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Post by Questor on Oct 12, 2014 1:17:07 GMT -8
Before the first Messianic Synagogues, a pagan could be subsumed within the other, greater society of Judaism he was joining. Dropping a pagan idol or two for another 'G-d' called YHVH was acceptable...odd behaviour, perhaps, but acceptable, because the Greco-Romans viewed godhood very differently than we do. Judaism as a religion used to be honourable within the Greco-Roman society, even envied by some. Jews were perhaps seen as odd, for not accepting the Dualism of the pagans, but honoured none-the-less for their wisdom, and their knowledge, and their success at living. And one or two pagans converting to another religion was not threatening. Jews very rarely persecuted anyone else for not being Jewish, particularly outside of Palestine...they mostly ignored them.
Then Yehoshua offered the salvation of the Jews to anyone who would. The mostly ignored little country of Israel suddenly became a stumbling block to all nations, and all people, because Yehoshua meant to bring division, and instigate change. Prophetically speaking, time was up. Everything changed, and is still changing...Messianic Believers are merely aware of the change in progress, and some are very much aware. Prophetically, the time is up again.
It is a rare idea to most Christian Churches, and most Christians, who still flinch at the word Jew, and are flustered at the idea of having to wear a gold star on their coat, to think of being actually Jewish...to have all that tradition and solemnity and pervading seperateness in your life, along with the ever present threat of persecution for being seperate.
Seperation is threatening.
Israel was created by G-d in the idea of seperateness...holiness...to show the world, the universe, that man cannot do life at all well. The  is a set of rules that draw a line between holy and unholy, and create a requirement to choose sides. Most Jews have their profession as Jews made for them by their parents.
Jews cannot be non-Jewish, even when they convert to different religions, such as Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Communism, or Christianity. Only Islam even has the idea that a religion can go along with your parentage. Christians, regardless of the last 70 years, have always known that a Jew is a Jew not just religiously, but to the bone, because Abba meant it to be so.
Consequently, here is a grimness in Judaism that non-Jews probably do not perceive very often, or at the least, don't admit to, for non-Jews rarely seem to recall that the nation of Israel was designed by G-d to be a thorn in the side of the remainder of the world. Jews are always aware of this problem. Israel is still a thorn, and time is pretty much up...again.
How much longer does this world continue as it is? Probably longer than we think, for YHVH is a patient G-d, but Messianic Believers are very aware that time is up. Jews that become Messianicly minded know that time is up too, or they would not be aware of the prophecies that draw them to Messianic Belief. Christians and other Pagans are becoming aware of the need for Observance despite the knowledge of Grace. Jews, reluctantly, are having their eyes opened <b><i>as G-d permits</I></b> to see Pagan and Christian Gentiles turn to the . Those Jews that do not recognize Yehoshua as Mashiach are all the same more and more calling for Mashiach, and Mashiach will come because the Jews are finally calling out for Mashiach to come.
The Notsrim came to be in the midst of great persecution, and dwindled into a larger, lesser movement called Christianity that hated it's separateness, and chose to be less Jewish to be less separate. Once less separate, and less persecuted thereby, they themselves became the persecutors of the Jews. Nearly two thousand years have passed, and Christianity is going to dwindle into the Notsrim again...amidst persecution, and may even be accepted by their Jewish Brethren despite their Messianic Beliefs because that persecution is going to be against seperateness.
As the time of Yehoshua's return draws nearer I have no doubt that the is going to be what seperates those that follow the Deceiver, and those that do not. It will probably not be a matter of degree of outward observance, either...just adherence to the first four commandments. Messianic Believers should be adhering to as the Ruach haKodesh draws them to, as observance it is not a mandatory requirement for Gentiles, but they should be very aware of the cost of their salvation. The Jews already are.
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Post by alon on Oct 12, 2014 3:21:11 GMT -8
Before the first Messianic Synagogues, a pagan could be subsumed within the other, greater society of Judaism he was joining. Dropping a pagan idol or two for another 'G-d' called YHVH was acceptable...odd behaviour, perhaps, but acceptable, because the Greco-Romans viewed godhood very differently than we do. Judaism as a religion used to be honourable within the Greco-Roman society, even envied by some. Jews were perhaps seen as odd, for not accepting the Dualism of the pagans, but honoured none-the-less for their wisdom, and their knowledge, and their success at living. And one or two pagans converting to another religion was not threatening. Jews very rarely persecuted anyone else for not being Jewish, particularly outside of Palestine...they mostly ignored them.
Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Nowhere are Gentiles given ANY exemptions from doing what God says. Nowhere! Nowhere except in seminaries and churches constructed brick by brick and lie by lie by men. But never by God.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Oct 12, 2014 7:38:10 GMT -8
Most of this seems to be predicated on the mainC teaching that the Nots'rim had to of either been subsumed by one or the other group- Christianity or the Jews. Because to them we were the ones that were wrong. As Jews they hated us and virulently hated our "heresies" in keeping the "Old Testament laws". But as believers they have a need to look back and say we came to our senses and joined our local Catholic church. They desperately needed to validate their doctrine of "Apostolic Succession" which they say allowed them to change God's laws. If at least some of us didn't defect, then their heresies stand exposed as the frauds they are.
The Nots'rim did not defect to either camp; and the catholic (universal)church are frauds and liars, and so is their offspring the evangelical church.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Oct 13, 2014 23:03:05 GMT -8
Most of this seems to be predicated on the mainC teaching that the Nots'rim had to of either been subsumed by one or the other group- Christianity or the Jews. Because to them we were the ones that were wrong. As Jews they hated us and virulently hated our "heresies" in keeping the "Old Testament laws". But as believers they have a need to look back and say we came to our senses and joined our local Catholic church. They desperately needed to validate their doctrine of "Apostolic Succession" which they say allowed them to change God's laws. If at least some of us didn't defect, then their heresies stand exposed as the frauds they are.
The Nots'rim did not defect to either camp; and they are frauds and liars, and so is their offspring the evangelical church.
Dan C
Actually, I was talking about the odd pagan being subsumed by Israel prior to Yehoshua's death...as in a Ger Tsaddik.
observance is thus suggested by James the Just in Acts 15, but not mandated…or he would have said so.
No one hints around like that, particularly not when issuing a formal decree.
Fortunately, Yehoshua’s brother did not forbid the Gentiles from Observance either, though I daresay he might have expected someone so committed to YHVH as to be Observant to be circumcised as well, and officially welcomed into the Hebraic Family. For those not circumcised at birth, as most people are in the US, or on the Eighth Day, as it is for most Jews, circumcision was always the main hindrance for the Ger Toshav. It still is, to many, but to me it is the complete change of Identity that is required to really be adopted into Israel, as opposed to being grafted into her.
Just as Messianic Jews and Rabbinical Jews deserve to have a little privacy in their own synagogues amongst their own people if that is what they wish, I deserve to have my identity as an Anglo-Saxon not be stomped on as if it was something unclean.
I have never belonged to a church, nor to a pagan temple, nor worshiped anyone but YHVH, whether as Creator, Son or Holy Spirit (being all part of the same Person). I did learn the Greek word Christos before I learned the Hebrew word Mashiach, but that doesn’t make me obligated to pick up a covenant that has never been required of me.
The Ruach haKodesh has not yet asked me to do more than I do now, probably because I am still so bad at it that going deeper might just trip me up…carrying the heritage of my family is bad enough without adding 3500 years of someone else’s heritage to my personal burden.
Besides, if no Gentiles cling to G-d as Gentiles, and yet are obedient to to the extent that falls to their interest, capability, and opportunity, how can Israel ever be brought back to her former position with G-d?
The Prophecies require that G-d loving Gentiles not only spur Jews to uniform Observance, but assist Israel back into her appropriate place of spiritual and physical precedence with G-d and man as is deserved for holding the Oracles of G-d, AND still be Gentiles to be inherited by Yehoshua.
I like being valuable enough to G-d to be considered an added bonus to be given to the Saviour of Israel for His painful efforts in redeeming her…and thus me.
I have no problems with separating from the world...I am darned near as alone as I can get, but for G-d. I will readily die for this, and have been preparing to since 2006, when I realized it would be necessary for many a Believer in Yehoshua.
I do not have to pick up the Covenant to live or die for Yehoshua, or to be as Observant as I can be as a Gentile, or to be saved as a Gentile, so why do you keep saying that Observance is MANDATORY?
I am Observant because I want to be, not because I agreed to be.
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Post by Questor on Oct 13, 2014 23:20:34 GMT -8
NO! observance is a requirement for EVERYONE! Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Nowhere are Gentiles given ANY exemptions from doing what God says. Nowhere! Nowhere except in seminaries and churches constructed brick by brick and lie by lie by men. But never by God.
