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Post by 77finch on Aug 11, 2014 20:00:00 GMT -8
Thank you for the warm welcome! I'm not sure what exactly you mean by the Gospel of the Kingdom. Mormonism teaches that there is a Godhead not a Trinity. It is possible in Mormonism to become a God of your own world. Mormonism also teaches that nearly all will go to heaven but that there are 3 levels of heaven and your place depends on your works.
Admin Note: this thread was moved over from the meet and greet section at the request of the poster who initiated the topic.
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Post by 77finch on Aug 11, 2014 20:18:00 GMT -8
Ok Questor you seem to have laid it out for me! I should've read your post. The Mormons do try to keep a ulaw. But it isn't  . It is called the Words of Wisdom and a Mormon must keep these in order to gain access to their temples. To reach the highest heaven a Mormon must have access to the temple. It's really not Biblical at all although a Mormon would say it was biblical. Very confusing. |
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Post by Questor on Aug 12, 2014 0:30:27 GMT -8
Ok Questor you seem to have laid it out for me! I should've read your post. The Mormons do try to keep a law. But it isn't . It is called the Words of Wisdom and a Mormon must keep these in order to gain access to their temples. To reach the highest heaven a Mormon must have access to the temple. It's really not Biblical at all although a Mormon would say it was biblical. Very confusing.
Thank you for answering my very direct question.
All religion is confusing, at least to me. It is why I ask so many questions, and try to view everything through the lens of the Scriptures, and avoid the religion part, except to see how other people have experienced G-d in their initial belief system, and what they found was missing for them that led them to search farther to find G-d.
As for what I consider religion, that would be the special rules and regulations that divide one place of worship from another in the worship of YHVH. Denominations, and what their specific set of special beliefs are that divide them from other Believers, particularly those things written by men in discussion of the Scriptures, and then carved in stone for the generations that follow.
I find that G-d is very simplistic compared to what man wants of the Believers in G-d. G-d wants us to hear Him through the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit, love Him, have faith in Him and His promises, and trust and obey Him. Man seems to want other men to do as G-d has said, but to do everything the way that the men have described we are to do as to how we are to Love God, which tends to be contradictory, as men keep skipping away from the Scriptures. What man wants of man is very different from what Abba wants of us, blessed be His Name!
The Gospel of the Kingdom I mentioned is what Yehoshua introduced to the Jews at Nazareth, when He proclaimed that the Kingdom of G-d was at hand, as soon to come.
Luke 4:14-21 (CJB)
14 Yeshua returned to the Galil in the power of the Spirit, and reports about him spread throughout the countryside.
15 He taught in their synagogues, and everyone respected him.
16 Now when he went to Natzeret, where he had been brought up, on Shabbat he went to the synagogue as usual. He stood up to read,
17 and he was given the scroll of the prophet Yesha‘yahu. Unrolling the scroll, he found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of Adonai is upon me because he has anointed me to announce Good News to the poor; he has sent me to proclaim freedom for the imprisoned and renewed sight for the blind, to release those who have been crushed,
19 to proclaim a year of the favor of Adonai.”
20 After closing the scroll and returning it to the shammash, he sat down; and the eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on him.
21 He started to speak to them: “Today, as you heard it read, this passage of the Tanakh was fulfilled!”
In both Yochanan's and Yeshua's preaching (4:17) the reason for urgency to repent is that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. The concept of the Kingdom of God is crucial to understanding the Bible. It refers neither to a place nor to a time, but to a condition in which the rulership of God is acknowledged by humankind, a condition in which God's promises of a restored universe free from sin and death are, or begin to be, fulfilled.
In relation to the Kingdom of God history can be divided into four periods: before Yeshua, during his lifetime, the present age (the ʿolam hazeh) and the future age (the ʿolam haba). There was a sense in which the Kingdom was present prior to Yeshua's birth; indeed, God was king over the Jewish people (see 1 Samuel 12:12). Yeshua's arrival brought a quantum leap in the earthly expression of the Kingdom, "For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is" (Co 2:9).
The New Testament teaches two seemingly contradictory things about the Kingdom of God: that it is near or present (this verse, 4:17, 12:34; Lk 17:21), and that it is yet to come (25:1, Yn 18:36, Ac 1:6-7). The theologian George Ladd both highlighted and resolved this conflict by calling his book on the Kingdom of God "The Presence of the Future."
