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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2014 10:28:59 GMT -8
9.Sh'moth 20:4 (OJB) Thou shalt not make unto thee any pesel, or any temunah of any thing that is in Shomayim above, or that is in ha’aretz beneath, or that is in the mayim under ha’aretz.
Exodus 20:4 (CJB) You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline.
Va-yiqra 19:4 (OJB) Turn ye not unto elilim, nor make to yourselves elohei massekhah (cast metal g-ds); I am Hashem Eloheichem.
Leviticus 19:4 (CJB) "'Do not turn to idols, and do not cast metal gods for yourselves; I am ADONAI your God."
as Scripture says, You shall not make for yourselves a graven image ... If a person transgressed and made one, whether he fashioned it for himself or ordered it made, he should be given whiplashes. If he made it for himself, he should be given whiplashes twice(over the prohibition and over the injunction [10], and do not make yourselves molten gods. ...)
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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2014 10:40:38 GMT -8
As I write this, it is 11:30 AM Sunday morning, and in churches everywhere people are bowing or kneeling at alters adorned with graven images. And not just Catholicism, but in mainstream churches who don't believe their crosses, tablets with this and last weeks "scores" for attendance and money raked in, stained glass windows and many other things they NEVER separated themselves from after Martin Luther's works- they never even consider these idols. Yet if they read scripture with a discerning mind they cannot but conclude what most of us here did on our own when we started looking for alternatives to the lies and (eventually) found MJ. But are there any areas we may not have separated ourselves from idolatry?
After all, part of the MJ journey is to question everything, to put it all on the line and pass it through the fire and see what survives. But this is a process, not a one time thing. So where might we find, either corporately or individually, places where we still engage in idolatry? I f you are struggling with it or just find it in your life, it is almost a certainty someone else has the same problem. You never know who your own answers might help. So by all means, speak up; please.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2014 11:10:56 GMT -8
Something else kind of stands out for me here: why is the penalty for this so light? I mean, this is a seriouse infraction? And calling it an injunction? It is a commandment! I'm not even asking about this one because it is so plainly written in scripture- we are not to do it! Only the Elohim of Avraham is to be worshiped!!!
So why just whip a person for this one, yet cast them out and cut them off for breaking Shabbath? I guess I still have a lot of mainC in me yet (and you won't hear me admit that often!), because I find I'm much more likely to break the Sabbath in some way than to give in to idolatry. I mean, I like the Magen Dovid, but I don't worship it. I like the wings on the pin I wear on my motorcycle jacket, but I took them to the Rabbi and asked if they would be considered an idol, fully willing to take them off in the instant if he said yes. (No head, so no idol, but ...). I get angry at the doctors sometime because I can't ride much in the sunlight (neuropathy), but I haven't given into the temptation to do them harm over it. So the bike isn't an idol.
But I was raised to work, and I often get antsy on Shabbath to do something besides rest. I'd call that more a compulsion than an idol though. So why so harsh on Shabbath and so light on idolatry? I'd take a whippin' if only I could DO sumpin' on Shabbath sometimes!  But God said no, not man ... to BOTH infractions. So no is no (unless I get to be President then maybe I could parse it out- that's a 90's reference, btw). "But, God, "no" can be taken very specifically, or more commonly it is a very general term. Is it any wonder I ... hey, what, NO!!!, that's the wrong gate!"
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Aug 3, 2014 22:05:59 GMT -8
As I write this, it is 11:30 AM Sunday morning, and in churches everywhere people are bowing or kneeling at alters adorned with graven images. And not just Catholicism, but in mainstream churches who don't believe their crosses, tablets with this and last weeks "scores" for attendance and money raked in, stained glass windows and many other things they NEVER separated themselves from after Martin Luther's works- they never even consider these idols. Yet if they read scripture with a discerning mind they cannot but conclude what most of us here did on our own when we started looking for alternatives to the lies and (eventually) found MJ. But are there any areas we may not have separated ourselves from idolatry?
