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Post by Questor on Apr 20, 2014 21:51:06 GMT -8
When once takes communion during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, using unleavened bread at this time is only natural.
Is there a valid reason for using Unleavened Bread at every communion?
Luke 22:14-20 (KJV)
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
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Post by alon on Apr 21, 2014 13:41:43 GMT -8
When once takes communion during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, using unleavened bread at this time is only natural.
Is there a valid reason for using Unleavened Bread at every communion? Wine is a Biblical substitute for blood, and in this case Yeshua even says "This is my blood." What greater sacrifice, and therefore what greater insult than to offer up a cup of remembrance with leavened bread!? We could argue about many things regarding Communion, even whether it is correct outside the Passover Seder. But this one thing is not up for discussion or debate- we are not to offer up any cup of remembrance of the blood of Yeshua with any leavened bread! Most Christian churches try to get by with unsalted crackers. However crackers do contain leaven. Check the ingredients and you'll find it listed. Matzah is made in an environment as clean of leaven as possible, and the dough is baked quickly so as not to draw any leavening agents from the air. So even if crackers didn't contain leaven as a listed ingredient, they are not baked with such attention to detail and would probably be contaminated anyhow. Part of our Messianic walk is the belief that God doesn't change, and His instructions do not change either. I have to take Ex 34:25 seriously. I do not take communion with Christians any more mostly because of this one issue. In fact, I'd have no problem taking communion with professing Christians if they used unleavened bread and could assure me all males were circumcised. Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Apr 21, 2014 20:49:16 GMT -8
When once takes communion during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, using unleavened bread at this time is only natural.
Is there a valid reason for using Unleavened Bread at every communion? Wine is a Biblical substitute for blood, and in this case Yeshua even says "This is my blood." What greater sacrifice, and therefore what greater insult than to offer up a cup of remembrance with leavened bread!? We could argue about many things regarding Communion, even whether it is correct outside the Passover Seder. But this one thing is not up for discussion or debate- we are not to offer up any cup of remembrance of the blood of Yeshua with any leavened bread! Most Christian churches try to get by with unsalted crackers. However crackers do contain leaven. Check the ingredients and you'll find it listed. Matzah is made in an environment as clean of leaven as possible, and the dough is baked quickly so as not to draw any leavening agents from the air. So even if crackers didn't contain leaven as a listed ingredient, they are not baked with such attention to detail and would probably be contaminated anyhow. Part of our Messianic walk is the belief that God doesn't change, and His instructions do not change either. I have to take Ex 34:25 seriously. I do not take communion with Christians any more mostly because of this one issue. In fact, I'd have no problem taking communion with professing Christians if they used unleavened bread and could assure me all males were circumcised. Dan C
What Scriptures back up that taking communion is a sacrifice...the love feast of the 1st century, when even the Temple still stood...is a sacrifice? Yehoshua did not name it so, and it would seem to take bread and wine as a remembrance of His redeeming sacrifice which was to follow later on the following day of Erev Peshach is in no may making a sacrifice of anykind. To drink wine and eat bread as a remembrance of Him...how is that a sacrifice, and if it is, we are sacrificing Yehoshua over and over again.
I have no objection to using unleavened bread at communion...particularly since I take communion alone. I just don't see the drinking of the cup and the taking of the bread have anything to do with Yehoshua's self sacrifice, particularly when He himself told up to partake of bread and wine to remember Him, not to pour out the cup as an offering, or giving bread as an offering.
Hebrews 10:3-10 (CJB)
3 No, it is quite the contrary — in these sacrifices is a reminder of sins, year after year.
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.
5 This is why, on coming into the world, he says, “It has not been your will to have an animal sacrifice and a meal offering; rather, you have prepared for me a body.
6 No, you have not been pleased with burnt offerings and sin offerings.
7 Then I said, ‘Look! In the scroll of the book it is written about me. I have come to do your will.’”
8 In saying first, “You neither willed nor were pleased with animal sacrifices, meal offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings,” things which are offered in accordance with the  ;
9 and then, “Look, I have come to do your will”; he takes away the first system in order to set up the second.