Today the Kingdom of God comes immediately and truly—but partially—to all who put their trust in Yeshua and his message, thus committing themselves to live the holy lives God's rulership demands. As an example of the "partialness," they have peace in their hearts even though there is not peace in the world. But in the future, at the end of the present age of history, when Yeshua returns, he will inaugurate the Kingdom truly and completely (Rv 19:6); then God will fulfill the rest of his Kingdom promises.
Jewish New Testament Commentary.
The Kingdom Of G-d/Kingdom of Heaven was only available spiritually after Yehoshua died and was resurrected, through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, being reborn into Yehoshua's death and resurrection. It is thus we are able to tap into the Kingdom of Heaven in a spiritual way while still in our mortal bodies. It is what we are to seek now, to have a life of joy and blessing in Yehoshua...now in a spiritual sense, and even in a physical sense to the degree that our souls prosper, but not in the complete manner we will have after Yehoshua returns, and we are made incorruptible, with the written into our very being.
And Alon, I would love to discuss the Gospel of the Kingdom, because so few people go past discussing salvation into discussing spiritual completion!
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Post by 77finch on Aug 12, 2014 8:17:14 GMT -8
That's exactly what I'm looking for in a fellowship...the "meat" from the book of Hebrews!
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Post by alon on Aug 12, 2014 10:27:18 GMT -8
[ The meat comes from proper interpretation and application of scripture. So:
]John 3:2-7- This man came to Yeshua by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know it is from God that you have come as a teacher; for no one can do these miracles you perform unless God is with him." "Yes, indeed," Yeshua answered him, "I tell you that unless a person is born again from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." Nakdimon said to him, "How can a grown man be `born'? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born a second time?" Yeshua answered, "Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. What is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit. Stop being amazed at my telling you that you must be born again from above!
Mat 13:11- He answered, "Because it has been given to you to know the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it has not been given to them.
So we can understand from the written word and the leading of the Ruach what the kingdom is and is like.
Many of the parables start with "The kingdom of heaven is like:" Mat 13:24,31,33,44,45,47
Mat 4:17,23- From that time on, Yeshua began proclaiming, "Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!" 23 Yeshua went all over the Galil teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom, and healing people from every kind of disease and sickness.
These are often used as proof we can receive the kingdom here and now. However this clearly is not what is said. It is “near” not “here.” At hand, not to hand.
Acts 2:38- Kefa answered them, "Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!
Titus3:5- he delivered us. It was not on the ground of any righteous deeds we had done, but on the ground of his own mercy. He did it by means of the mikveh of rebirth and the renewal brought about by the Ruach HaKodesh,
Salvation and the receiving of the Ruach are not the point at which we receive the kingdom; it is what qualifies us for its receipt.
Mat 4:17- (above) and Mk 1:14-15- After Yochanan had been arrested, Yeshua came into the Galil proclaiming the Good News from God: 15 "The time has come, God's Kingdom is near! Turn to God from your sins and believe the Good News!"
A comparison of these two verses shows that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same thing. Compare also:
* Mat 5:3 and Luke 6:20
* Mat 13:31 and Mark 4:30-31
Luke 17:21- nor will people be able to say, `Look! Here it is!' or, `Over there!' Because, you see, the Kingdom of God is among you."
This is another verse used to say the kingdom is here and now. However, as is often the case with mainstream based theology, simply reading a little further will dispel this idea.
Luke 17:21- 24- nor will people be able to say, `Look! Here it is!' or, `Over there!' Because, you see, the Kingdom of God is among you." 22 Then he said to his talmidim, "The time is coming when you will long to see even one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will say to you, `Look! Right here!' or, `See! Over there!' Don't run off, don't follow them, 24 because the Son of Man in his day will be like lightning that flashes and lights up the sky from one horizon to the other.
Mat 6:10- May your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as in heaven.
The Hebrews often used the term “kingdom” to refer to a reign rather than a geographicaly maped , or physical kingdom. This is how Yeshua used the term here.
Psalm 47:2- For ADONAI 'Elyon is awesome, a great king over all the earth.
Psalm 103:19- ADONAI has established his throne in heaven; his kingly power rules everything.
So here we see the kingdom of heaven has always been in existence. There is nothing new in the “New Testament.”
Dan 2:44-45- "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will establish a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not pass into the hands of another people. It will break to pieces and consume all those kingdoms; but it, itself, will stand forever like the stone you saw, which, without human hands, separated itself from the mountain and broke to pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold. The great God has revealed to the king what will come about in the future. The dream is true, and its interpretation is reliable."