After all, part of the MJ journey is to question everything, to put it all on the line and pass it through the fire and see what survives. But this is a process, not a one time thing. So where might we find, either corporately or individually, places where we still engage in idolatry? I f you are struggling with it or just find it in your life, it is almost a certainty someone else has the same problem. You never know who your own answers might help. So by all means, speak up; please.
Dan C
Am I being extreme? It's more a personal taste in my view, but I might just be a bit too careful.
My problem is when I see shows on You Tube that are given by Rabbi's in New York, or Israel, and I see they have images around them...I am always troubled by the Lubivatcher Rebbe's photo, for instance...his picture is everywhere, in the same way that the Pope's might be to a Catholic, or a tryptich to an Orthodox Believer in Greece or Russia.
Oddly, these days my eyes tend to prefer the plainest of designs when looking at Passover platters, or anything ornamented...carved leaves are about as far as I can go there, and I really prefer the geometric patterns. And all of this just...happened. No planning involved at all. |
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Post by Questor on Aug 3, 2014 22:30:38 GMT -8
Something else kind of stands out for me here: why is the penalty for this so light? I mean, this is a seriouse infraction? And calling it an injunction? It is a commandment! I'm not even asking about this one because it is so plainly written in scripture- we are not to do it! Only the Elohim of Avraham is to be worshiped!!!
So why just whip a person for this one, yet cast them out and cut them off for breaking Shabbath? I guess I still have a lot of mainC in me yet (and you won't hear me admit that often!), because I find I'm much more likely to break the Sabbath in some way than to give in to idolatry. I mean, I like the Magen Dovid, but I don't worship it. I like the wings on the pin I wear on my motorcycle jacket, but I took them to the Rabbi and asked if they would be considered an idol, fully willing to take them off in the instant if he said yes. (No head, so no idol, but ...). I get angry at the doctors sometime because I can't ride much in the sunlight (neuropathy), but I haven't given into the temptation to do them harm over it. So the bike isn't an idol.
But I was raised to work, and I often get antsy on Shabbath to do something besides rest. I'd call that more a compulsion than an idol though. So why so harsh on Shabbath and so light on idolatry? I'd take a whippin' if only I could DO sumpin' on Shabbath sometimes! But God said no, not man ... to BOTH infractions. So no is no (unless I get to be President then maybe I could parse it out- that's a 90's reference, btw). "But, God, "no" can be taken very specifically, or more commonly it is a very general term. Is it any wonder I ... hey, what, NO!!!, that's the wrong gate!" 
Dan  C
I am grateful to be under Grace, and also to be seeking to be able to keep getting better at keeping the Shabbat bit by bit.
As for being killed because it was the Shabbat...it was a difficult matter to get the Israelites to trust in YHVH so much that they would simply not work every day, but trust in YHVH for their sustenance, but since they were having manna provided, the law breaking was more about getting ahead of the game by working on the Sabbath, as if YHVH wouldn't provide everything needed despite having the Sabbath off.
As it was, the Sabbath breaker who got caught gathering wood was killed because he was seeking to provide for himself a luxury at the expense of others...there was no one competing for the wood in that barren area that day, and therefore he would be gaining an advantage at the expense of the others. Stopping people born to daily slavery from doing anything except what might be considered pleasurable...as in not done to earn sustenance, to gain an advantage, or because of lack of trust in Abba are the keys to me.
Resting is not about refraining from a specific task, but in not providing for yourself, and trusting Abba. For instance, I have no trouble writing on the Sabbath, as I am not a Scribe, earning my living by it, and it is my ministry as well, so I do it on the Sabbath part of the time.
And when I was out in the greenhouse just before Sunset, I was thanking Abba the entire time for having what He had given me, and that it was all doing so well by the changes He had made in me, and the tools and knowledge He had provided me. And as I watered the plants that cannot be watered mechanically yet, I was running praise music as loud as I could.