Dan C
Matthew 16:17-19 (CJB)
17 “Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan,” Yeshua said to him, “how blessed you are! For no human being revealed this to you, no, it was my Father in heaven.
18 I also tell you this: you are Kefa,” [which means ‘Rock,’] “and on this rock I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.” |
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Post by alon on Oct 14, 2014 2:45:59 GMT -8
Actually, I was talking about the odd pagan being subsumed by Israel prior to Yehoshua's death...as in a Ger Tsaddik.
I've also said I am not completely TO yet. I still learn of things I need to change, or learn about how to do things I new I needed but didn't have adequate instruction in. For example, do you have a Honey Bear in your kitchen cabinets? I do, and I need to find a way to get rid of it without angering my wife who buys the things. I am also in the process of throwing out hundreds of dollars worth of leather stamps, templates, cases and knife sheaths because as a pagan leatherworker I had it all! But the stamps are graven and the images they make are as well. So am I completely TO? Not yet. Am I trying? Yes, but it ain't easy. Especially giving up valuable things I used to love, and which I made money off of. But keeping even one once it is brought to my attention would be sin.
Just as bad anything with USMC insignia or NRA logo's had to go because both had the image of an eagle on them. Those are institutions which mean something to me. But which is more important than God's Word? So I'm not suggesting anyone do anything I'm not willing to do myself. Nor am I telling anyone what to do. But whenever I tell anyone what God said I don't water it down either. And He said one for everyone.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Oct 14, 2014 2:52:03 GMT -8
Yehoshua is not G-d? Really
For the record, He is, always was (and I mean ALWAYS, as in eternity past), and forever will be God; One with the Father, even as a man.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Oct 14, 2014 3:17:57 GMT -8
Jews may be genetically Jewish, but spiritually if they denounce Judaism they are dead to Judaism and to God's purpose for their lives; just as we are if we renounce Judaism. You don't have to become Jewish to be saved, but true salvation will draw you to a Jewish bent. You may only ever become ger toshav, a God Fearer. But those people did live by Mosaic law, keeping almost entirely.
Your circumstances are different, and I've said before I understand. It's hard to take on what you have no example of. But still you keep what you can, and so it is incongruous for you to say observance is not necessary. It is to the extent you can. Deu 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Oct 14, 2014 22:38:22 GMT -8
Jews may be genetically Jewish, but spiritually if they denounce Judaism they are dead to Judaism and to God's purpose for their lives; just as we are if we renounce Judaism. You don't have to become Jewish to be saved, but true salvation will draw you to a Jewish bent. You may only ever become ger toshav, a God Fearer. But those people did live by Mosaic law, keeping almost entirely.
Your circumstances are different, and I've said before I understand. It's hard to take on what you have no example of. But still you keep what you can, and so it is incongruous for you to say observance is not necessary. It is to the extent you can. Deu 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.Dan C
Keeping all of is not just about keeping commandments...it is about separation into a special, holy people to G-d that has a specific object in view in demonstrating how badly man keeps , and that automatically reveals the inability of man to keep .
The seperation of the Israelites to be a special people is made within the Covenant at Sinai, and includes circumcision as a mark of accepting the burden of carrying the oracles of G-d. Salvation for the Jews was in Abraham, as our is in Yehoshua through the promises made to Abraham.
If you tell any Gentile that all of the is required, and mandatory, then so is circumcision, and the picking up of the burden of carrying the Oracles, and proving the inevitable existence of sin in man to all the world.
If the Jerusalem Council had stated that all Gentiles must become circumcised Jews in the future, and pick up the burden of ALL of the by agreeing to the Sinai Covenant, as opposed to a specified and minimal mandatory set of rules, and the growing knowledge as could be learned by attending a synagogue, the Jerusalem counsel would have said so. And they did not, thus all of is not mandatory, as it would be if a Gentile agreed to the Sinai Covenant.
I am making a very fine distinction here, as I think that Yehohsua meant for every Jew to remain obedient to G-d, but Yehoshua gave the power to Peter to loose and bind things on earth, evidently foreseeing difficulties such as Gentile inclusion in the promises through faith would come up. Thus Gentiles are not required to take on every iota of the , or it would have been in the Jerusalem Council decree.
You said that G-d never changed any of the . I agree to that as to how it applies to Jews, but Gentiles were never under the Sinai Covenant, and therefore Observance by Gentiles is a heart matter, not an obligation by covenanted agreement.
Gentiles have agreed to the New Covenant, which is not in force yet, and wherein all those who are Incorrupt in the Messianic Kingdom will have the written within them, because our hearts will be literally circumcised at that time, and the New Covenant includes all of the prior covenants back to Adam.