Mat 3:1-3- It was during those days thatYochanan the Immerser arrived in the desert ofY'hudah and began proclaiming the message, "Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!" This is the man Yesha`yahu was talking about when he said, "The voice of someone crying out: `In the desert prepare the way of ADONAI! Make straight paths for him!'"
Mark 1:14-15- After Yochanan had been arrested, Yeshua came into the Galil proclaiming the Good News from God: 15 "The time has come, God's Kingdom is near! Turn to God from your sins and believe the Good News!"
Dani’el, Yochanon the Immerser and Yeshua Himself spoke of a physical kingdom on earth being near, not here.
1Cor 15:22-25- For just as in connection with Adam all die, so in connection with the Messiah all will be made alive. But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming; then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power. For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet.
John 18:36- Yeshua answered, "My kingship does not derive its authority from this world's order of things. If it did, my men would have fought to keep me from being arrested by the Judeans. But my kingship does not come from here."
Rom 14:17- for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, shalom and joy in the Ruach HaKodesh.
The kingdom of God is not of the world in its present state.
2 Peter 3:10-13- However, the Day of the Lord will come "like a thief." On that Day the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up. Since everything is going to be destroyed like this, what kind of people should you be? You should lead holy and godly lives, as you wait for the Day of God and work to hasten its coming. That Day will bring on the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt from the heat; but we, following along with his promise, wait for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness will be at home.
Clearly this refers to a future event where the condition of the world is radically changed in the physical sense.
I would conclude from the scriptural evidence that the idea of the kingdom being with us here and now is false teaching. The Ruach HaKodesh is with us now, and Yeshua and His kingdom cannot be here while the Ruach is with us.
John 16: 7- But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I don't go away, the comforting Counselor will not come to you. However, if I do go, I will send him to you.
Dan C
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Post by 77finch on Aug 12, 2014 11:28:01 GMT -8
I already believe in the Kingdom, I don't need convincing! My Messiah is Yeshua who is the Word of YHWH! I was just unclear and cautious to answer the question about the Kingdom because I'm new here and not totally sure if my Kingdom and your Kingdom were one and the same. I'm saved by the grace of Yeshua and seeking a closer walk with my Elohim by possibly keeping His Commandments as He has instructed in many places Old Testament and New. I thank you for your instruction but you are preaching to the choir so to speak!
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Post by alon on Aug 12, 2014 11:49:28 GMT -8
Being new doesn't mean you can't post your opinion. If you are unsure, then be sure to define your terms and we'll go from there! Remember too you are not just answering the original poster- your answers will be read by people who never post here at all.
We're all learning too, so when we put things up expect to be challenged. And though we try to come to some understanding and/or agreement, you/we are not bound to do so. You may accept or reject others views.
So jump right in and tell us what you think any time you want! I've been corrected here in my thinking several times, and appreciate every one of them. Mostly I'm right, but modesty prevents me ... 
Dan  C
edit: LOL, what I should say is that mostly we all agree right out the gate. But even then a fresh perspective can help us see things with more clarity!
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Post by Questor on Aug 12, 2014 21:21:35 GMT -8
I already believe in the Kingdom, I don't need convincing! My Messiah is Yeshua who is the Word of YHWH! I was just unclear and cautious to answer the question about the Kingdom because I'm new here and not totally sure if my Kingdom and your Kingdom were one and the same. I'm saved by the grace of Yeshua and seeking a closer walk with my Elohim by possibly keeping His Commandments as He has instructed in many places Old Testament and New. I thank you for your instruction but you are preaching to the choir so to speak!
I disagree, however, with Alon as to how close to the Kingdom we can reach while in this current earth.
Because of the Spirit of G-d, we are able to see things that only prophets in the past were able to see...what is invisible to the natural eye, what is beyond the veil of human seeing. We are also able to hear from those beings that are not in our present reality. Touching those in the Kingdom...no...that seems to be beyond us, although I have been touched, and physically moved, but there was no sensation at all, and I didn't dare to reach out to the figure I saw, a shepherd with a staff, nor do more than listen to the voice that spoke only one word...it didn't even occur to me to move, or ask a question. But the imperative in the command I have done, however inadequately...since I am merely to "Write!"
Perhaps it is because of the times, and the constant expectation I have of the last days beginning their final events...perhaps it is that I know too many people that are experiencing what few people even care to speak about, lest they be thought entirely insane, as opposed to just partially so for believing in G-d in the first place.