This is why I value Grace so much...my life is nothing like the Israelites' lives when they came out of Egypt, and I fear that the Rabbi's ideas about what was permissible and what wasn't didn't keep in mind that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Still, I want to do better, and as soon as there is electricity in the Greenhouse, and the lights hooked up, I can wait until after sundown. And Tyche...she doesn't mind running in the dark with only my headlights to show me where she is...she can see in the dark! |
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Post by alon on Aug 4, 2014 1:37:10 GMT -8
I really don't see a problem with taking care of plants and animals, as long as the tasks couldn't be done on Fri. instead of Shabbath. Most need daily care, and putting out enough feed, for example, to last 2 days is usually wasteful and often harmful to the animals. I don't water the lawn, but I'd care for my wife's plants wilting in this heat without worrying about it.
The problems come when religiosity takes over from common sense and a desire to please God instead of controlling the lives of other men. That is why the Rabbis make halacha for the time and place you are in! A list made in Israel 2000 yrs. ago could never benefit us here in 21st cen. wherever you/we are! Not in every respect, anyhow.
This is one reason I'm putting these up is so we can respectfully discuss, for those like yourself who a.) have no rabbi or local congregation, and b.) don't want to take on the full mantle of a prosylite yet DO want to become TO and in so doing please God! Not that we here are the final authority either, but too often we're all we got!
Dan C
btw- many of these will be Rabbinic Judaism's efforts to control, but not all. And even those that are were made by learned men in agreement with others of equal status, so we can often still learn from even those things we don't hold as applicable. My opinion ... but for the price of a little book I got all those centuries of wisdom, and thought I'd share.
Mat 23:1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: 2 "The  -teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don't do what they do, because they talk but don't act!
I believe Yeshua was speaking of the learned leaders who sat in the seat of authority in their time and place, as these are the men who actually DID physically sit in Moses Seat every Shabbath and teach them !
Something else kind of stands out for me here: why is the penalty for this so light? I mean, this is a seriouse infraction? And calling it an injunction? It is a commandment! I'm not even asking about this one because it is so plainly written in scripture- we are not to do it! Only the Elohim of Avraham is to be worshiped!!!
So why just whip a person for this one, yet cast them out and cut them off for breaking Shabbath? I guess I still have a lot of mainC in me yet (and you won't hear me admit that often!), because I find I'm much more likely to break the Sabbath in some way than to give in to idolatry. I mean, I like the Magen Dovid, but I don't worship it. I like the wings on the pin I wear on my motorcycle jacket, but I took them to the Rabbi and asked if they would be considered an idol, fully willing to take them off in the instant if he said yes. (No head, so no idol, but ...). I get angry at the doctors sometime because I can't ride much in the sunlight (neuropathy), but I haven't given into the temptation to do them harm over it. So the bike isn't an idol.
But I was raised to work, and I often get antsy on Shabbath to do something besides rest. I'd call that more a compulsion than an idol though. So why so harsh on Shabbath and so light on idolatry? I'd take a whippin' if only I could DO sumpin' on Shabbath sometimes! But God said no, not man ... to BOTH infractions. So no is no (unless I get to be President then maybe I could parse it out- that's a 90's reference, btw). "But, God, "no" can be taken very specifically, or more commonly it is a very general term. Is it any wonder I ... hey, what, NO!!!, that's the wrong gate!"
Dan C
I am grateful to be under Grace, and also to be seeking to be able to keep getting better at keeping the Shabbat bit by bit.
As for being killed because it was the Shabbat...it was a difficult matter to get the Israelites to trust in YHVH so much that they would simply not work every day, but trust in YHVH for their sustenance, but since they were having manna provided, the law breaking was more about getting ahead of the game by working on the Sabbath, as if YHVH wouldn't provide everything needed despite having the Sabbath off.
As it was, the Sabbath breaker who got caught gathering wood was killed because he was seeking to provide for himself a luxury at the expense of others...there was no one competing for the wood in that barren area that day, and therefore he would be gaining an advantage at the expense of the others. Stopping people born to daily slavery from doing anything except what might be considered pleasurable...as in not done to earn sustenance, to gain an advantage, or because of lack of trust in Abba are the keys to me.