And to make the distinction between Jew and Gentile clearer, one might say Jews are required to be Obedient, while Gentiles are to be Observant, as we are to learn all we can, and observe Commandments as closely as we can, without any need for obeying the commandment to be circumcised, or to agree to be under the authority of Judaic Law, except as it applies in Israel.
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Post by Questor on Oct 14, 2014 22:51:18 GMT -8
Yehoshua is not G-d? Really
For the record, He is, always was (and I mean ALWAYS, as in eternity past), and forever will be God; One with the Father, even as a man.
Dan C
Nowhere are Gentiles given ANY exemptions from doing what God says. Nowhere! Nowhere except in seminaries and churches constructed brick by brick and lie by lie by men. But never by God.
Dan C
Yehoshua is not G-d? Really?
Matthew 16:17-19 (CJB)
17 “Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan,” Yeshua said to him, “how blessed you are! For no human being revealed this to you, no, it was my Father in heaven.
18 I also tell you this: you are Kefa,” [which means ‘Rock,’] “and on this rock I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”
Yehoshua gave Peter the ability to bind and loose on earth, and the Jerusalem Council, with Peter attending and lending support to the matter of the Jerusalem Council Decree re-interpreted how Gentiles were to be treated in regard to picking up the whole of the Sinai Covenant.
This does give an exemption to Gentiles from obeying all of as the Jews do, therefore, as Yehoshua is G-d, He gave Peter the power to dictate how was to applied to Believing Gentiles.
It didn't change as it applied to the Jews, but it changed how Gentiles were treated under the Sinai Covenant, as they were being granted an exemption from Circumcision, and the Agreement to keep all of the Sinai Covenant because they were grafted into Israel under the New Covenant which is not fully in force as yet.
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Post by Questor on Oct 14, 2014 23:09:12 GMT -8
Nowhere are Gentiles given ANY exemptions from doing what God says. Nowhere! Nowhere except in seminaries and churches constructed brick by brick and lie by lie by men. But never by God.
Dan C
Yehoshua is not G-d? Really?
Matthew 16:17-19 (CJB)
17 “Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan,” Yeshua said to him, “how blessed you are! For no human being revealed this to you, no, it was my Father in heaven.
18 I also tell you this: you are Kefa,” [which means ‘Rock,’] “and on this rock I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”
Posted by alon
20 hours ago
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Questor Avatar
23 hours ago Questor said:
Yehoshua is not G-d? Really
When or where did I ever say Yeshua was or is not God?
For the record, He is, always was (and I mean ALWAYS, as in eternity past), and forever will be God; One with the Father, even as a man.
Dan C
"You keep forgetting that Yehoshua changed a few things, and thus God does make minor adjustments where it does not touch His promises to the Jews, or the Gentiles. In fact, He changes things as needed in order to fulfil prophecies He has already given, such as just how the Gentiles would be saved in Abraham, which is by faith in Yehoshua, and yet stay separate from the Jews so that they could be an additional present to Yehoshua by Abba for redeeming Israel; helping Israel back to YHVH by making them jealous/zealous for the ; and working to get Israel into her place of precedence with G-d...all of which is in the prophecies. But there had to be a change in the treatment of Gentiles by Messianic Jews to enable Gentiles to stay Gentile, and still come alongside Israel in OBVSERVANCE.
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Post by Questor on Oct 14, 2014 23:11:53 GMT -8
Yehoshua gave Peter the ability to bind and loose on earth, and the Jerusalem Council, with Peter attending and lending support to the matter of the Jerusalem Council Decree re-interpreted how Gentiles were to be treated in regard to picking up the whole of the Sinai Covenant.
This does give an exemption to Gentiles from obeying all of as the Jews do, therefore, as Yehoshua is G-d, He gave Peter the power to dictate how was to applied to Believing Gentiles.
It didn't change as it applied to the Jews, but it changed how Gentiles were treated under the Sinai Covenant, as they were being granted an exemption from Circumcision, and the Agreement to keep all of the Sinai Covenant because they were grafted into Israel under the New Covenant which is not fully in force as yet.
Keeping all of is not just about keeping commandments...it is about separation into a special, holy people to G-d that has a specific object in view in demonstrating how badly man keeps , and that automatically reveals the inability of man to keep .