All these things are consistent with what the prophets have described...Daniel, John when he was receiving the Revelation. And dreams are not too unusual, whether in Joseph's head or mine, though thankfully mine are not prophetic in nature, except for seeing my death in a dream, and I have no knowledge of what that meant, nor was it fearsome in any way. What I experience seem to be informational, and nothing more, though certainly more than interesting to be involved in. Yet I know others that are receiving prophecies, and seeing things they don't like to talk about to just anyone.
I also think that we are able to live within an almost separated place...still connected to the world, and not really into the Kingdom, but still within a hedge of protection that others do not look for, and to experience a hint of the joy and delight we are to have in the Kingdom. I do not know how to move to that separated place, exactly, yet from time to time I find myself experiencing it.
But these are experiential things, of course, and I know that many do not seek them as I apparently have done almost unaware in fasting in order to reach through to G-d and get explanations that I badly needed....trying to feel my way through to where He might be.
Each of us has our own journey, and our own relationship with G-d, and perhaps I am just a pushy brat, but Abba seems to put up with me pushing and demanding knowledge and understanding. I do not get what I ask for all too often, but then there are times when I am given way too much information and understanding, as if Abba were say, "Here, chew on this information for a while, you impatient little monster!"
The Kingdom is not yet here, but with the Ruach, what can we see of it? And how close can we get to the place we are so near to?
When Yehoshua returns, we will be in a time and place of overlapping realities in the spiritual sense, but when the Kingdom begins, it is only because Yehoshua has returned. Wars are fought, and those with Yehoshua...already transformed, will be fighting, and not dying, and the many people that we come against will be defeated. And after the defeat, the Jews mourn for their mistake for 30 to 45 days. And then, presumably, the Kingdom begins.
How do the comparisons that Yehoshua made in His parables in Matthew turn into reality? What do the parables mean, not just spiritually, but as a reality? |
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Post by alon on Aug 13, 2014 10:30:16 GMT -8
“Kingdom Now” theology is part of mainstream teaching that we just have it so much better and are able to do so much more since Jesus came to save us from the constraints of the law. We’re all priests, after all, so we can just be so much more spiritual …
I’ve woke up and attacked or challenged people that weren’t there in the night. My wife won’t sleep between me and the wall anymore because I just went bat-crap-crazy attacking one such figure I thought was about to harm her. Fortunately none of these were angels or demons because I’d have been bat-splatter against the far wall of the room if they were. Other times they were so benign I watched ‘till they disappeared. The clinical term for the phenomenon is “night terrors,” and they are a very common occurrence. They do seem so real tho … just ask my wife! I’m sure many others experience this, now and before Christ too, since this has nothing to do with God.
Our minds are powerful things when it comes to creating images. Dreams can seem more real than reality. Those images can spill into our waking state in those moments when we first are waking up. If your mind was focused on “kingdom events” during much of your last waking time, it isn’t surprising this would be what your dreams are focused on as well. Often our unconscious mind continues to work on problems and we get flashes of information or insights bordering on genius from our dreams.
I don’t put much stock in modern day prophecies. Too many churches and cults have been formed based on them. Other churches have split over them. The Assemblies believes in them, yet the ones I’ve heard there range from the banal to the obvious agenda or just the attention seeker. The only real prophet I know is my dog- she seems to know what I’m going to do before I do!
We all have experienced being in that place when we are closer to God. Rabbi S always says “You are exactly as close to God at this very moment as you want to be.” Those times we open ourselves to God in praise, in worship or in our spirit is when we experience this closeness, we feel at peace and know His covering. I’m sure it was the same always. The besorah of Yeshua is not that He came to make everything easier and better for us. It is the same as it always was- God makes a way for us to be reconciled to Him, always.
If you are studying, in prayer and fasting and your mind focused on God, then you are going to experience more of all of this than the person who is not. And you are going to be closer to God and experience that feeling of His Spirit washing over you more often. Natural phenomenon such as night terrors won’t be as terrible as someone about to cleave your bed partner either (hey, it was while I was still a pagan … my head was a bit twisted then).
Analyzing dreams can be a very profitable thing to do, only because our subconscious minds can work things out much better than our conscious minds can with all the attendant clutter and distractions. But this is nothing new. I’m sure Adam dreamed and probably scared Eve to death a time or two jumping up to fight a saber-tooth that wasn’t really there either.
