The Cost of Seperation

[alon]

Where does it say in the that Gentiles must pick up the covenant at all, except to convert to Judaism? No law in Israel ever demanded that Gentiles convert, and the does not require it now. Thus, when you say all of is mandatory for all Believers, Jewish or Gentile, you are going far beyond .

Numbers 15: 16 for one; “'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.' "

Observance is not the Sinai Covenant, only an evidence of it, and the Israelites conditional behaviour to have life and blessing under the Sinai Covenant. The Sinai Covenant is an agreement between G-d and the Israelites, and I am not an Israelite!

There were Gentiles at the Sinai covenant. They accepted as well, and were grafted into Israel. And again;

Deuteronomy 29:10 "You stand today, all of you, before the LORD your God: your chiefs, your tribes, your elders and your officers, even all the men of Israel, 11 your little ones, your wives, and the alien who is within your camps, from the one who chops your wood to the one who draws your water, 12 that you may enter into the covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath which the LORD your God is making with you today, 13 in order that He may establish you today as His people and that He may be your God, just as He spoke to you and as He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 14 "Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath, 15 but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God and with those who are not with us here today"

Gentiles were included in the covenant! So were you, as one of those who was not there with them that day.

Being Obedient to G-d and to Yehohsua as a Gentile does not require any of us to be adopted into Israel!

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Romans 8: 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:4-6 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

We are saved by adoption; God adopts us. When you are adopted, you are part of a new family. What family are we made part of?

Ephesians 2:19-20 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Yeshua and the prophets were Jews. Your adoption is through the Jews, not through whatever family you choose. Not that you don't have free choice, but any other way than Gods' is damnation.

Rom 11:23-24 Speaking of the two olive trees, one wild (Gentile, pagan) and one cultivated (Israel): [/font]“And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?” You are either grafted into Israel, the family of God, or you are cut off- or you have the choice to remain on the wild/pagan tree. No other options were given.

I also do not have to agree to the Sinai Covenant, and take on the burden and the special status with G-d unless I want to. I can happily be an ever more Observant Ger Toshav, and so can all other Messianic Believers that don't happen to have been born a Jew.

You don’t have to do anything. However you are either Observant, or you are not. And you are either working towards Observance or you are not. There are no half measures. You either accept adoption into Isreal, or you do not. Plainly stated, you either accept God or reject Him. You, by the very fact that you ever came here and looked into Messianism, have been called out of the Christian church and its’ heresies. You either come out or you don’t. And the arguments you put forth here plainly say you haven’t fully accepted God’s call. They are the same argument that pastor after pastor have tried (unsuccessfully) to give me. The manner you put them forth, which is on the verge of railing, says you may be under conviction. So then my response is I’ll pray for you and reason with you; but I will not accept what you say and myself deny God.

Being Yehoshua's disciple should cause us to want to be as much like Him as possible in everything that we do, but the Sinai Covenant was to separate the Israelites from the rest of the world, and make them into a special people.

The New Covenant, which includes the Sinai Covenant, in which I reside by faith, is not yet completely in existence, and just like a Jewish child, I am putting on the commandments and ordinances as fast as I can. I may not do them in the same manner as you do, but I am Observant, and plan to take on every commandment and observant that I can manage as a Gentile. But I have no interest in taking on Jewish status, and thus the Sinai Covenant, and their obligations under it.

Then you have no part in God. He never gave you an exemption. You too are called to be separate and holy before the Lord.

1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

To be holy (Heb kadosh) is to be "set apart." Isn't this what you are saying did for Israel?

… If you would simply stop saying that taking on all of the is mandatory for Gentiles when it is not, you would make a good deal more sense, and we could be taking about my original post, which was the cost of separation, and what it will mean to Jews and Gentiles in the near future.

You are asking me to go against what God has said. You are asking me to accept your lie over God’s truth. My question to you is, if you so strongly believe this, why does it so aggravate you that I don’t agree? I would suggest it isn’t me but the Ruach HaChodesh that is unsettling your spirit.