The seperation of the Israelites to be a special people is made within the Covenant at Sinai, and includes circumcision as a mark of accepting the burden of carrying the oracles of G-d. Salvation for the Jews was in Abraham, as our is in Yehoshua through the promises made to Abraham.
If you tell any Gentile that all of the is required, and mandatory, then so is circumcision, and the picking up of the burden of carrying the Oracles, and proving the inevitable existence of sin in man to all the world.
If the Jerusalem Council had stated that all Gentiles must become circumcised Jews in the future, and pick up the burden of ALL of the by agreeing to the Sinai Covenant, as opposed to a specified and minimal mandatory set of rules, and the growing knowledge as could be learned by attending a synagogue, the Jerusalem counsel would have said so. And they did not, thus all of is not mandatory, as it would be if a Gentile agreed to the Sinai Covenant.
I am making a very fine distinction here, as I think that Yehoshua meant for every Jew to remain obedient to G-d, but Yehoshua gave the power to Peter to loose and bind things on earth, evidently foreseeing difficulties such as the Gentile inclusion in the promises through faith that would come up. Thus Gentiles are not required to take on every iota of the , or it would have been in the Jerusalem Council decree.
You said that G-d never changed any of the . I agree to that as to how it applies to Jews, but Gentiles were never under the Sinai Covenant, and therefore Observance by Gentiles is a heart matter, not an obligation by covenanted agreement.
Gentiles have agreed to the New Covenant, which is not in force yet, and wherein all those who are Incorrupt in the Messianic Kingdom will have the written within them, because our hearts will be literally circumcised at that time, and the New Covenant, when in force, includes all of the prior covenants back to Adam.
And to make the distinction between Jew and Gentile clearer, one might say Jews are required to be Obedient, while Gentiles are to be Observant, as we are to learn all we can, and observe Commandments as closely as we can, without any need for obeying the commandment to be circumcised, or to agree to be under the authority of Judaic Law, except as it applies in Israel.
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Post by jimmie on Oct 15, 2014 5:27:04 GMT -8
You were right about circumcision being one great stumbling block to becoming completely TO. And that was a choice, not an insurmountable obstacle. But could I have done it if not already circ'd? Thankfully I don't have to find out on that one. Dan CI have two adult sons who have self-circumcised. I am having a hard time with this thread. One says that TO is not mandatory for gentiles, while the other says that gentiles should be TO if they can be. The following is a command that I have had trouble with. Deut 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, Since, I am a gentile is it okay that I desire my neighbours' wives? I don't seem to be able to stop desiring my neighbours' wives, will God overlook my sin because I am a gentile and can't help myself. Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end (the point aimed at as a limit) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. To be like Christ is my goal. He kept the law. So I will strive to like wise. |
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Post by alon on Oct 15, 2014 13:31:39 GMT -8
"You keep forgetting that Yehoshua changed a few things, and thus God does make minor adjustments where it does not touch His promises to the Jews, or the Gentiles. In fact, He changes things as needed in order to fulfil prophecies He has already given, such as just how the Gentiles would be saved in Abraham, which is by faith in Yehoshua, and yet stay separate from the Jews so that they could be an additional present to Yehoshua by Abba for redeeming Israel; helping Israel back to YHVH by making them jealous/zealous for the ; and working to get Israel into her place of precedence with G-d...all of which is in the prophecies. But there had to be a change in the treatment of Gentiles by Messianic Jews to enable Gentiles to stay Gentile, and still come alongside Israel in OBVSERVANCE.
Yeshua NEVER changed ANYTHING, and to say He did is tantamount to calling God a liar.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Acts 6:11 Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God." 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council. 13 They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us."
Nor was the Jerusalem council given the power to change; they only interpreted what was given to them.
Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
This was onla given as a MINIMUM requirement in order to fellowship with Not'srim. Not as all they had to do. Read on:
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Moses is a reference to . They were given a starting place, then told where to learn the rest.
Rabbi S has told us more than once that this is how Jewish children are taught. They are given a commandment, and when they are comfortable keeping that they are given another. Even in a Jewish home where these things are demonstrated all the time they don't just overwhelm the child with things they must do. They are brought along slowly. That is what is being said here, don't overwhelm the new proselytes; give them a starting place and then teach them slowly to observe the other mitzvoth. And this is exactly what happened when Rav Sha'ul and the delegation from this meeting carried the news to Antioch:
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." 30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32 Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message. 33 After they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out. 34 [But it seemed good to Silas to remain there.