This idea that we are somehow different, better than ‘before’ is a theological anomaly that should be left on the doorsteps of mainC where it was spawned. We come to God in the same way- obediently and with repentant hearts; and the result is the same- salvation.
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Post by Questor on Aug 13, 2014 17:41:34 GMT -8
“Kingdom Now” theology is part of mainstream teaching that we just have it so much better and are able to do so much more since Jesus came to save us from the constraints of the law. We’re all priests, after all, so we can just be so much more spiritual …
I’ve woke up and attacked or challenged people that weren’t there in the night. My wife won’t sleep between me and the wall anymore because I just went bat-crap-crazy attacking one such figure I thought was about to harm her. Fortunately none of these were angels or demons because I’d have been bat-splatter against the far wall of the room if they were. Other times they were so benign I watched ‘till they disappeared. The clinical term for the phenomenon is “night terrors,” and they are a very common occurrence. They do seem so real tho … just ask my wife! I’m sure many others experience this, now and before Christ too, since this has nothing to do with God.
Our minds are powerful things when it comes to creating images. Dreams can seem more real than reality. Those images can spill into our waking state in those moments when we first are waking up. If your mind was focused on “kingdom events” during much of your last waking time, it isn’t surprising this would be what your dreams are focused on as well. Often our unconscious mind continues to work on problems and we get flashes of information or insights bordering on genius from our dreams.
As to visions, they too are not frightening either...they are peculiar, certainly, because something is happening within your vision that should not be happening, but again, those visions I have seen were informational, not prophetic. And the one 3D vision I had was at the beginning of this period of time, and again, was very specific and instructional, but not in the least like a dream at all...indeed the ability we have to understand Video overlay on movies or videos cannot explain either the complexity of the visions, nor how they are integrated into the life one is experiencing. Never having taken any psychedelics, I have to rely on my friends for their experiences, and such things as they experienced were inchoate, and not organized.
I simply take Joel seriously, and accept what I have seen.
Joel 2:28-29 (CJB)
28 “After this, I will pour out my Spirit on all humanity. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions;
29 and also on male and female slaves in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
One thing marvellous about the dreams and the visions, one doesn't have to try to recall them...they are there, clear, and memorable, imprinted in a way that any normal memory is imprinted. However, since I only talk about these things in order to open peoples eyes to what is there that I can see, and remind people that our rational western minds do not entirely believe what the Prophets have said...even when they are already fulfilled. There is always that hesitance...as if the Ruach haKodesh cannot really, or does not really connect to people in this way. Still, feel free to scoff...I am not seeking anyone to even know what my dreams and visions were about...they were mostly just for me, and to be able to describe to people what they are like. Frankly, I wish all people sought them, and had them...they are rather marvellous...astonishing, but marvellous.I don’t put much stock in modern day prophecies. Too many churches and cults have been formed based on them. Other churches have split over them. The Assemblies believes in them, yet the ones I’ve heard there range from the banal to the obvious agenda or just the attention seeker. The only real prophet I know is my dog- she seems to know what I’m going to do before I do! We all have experienced being in that place when we are closer to God. Rabbi S always says “You are exactly as close to God at this very moment as you want to be.” Those times we open ourselves to God in praise, in worship or in our spirit is when we experience this closeness, we feel at peace and know His covering. I’m sure it was the same always. The besorah of Yeshua is not that He came to make everything easier and better for us. It is the same as it always was- God makes a way for us to be reconciled to Him, always.
If you are studying, in prayer and fasting and your mind focused on God, then you are going to experience more of all of this than the person who is not. And you are going to be closer to God and experience that feeling of His Spirit washing over you more often. Natural phenomenon such as night terrors won’t be as terrible as someone about to cleave your bed partner either (hey, it was while I was still a pagan … my head was a bit twisted then).
Analyzing dreams can be a very profitable thing to do, only because our subconscious minds can work things out much better than our conscious minds can with all the attendant clutter and distractions. But this is nothing new. I’m sure Adam dreamed and probably scared Eve to death a time or two jumping up to fight a saber-tooth that wasn’t really there either.  child. They are rare, complete, and specific, and much to be valued.This idea that we are somehow different, better than ‘before’ is a theological anomaly that should be left on the doorsteps of mainC where it was spawned. We come to God in the same way- obediently and with repentant hearts; and the result is the same- salvation.
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Post by Questor on Aug 13, 2014 17:51:27 GMT -8
Getting into what you mentioned as Kingdom Now, evidently a Christian teaching I am unaware of...I do not think that we can physically experience what we will have in the Kingdom of Heaven.