And why, unless deep down you really want the truth, would you bring this argument to a Observant Messianic forum which, in its’ very statement of faith and rules of conduct disagree with what you are saying:

Rule # 1. This is a Messianic Observant forum for those who are Jewish, and also for those from the Nations, who are coming to know The Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). This forum is designed to be a place where sincere seekers may come and grow and learn more about a Messianic Jewish observant life …

So keep trying to take on Observance as you are able. Keep seeking. And if the Ruach is working on some part of your life, then I would suggest that you prayerfully and humbly yield. Ask for help or prayers and all here will gladly oblige you. But please, don't continue to argue that is not for Gentiles, or that Gentiles are not made part of Israel, adopted as Jews when they are saved. It won't get you anywhere. Come out of Babylon, the mainstream teachings you espouse here, and accept that you are adopted into the House of Israel, God's House. You are separated out, holy before God. And that carries with it some obligations.

You were blessed to receive a higher calling when you were first shown the errors of the church. But to deny that calling in whole or in part is a worse curse than if you'd stayed attached to the pagan tree in the first place.

Dan C

[Questor]

Oct 15, 2014 18:55:09 GMT -8 alon said:

Where does it say in the that Gentiles must pick up the covenant at all, except to convert to Judaism? No law in Israel ever demanded that Gentiles convert, and the does not require it now. Thus, when you say all of is mandatory for all Believers, Jewish or Gentile, you are going far beyond .

Numbers 15: 16 for one; “'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.' "

This, I think, the key point of the entire argument for mandatory Observance for Messianic Beleivers that are not Jews. One law and one ordinance works very well in a Jewish enclave of some kind, and anyone can live within the laws and ordinance of the country of Israel, if they happen to be there, amongst the Jews.

The law that was given in Numbers 15:16 was to the Israelites, about the gentiles among them, not to the Gentiles, about the Jews among them, or to Gentiles about their own behaviour outside of Israel. Jews have never required Gentiles to become Jews even to be in the land of Israel. Had I the ability, I could live in Israel now, most of the time, and just leave occasionally so that their current laws are observed by Gentiles.

I do not yet sojourn in Israel, nor even a representative body of Israel, nor do most Believers in Yehoshua. One law and one ordinance work well when the remainder of society is not Babylon. Coming out of Babylon by separating from her is not as difficult as it is to gain entry into Israel, where the law was meant to be in effect.

Becoming separate is the issue that I wanted to discuss, rather than taking up the Sinai Covenant by being adopted into Judaism, because they seem to me to be different things. Taking up the Sinai Covenant of the Israelites as a Jew...I have already told Abba that if He wants me to do so, I will. At the moment, Abba is not giving an answer to me on this question, nor is He evidently as concerned as you are about my Judaic status. However, I find that taking up the Sinai Covenant in the middle of Babylon to be rather beyond my ability to manage, particularly when the Jews do not want me to.

One cannot mandate a law for anyone that is not a part of the society generating the law, and this is why I want you to do what the Jerusalem Council did. The Jerusalem Council made it plain that Gentiles could remain Gentiles, and still obey G-d. The Jews then, and the Jews now, except for a handful of Messianic Jews, do not want a convert to Judaism to be a Believer in Yehoshua. They want converts to Judaism to become Orthodox Jews, and I will never take up Rabbinical viewpoints about the law regarding my trust in Yehoshua or much of anything else.

I cannot become a Jew in most Jews eyes, without disowning Yehoshua. Yet in Yehoshua I am spiritually adopted into the New Covenant, which contains the Sinai Covenant, but is not yet in place, even in Israel.

In addition, there is the question of taking up the Jewish Heritage instead of my own, which I value, even if most Jews might not. Some things do not translate well in the places outside of Israel.

The Sinai Covenant is an agreement between YHVH and the Israelites. The specific commandment given that you claim is mandatory for Gentiles, as I see it, is rather more mandatory for the Jews, and they are not obeying it, when it comes to those of us that would transplant themselves to Israel were it the Israel that Yehoshua will rule over.

One Law and one Ordinance do not work in the Diaspora, anymore than laws for the Cohanim work outside the Land of Israel, and not even there, without a Temple. It is like other laws that do not translate to the Diaspora, and thus are held in abeyance until Messiah comes.

I thus remain in a no-mans-land, taking on every commandment that I can, separating from Babylon in every way that I can, and not seeing how to take on the Sinai Covenant, because I do not live in the Land it applies to, nor am I a hereditary inheritor of the Land, much less the Sinai Covenant. Judaism is as much about the nation we belong to...a tribal matter, as it is a religious obligation. The Sinai Covenant cannot be picked up by me arbitrarily, and the Jews of Israel will not issue an admission ticket to the Covenant to me, no matter how observant I am, because I will not demote Yehoshua to a mere human Prophet long since dead and still in His grave...in their opinion.