So they did get further instruction. They were not just given the minimum and left to figure out the rest on their own. This is why I encourage people to do what they can to increase obedience one or two things at a time, as they are ready. And I would hope this forum could help and encourage each other.
The attitude you are taking is that of the church, where they say the apostolic line grants the Pope the right to change God's laws. In the line of reasoning you are taking now, Sunday worship, Christmas and Halloween are the law today. The New Testament is a Greek document and the Hollocaust was just retribution. Because if man, ANY MAN, including Rav Sha'ul or a council of leaders, could change God's laws, then we are still under the authority of men. God has abdicated His throne. And why not, because if Yeshua changed anything, if He ever spoke against even one mitzvah, then He sinned and our salvation is nullified.
If God doesn't change, then His mitzvoth are the same today as then. If God doesn't change, then Yeshua as God With Us couldn't change His own laws without contradicting Himself.
And while all the law, including circumcision is not dumped on anyone all at once, nor is it required for salvation, I believe that the more we become TO the more we will want it all. This includes circumcision. For one thing there are times when an uncircumcised male would be excluded from Messianic events. Passover is one, and this evening and tomorrow I am going to a service where they will be exluded as well. It is Hoshana Rabah and Sh'mini Atzaretz. No one likes to feel left out, especially on the good things of God. Jimmie went where I was headed with this- there are no unsurmountable obstacles to keeping , even circumcision!
Your carrying on at length about this issue sounds more like making excuses for doing it your way than it does honest searching of the Word. It is the same reasoning I am given by manC types all the time. It is the same reasoning everyone from the Catholic Church to Hitler used- we are under the rule of men, because God abdicated! To this I say NO! YHVH is still in charge, and His laws still stand. Yeshua confirmed this when He said ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Mat 5:18.
If you want to find a comfortable place and make a nest there that is your choice. But you cannot come here and say that is what is right and expect not to be challenged. This is a Observant website and we here are seeking Observance, not avoidance.
Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Oct 15, 2014 14:47:49 GMT -8
We seem to be talking past one another.
Where does it say in the that Gentiles must pick up the covenant at all, except to convert to Judaism?
No law in Israel ever demanded that Gentiles convert, and the does not require it now.
Thus, when you say all of is mandatory for all Believers, Jewish or Gentile, you are going far beyond .
Observance is not the Sinai Covenant, only an evidence of it, and the Israelites conditional behaviour to have life and blessing under the Sinai Covenant.
The Sinai Covenant is an agreement between G-d and the Israelites, and I am not an Israelite!
Being Obedient to G-d and to Yehohsua as a Gentile does not require any of us to be adopted into Israel!
I don't need to be circumcised...that was the normal procedure in every hospital at the time I was born, just as it was for you.
I also do not have to agree to the Sinai Covenant, and take on the burden and the special status with G-d unless I want to. I can happily be an ever more Observant Ger Toshav, and so can all other Messianic Believers that don't happen to have been born a Jew.
Being Yehoshua's disciple should cause us to want to be as much like Him as possible in everything that we do, but the Sinai Covenant was to separate the Israelites from the rest of the world, and make them into a special people.
The New Covenant, which includes the Sinai Covenant, in which I reside by faith, is not yet completely in existence, and just like a Jewish child, I am putting on the commandments and ordinances as fast as I can. I may not do them in the same manner as you do, but I am Observant, and plan to take on every commandment and observant that I can manage as a Gentile. But I have no interest in taking on Jewish status, and thus the Sinai Covenant, and their obligations under it.
I am speaking about the difference between full adoption into Judaism, and agreeing to the Sinai Covenant, and becoming obedient to as a Gentile. I do not need to take on the agreement to the Sinai Covenant at all in order to be obedient to G-d under the New Covenant as taught by Yehoshua, and the Ruach, which we have the deposit of the Ruach in us.
The Sinai Covenant was an agreement between YHVH and the Israelites for being G-d's special people, carrying the oracles of G-d, and being the test case for to reveal the sin of mankind. The commandments and ordinances in the are the conditions of the Sinai Covenant for blessings and cursings. Salvation for the Israelites was by faith in the promises given to Abraham. Salvation for all Israelites and Gentiles is still by faith in Yehoshua.
If you would simply stop saying that taking on all of the is mandatory for Gentiles when it is not, you would make a good deal more sense, and we could be taking about my original post, which was the cost of separation, and what it will mean to Jews and Gentiles in the near future.
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is a set of rules that draw a line between holy and unholy, and create a requirement to choose sides. Most Jews have their profession as Jews made for them by their parents. 
