time we can hope they relent and take the plunge. Many others are working to or through this right now. I pray for everyone here that they will succeed. But it isn't easy, and it isn't comfortable either. It is a lifelong work in progress for all of us- especially for us Gentile converts.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Dec 15, 2014 7:02:34 GMT -8
Also, regarding how we as Messianic believers observe the , .... maybe we are laying up the unnecessary burdens this time. Are we making it harder for Jewish people to come to Yeshua by picking on the way they do things? If going without cheese on my turkey sandwich makes that the slightest bit easier, than no cheese for me. Maybe that's a trite example, but maybe that's how trite we can sometimes be. I don't know. I am just trying to put myself in their shoes. Jewish people have enough to have to sort through, enough to have to go through, enough to loose for the sake of Yeshua. If keeping a commandment that is not contrary to helps them hold onto their identity and makes their life a little easier, then lets focus on the commandments to love one another and "not to strive over words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearer" . 2 Timothy 2:14. Yes! A fence that I can live with. I can and have restricted my freedoms in order not to offend someone. |
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Post by garrett on Dec 21, 2014 17:38:42 GMT -8
To Elizabeth, Thanks for your feedback. (And everyone else too). I guess it's a little reassuring to hear at least one person mention some of the "weirdness" that can take place within some Messianic congregations. My intention is not to tear anyone down or belittle people, I just find it very uncomfortable in such a setting. It reminds me of being in a charismatic church service .....where things boil down to the only obvious difference is that I'm among people wearing yarmulkes, eating bagels and being "really into Israel and Jewish people." I hope that's not too harsh but I don't know how else to say it. That's why I stopped going to the one I attended and spend more time at an orthodox synagogue. You said, "the spirit is very present and real for believers in Yeshua." I'm not really sure what that means. I'm not good at taking someone else's experiences (regarding the spiritual) for my own life. It's because I'm not there. I've never been one to get too many goosebumps or see any burning bushes  . I've believed in G-d my whole life (I've doubted, mistrusted, stablized, etc.). I am open to speak about the Messiah in any orthodox circles but this is not an easy thing we're dealing with. In a kind, loving, but tough way I would go toe-to-toe with a sincere and respectful man who is open to hearing about what G-d has done. I also trust my gut quite well and know when there is a time to speak. The folks that I know from the shul are aware that I was not raised in Judaism so I know I'm seen as a bit of an "outsider" anyways, which is a position I think I prefer to be in. At least they wouldn't think I've been "brainwashed" out of the faith. A lot of folks know that I was raised in churches too...which is funny. I think praying for people is the most important thing while I'm around them. I don't "hide it under a bush". I actually think it's written on my face. When I'm standing around a few hundred men on a Saturday......they almost look at me like I'm holding a sign that says, "I Believe In Yehoshua as the Moshiach". I can't really explain it. I hope you are well. Thank you for your prayers. |
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Post by garrett on Dec 21, 2014 17:46:52 GMT -8
I forgot to mention - it's even more amusing to tell folks in the orthodox circles that I was raised in churches AND discovered Hebrew in my Mom's family while far into my adulthood!  |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 22, 2014 9:34:29 GMT -8
I hadn't had any real experience of the Holy Spirit either until beginning my search into Messianic Judaism.
I started out with a study in the book of Matthew. To make a long story short, I just prayed to be able to worship Yeshua like he is King here and now. I had no congregation I could identify with, and up until that point, Yeshua had always just seemed like my friend. It was a whole new and wonderful way of seeing Him.
At the same time, I refused to dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit as described in scriptures because I had a new respect for the word and power of G-d. Again, I just prayed for G-d to show me what He meant and what the role of the Holy Spirit should be in my life.
He did, and though I test the spirits, I try not to limit His Spirit. Truly, I am only able to worship Him because of His Spirit as I have no congregation. He gave me a way to worship Him in spite of having no fellowship or synagogue through His Spirit.
As a side note of praise....
by containing me at home while making His Spirit within me uncontainable, G-d has caused me to witness to my husband while not trespassing the role of being a wife. It is G-d who took the lead and He is the one doing all the convincing. I can just focus on being a wife and mother according to His will. I love His wisdom and way!
Anyway, just encouraging you to ask for G-d's Spirit because I could identify a little with what you are saying and know how close G-d wants to be. I also think you are unusually brave to have found your way to where you are, and want you to have all the support available to you. 
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Post by garrett on Dec 27, 2014 19:51:42 GMT -8
Out of curiosity - to those who have contributed to this topic and to those who may have just followed the discussion:
Would any or all of you be willing to mention if you take the opportunity to keep the Sabbath (in whatever best way you conceivably can)? I would love to know who does so, what are a few fundamental things you adhere to (because of the "special-ness" of the day)and how you feel as the week leads up to Shabbos. Just as importantly, I'd be interested to know how you feel when Sabbath ends.
Some form of halacha is kept throughout each person's 24 hour period, on G-d's day. What is it like for you before and after? (and during!)
I think it would be great to know, especially since so many of us are in a peculiar and sometimes isolated scenario.
G-d bless you.
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- there are 70 faces to 
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. I've believed in G-d my whole life (I've doubted, mistrusted, stablized, etc.).