Resting is not about refraining from a specific task, but in not providing for yourself, and trusting Abba. For instance, I have no trouble writing on the Sabbath, as I am not a Scribe, earning my living by it, and it is my ministry as well, so I do it on the Sabbath part of the time.
And when I was out in the greenhouse just before Sunset, I was thanking Abba the entire time for having what He had given me, and that it was all doing so well by the changes He had made in me, and the tools and knowledge He had provided me. And as I watered the plants that cannot be watered mechanically yet, I was running praise music as loud as I could.
This is why I value Grace so much...my life is nothing like the Israelites' lives when they came out of Egypt, and I fear that the Rabbi's ideas about what was permissible and what wasn't didn't keep in mind that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Still, I want to do better, and as soon as there is electricity in the Greenhouse, and the lights hooked up, I can wait until after sundown. And Tyche...she doesn't mind running in the dark with only my headlights to show me where she is...she can see in the dark!
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Post by alon on Nov 30, 2014 13:09:45 GMT -8
This is a really tough one. Honey bears, the grandkids toys they bring in (which often reside under the couch for a while before I find them); and I am still going through and throwing out a couple hundred dollars worth of leather stamps with animals on them. Both they and the images they leave on the leather are graven. This also means I am going through and either throwing out leather items, or cutting off the offending images. Graven images are such a large part of life in "Christian countries" that we don't even think about most of them being a problem. Some I'm not even sure about, and so will have to ask the Rabbi- like my "dolphins"; drafting tools named because of a vague similarity in their shape to their namesake. Made obsolete by CAD systems, I now use them as weights to aid in tying tzitzit to my tallits! Never really gave it much thought until now ...
Nobody said it would be easy, I suppose.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Dec 2, 2014 15:00:51 GMT -8
I Kings 7:25?
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 1:58:58 GMT -8
I take it you are referring to the fact that there were graven images in and on the Temple; and let's not forget the Mercy Seat as well!
These were put there at God's instruction. He can do things we can't, and it is His prerogative to have these in His Temple. Even so, we (mortal men) were to follow His instructions exactly! No artistic license. He had His reasons for every instruction ever given to us.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Dec 3, 2014 6:03:33 GMT -8
do you not have images(photos) of your children and grandchilen? did you make those images for yourself or did God instruct you to make thiem?
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 8:05:41 GMT -8
do you not have images(photos) of your children and grandchilen? did you make those images for yourself or did God instruct you to make thiem?
Our halacha is photos are not graven images. The forum rules/SoF don't address the issue, however they do allow avatars, so draw your own conclusions from that. Furthermore there are many photos of Jews, including Rabbis, from diverse geographic and sectarian groups which survive to this day; so we can say that most if not all agree photos are halachicaly OK.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Dec 3, 2014 10:12:31 GMT -8
So the icons of the Eastern Orthodox is fine, but the stautes of the Catholic's are not?
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Post by alon on Dec 3, 2014 15:20:42 GMT -8
So the icons of the Eastern Orthodox is fine,
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 4, 2014 6:13:36 GMT -8
Even the images, build as God said to do, are not acceptable when they are used in the wrong manner. Wittness the Branzen Serpent. As I see it, the image is not the problem. The problem is do we bow down to it. See Ex 20:5
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Post by alon on Dec 4, 2014 14:36:47 GMT -8
Even the images, build as God said to do, are not acceptable when they are used in the wrong manner. Wittness the Branzen Serpent. As I see it, the image is not the problem. The problem is do we bow down to it. See Ex 20:5
Exodus 20:4 (CJB) You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline.
HaShem didn't say "Just don't worship them." He said don't make them. So I'll have to go with scripture on this one.
Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
But God said no, not man ... to BOTH infractions. So no is no (unless I get to be President then maybe I could parse it out- that's a 90's reference, btw). "But, God, "no" can be taken very specifically, or more commonly it is a very general term. Is it any wonder I ... hey, what, NO!!!, that's the wrong gate!" 