10 It is in connection with this will that we have been separated for God and made holy, once and for all, through the offering of Yeshua the Messiah’s body. |
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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2014 1:44:05 GMT -8
Questor, you are hung up on the Catholic idea of communion, where they do believe (as I understand it- I've never been Catholic) the wine and bread do become the blood and body of Christ, and they do sacrifice Him over and over. Most, if not all Protestants find this idea an abomination. They do not believe in Transubstantiation. The wine and bread are symbolic only, and therefore Yeshua died only once as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. This is what my sect of Messianism believes as well, though we only practice "communion" once a year at Pesach. They are a reminder of the cost of our sins, looking back to that sacrifice just as the blood of bulls and rams was shed looking forward in faith that YHVH would provide a final redemption.
Scripturally I think I provided a very clear mandate in Ex 34:25. When Elohim says "You shall not," I think He means "you shall not." He did not equivocate. "You are not to offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread."
The CJB gives a more clear translation of Luke 22:20 "He did the same with the cup after the meal, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant, ratified by my blood, which is being poured out for you." The 3rd cup of Passover is clearly representative of His blood- it does not become His blood.
I share your abhorrence at the idea that we'd actually eat the flesh and drink the blood of Yeshua, thus sacrificing Him over and over. Whenever we "take communion" or eat the Passover meal we do these things as God commanded as a remembrance of the only sacrifice made that could take away our sins; and of the enormous cost of even the smallest sins we commit. Leaven represents sin in the Bible; it no more being sin than wine is blood. We use unleavened bread because it represents His body, He in whom no sin (no leaven) was found. The matzah is pierced, striped, and finally broken as a picture of what happened to Yeshua as He sacrificed Himself for us.
I don't know how else to explain it. We are neither cannibals nor torturers, as though we could even do this to God at our own whim time and again.
Dan C
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Post by Yedidyah on Apr 22, 2014 5:59:53 GMT -8
Shalom!
I think the biggest thing to remember here is that this is specific about Passover not some weekly communion in any way.
One who does not keep Passover but follows the communion of a church weekly has in turn made the commandments void by their own traditions.
Yedidyah
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Post by jimmie on Apr 22, 2014 13:49:17 GMT -8
amen
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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2014 15:28:34 GMT -8
I think the biggest thing to remember here is that this is specific about Passover not some weekly communion in any way. One who does not keep Passover but follows the communion of a church weekly has in turn made the commandments void by their own traditions. While I agree with what you say, Questor seems to be asking about the act of communion as practiced in mainC, where they periodically take just a small cup of juice or wine and a wafer, usually a broken cracker. I have however even seen them break apart a loaf of bread for this. Right or wrong about taking communion periodically through the year, they are still doing it in remembrance of Yeshua's sacrifice for us. To mix that cup representing His blood with any leaven is an insult to God! But like most things mainC, once you've decided to go your own way it is easier to break all the instructions set down by God. How about Easter communion with a roasted ham lunch afterwards. And make sure all the kiddies get out and participate in the fertility rites- the one that finds the most eggs gets a free pair of bunnies! Dan C edit: as a side, If they were to keep Passover, and they wanted to take communion through the year, I'd have no problem with this tradition as long as it was done properly (no leaven, all males circumcised). However they also need to understand what they are doing. They say that Jesus only gave us two "ordinances": communion and baptism. These they say replaced all those burdensome Jewish feasts and laws. Yet they can point to no scripture saying we should do this. They say they just go by the example of Jesus. Obviously they don't, since Yeshua participated in the entire Pesach Seder. And He underwent tevilah (not baptism) as any good Jewish person would whenever He made a major life change- like embarking on His ministry. Making traditions is fine, as long as you've got the basics covered and they don't conflict with scripture. What is practiced in mainC however conflicts at every step, mostly because they do NOT have their basics covered! |
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Post by Questor on Apr 22, 2014 19:45:59 GMT -8
I think the biggest thing to remember here is that this is specific about Passover not some weekly communion in any way. One who does not keep Passover but follows the communion of a church weekly has in turn made the commandments void by their own traditions. While I agree with what you say, Questor seems to be asking about the act of communion as practiced in mainC, where they periodically take just a small cup of juice or wine and a wafer, usually a broken cracker. I have however even seen them break apart a loaf of bread for this. Right or wrong about taking communion periodically through the year, they are still doing it in remembrance of Yeshua's sacrifice for us. To mix that cup representing His blood with any leaven is an insult to God! But like most things mainC, once you've decided to go your own way it is easier to break all the instructions set down by God. How about Easter communion with a roasted ham lunch afterwards. And make sure all the kiddies get out and participate in the fertility rites- the one that finds the most eggs gets a free pair of bunnies! Dan C edit: as a side, If they were to keep Passover, and they wanted to take communion through the year, I'd have no problem with this tradition as long as it was done properly (no leaven, all males circumcised). However they also need to understand what they are doing. They say that Jesus only gave us two "ordinances": communion and baptism. These they say replaced all those burdensome Jewish feasts and laws. Yet they can point to no scripture saying we should do this. They say they just go by the example of Jesus. Obviously they don't, since Yeshua participated in the entire Pesach Seder. And He underwent tevilah (not baptism) as any good Jewish person would whenever He made a major life change- like embarking on His ministry. Making traditions is fine, as long as you've got the basics covered and they don't conflict with scripture. What is practiced in mainC however conflicts at every step, mostly because they do NOT have their basics covered!