I think we can experience a spiritual sweet spot from time to time that gives us a taste of what is to come.
I am still more interested in how each of the various parables apply to us now, and how they explain what the Kingdom will be like. It is fairly easy to understand the parables as explained, but what do they represent in how the Kingdom will be...particularly when added to those things within all the prophecies that are not about the end of days, but refer specifically to the Kingdom?
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Post by 77finch on Aug 18, 2014 8:11:15 GMT -8
I've been gone camping for nearly a week no service. I have a question about this "kingdom now" stuff...If we can experience the Kingdom now, wouldn't we be able to interact with YHWH? If so, how could we interact with YHWH in our "fallen" or sinful nature? Does this idea of "Kingdom now" teach that we can live without sinning? It seems that must be because we could not be in YHWH's presence with any sin in us? If the idea of a life without sin was possible, would there be any need for a Savior? Yet our Scriptures point toward a Messiah from the beginning. I believe in the Kingdom...but not until Yeshua establishes it and puts an end to all sin. The "Kingdom Now" stuff sounds a lot like "Name it and Claim it". To use an extremely overused verse;
John 3:16-17 He came to give us life or save us from death which is the price of sin...if we could save ourselves why would Yeshua go to the trouble?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by jimmie on Aug 18, 2014 14:10:04 GMT -8
Does this idea of "Kingdom now" teach that we can live without sinning? It seems that must be because we could not be in YHWH's presence with any sin in us? If the idea of a life without sin was possible, would there be any need for a Savior? The following may shed some light on this. (Luke 1:6 KJV) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.(1 Cor 1:8 KJV) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Phil 2:15 KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
(Phil 3:6 KJV) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.(1 Th 5:23 KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Tim 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Tim 3:10 KJV) And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. (Titus 1:6 KJV) If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. (Titus 1:7 KJV) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; (2 Pet 3:14 KJV) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. (Mat 9:13 KJV) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Mark 2:17 KJV) When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. |
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Post by alon on Aug 18, 2014 18:53:08 GMT -8
This is going to devolve into semantics, but so be it.
Being held blameless because of the blood of Yeshua and our justification by faith is NOT the same as being sinless. Can anyone here claim to have not sinned once even in the last 12 hrs.? In our present state we can not be in the physical presence of a Holy God. We can feel the presence of His Ruach, which indwells us and at times fills us to overflowing. But this is not the same as being in His presence. So yes, we can feel His presence now, but it is not the same as His Kingdom with us.
It is difficult to counter the "Kingdom Now" idea because there is so much craziness in this theology it mostly depends on what part you buy into. I remember over 40 yrs. ago listening to an "evangelist" trying to convince my parents that if we are good enough we can bypass the Tribulation and bring the Kingdom to earth without all that destruction and meanness. They used some of the scripture jimmie quoted; theorized that since Avraham haggled with God over the destruction of Sodom that we could do the same; that if we could just get enough righteous people here on earth at the same time God would relent (and presumably just let the sinners keep sinning while He established His Kingdom ... they never said or I lost interest, declared them insane and went off to do something else).
I believe God sees the beginning and the ending, He knows what will happen and He has a plan. His Kingdom will be established after all this is done away with. He won't establish it on an earth filled with sin. He will however send His Ruach to His own, showing us a taste of the joy to come when He does establish His Kingdom. He may give some visions, some His presence may be stronger with, and some may just be filled with joy all the time. I'm happy for you if this is the case. But it is not the Kingdom- not even close!
Dan C
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Post by 77finch on Aug 18, 2014 21:00:13 GMT -8
Your verses on being blameless really got me into the Word Jimmie, thank you. I believe that we were only given one Lamb without blemish. If there were more the whole thing falls apart. The book of Hebrews really goes over this in depth. Hear are a couple quotes.
Hebrews 5:15: For we have not a high priest, who cannot share in our infirmities; but we have one who was tempted in everything as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 9:13-14: For if the blood of bulls and goats, and the sprinkling of ashes of a heifer on those having been defiled, sanctifies them to the purity of the flesh, by how much more the blood of Messiah who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to YHWH, will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living Elohim!
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. It is called the Words of Wisdom and a Mormon must keep these in order to gain access to their temples. To reach the highest heaven a Mormon must have access to the temple. It's really not Biblical at all although a Mormon would say it was biblical. Very confusing.
child. They are rare, complete, and specific, and much to be valued.