This remains a problem that will not be solved without Yehoshua's presence, and His issuance of the New Covenant to whomsoever will has already been picked up by me. I am adding, and will add every commandment in the Scriptures to my daily pattern as soon as I can add them into the pattern of my life, but picking up the Sinai Covenant, when the Jews in total will not let me remains my main objection.

I cannot pick up the Sinai Covenant unless the Israeli's invite me to, and I don't see them doing that anytime before Yehoshua returns. Until then, I remain in the New Covenant, and in Yehoshua, and my obligation to the obedience to the Commandments and Laws within are that which are within my ability as a Non-Jew, and are all that is necessary.

This is the question that the Jerusalem Conference decree was getting at, in my view...the need for Gentiles to be accepted by all Jews within their own countries. Certainly obedience to is mandatory to the extent that it is able to be carried out, outside of Israel, and outside of the permission of the Israeli's.

In truth, you need to more specific about which laws of the are mandatory for Gentiles who do not live in Israel, nor among Observant Jews.

[alon]

First off, it isn't about what the Jews themselves want, it is about what God wants. Jews since Bar Kochba's defeat have been more concerned with a.) your not as a Messianic believer becoming Jewish, and b.) no Jews becoming "Christian". As you said, they don't even (for the most part) truly keep the covenant today anyhow. So we can leave the Jews out of this. This is about what God wants us to become.

Which brings us back to the Jerusalem Council. You adamantly stick to the point that they said Gentiles do not have to become fully Observant, nor do they have to become Jews. It doesn't matter that Gentiles were part of the covenant when it was given, you say. Prove it. Where does it say Gentiles are excused?

You claim this happened at the Jerusalem council, yet you haven't pointed to where it specifically says this. You claim that because they were just given four things this must be the case. This requires you ignore the next passage which says they were given additional instruction. It also would suggest that the rest of God's instruction is voided, including the Ten Commandments ... yet at the same time you say you are taking on as much of as you can. This sounds incongruous; why take on at all if God said Gentiles weren't supposed to? At best it is a waste of your effort; at worst it is sin- assuming you are correct.

But to be correct you must ignore the verses on our adoption. Or how about being called "heirs"? Gal 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." "Abraham's seed"- sounds pretty Jewish to me! Or what of Rav Sha'ul's talk of your being grafted onto the Hebrew rootstalk?

Look, I know it can be pretty overwhelming. But we've talked about this many times. No one, especially the One who matters (that'd be God) expects you to do more than you can. And thankfully that applies to me as well- I am still waiting on instruction on using Teffilin. It may never happen, and I'm OK with that. But it won't be because I didn't ask. There are many more things you, in your isolated status may never get. And we will BOTH make our share of mistakes. But God is both just and merciful. All He asks is that we try, and that we try our best to get it right.

That is what this forum is about; for those who have no other solid resource to come and try to get it right. I am fortunate to have this as well as limited access to a pretty knowledgeable Rabbi; and I'm willing to share what I can. But I am not willing to go against God's Word so that anyone can feel more comfortable where they are at. Especially when it is so unnecessary!

You don't have to be an "instant Jew," doing all they do and getting it right. God makes you Jewish by adoption when you are saved. Your task is just to keep improving, keep adding to your knowledge and practice as He reveals things to you. Walk in His so that you will not get cut off. In fact, all you need do that you are not already doing is to accept that you are adopted into God's family, Israel, whether the cousins like it or not! That's it! Just keep doing what you are doing and embrace your new heritage.

Dan C

[alon]

Moderator note: We are at an impasse here; but more than that this thread violates several sections of the Rules and the Statement of Faith. It is therefore time we stopped the discussion where it is in violation. In particular, it is not allowed to teach against observance for Gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua; nor is it allowed to teach that Messianic Judaism requires the acceptance of other Jewish sects to exist as Jews. The Rules and SoF can be found at

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2009/forum-rules-guidelines

I would appreciate everyone's cooperation. No other action other than this notice is being taken at this time. I'd prefer it be left that way.

We are a forum bound by rules. Forums I've been on which have no rules or enforcement tend to become sewers of competing ideologies and doctrines, which inevitably results in a lot of heat and hatred. And while we don't wish to be heavy handed, even moderators are bound by the rules. For me to continue this discussion would be to enable the teachings.

Thanks.

Dan C