I understand what you are trying to say, Alon, and since I keep the Feast of unleavened bread to the extent that I make my own unleavened bread...probably no differently than they did in the First Century...it isn't difficult, and mine tastes better than packaged matza. Taking communion only at the Feast of Passover seems to be incorrect, since the churches during the First Century were having a 'love feast' every Shabbat, but I like taking communion from time to time, so I don't have any particular day for it, so long as I have communion on Passover as well.
My concern is why the taking of wine or juice as a symbol of Yehoshua's blood is considered a sacrifice by you. Yehoshua said to take the bread and wine that represented His flesh and blood sacrifice as a remembrance of him...to recall what He did as that Passover. There was a Temple for 40 years after that night...were they to offer an oblation and grain offering? It seems unlikely, since Yehoshua said to do this in remembrance of Him. I just do not see that as a sacrifice. I do not object to you treating it so, and insisting on unleavened bread because that taking of wine or juice is a sacrifice to you...I just see no validity in calling a remembrance a sacrifice. Why is it a sacrifice? And if a sacrifice, why not offered in the Temple?
I think that bread taken in representation of Yehoshua should be unleavened, to remember His sinless state at the time of His sacrifice, just as taking wine or juice represents the blood spilled to wash us clean from our sins. It is not a hard thing to do, and having a box of Matza around for those times when I do not bake unleavened bread is easy enough, although baking the bread is somewhat ceremonial in nature, and emphasizes the communion being taken.
As for MainC Believers, I hope that Yehoshua will see their hearts, and the extent of their knowledge, and grant them Grace for errors, just as I hope to be forgiven my errors in carrying out Yehoshua's wishes. Otherwise, are we not saying that unless all believers do or perform the marks of their faith exactly the same way as we do, they are unsaved? I do not want to judge anyone for not doing as I do...after all, I could be wrong, not being G-d.
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2014 2:19:20 GMT -8
... I think that bread taken in representation of Yehoshua should be unleavened, ... So, if you see the bread as a representation, why are you having such a problem with the wine being a representation as well? I don't see any of it as being "a" sacrifice, but merely a representation of "the" sacrifice. Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 23, 2014 9:04:11 GMT -8
[edit: as a side, If they were to keep Passover, and they wanted to take communion through the year, I'd have no problem with this tradition as long as it was done properly (no leaven, all males circumcised). {quote} How is that different from xmas, easter, etc. |
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2014 15:08:17 GMT -8
[edit: as a side, If they were to keep Passover, and they wanted to take communion through the year, I'd have no problem with this tradition as long as it was done properly (no leaven, all males circumcised). {quote} How is that different from xmas, easter, etc. jimmie, Questor didn't say that. I did, so I'll answer your question. It is different in every way. First off is the requirement that they keep the feast on which their tradition is based. Christmas and Easter replaces the feasts with pagan holidays. Second is the requirement they keep things as God ordained, "no leaven, all males circumcised," instead of replacing His way with pagan customs. And finally God never said we couldn't create religious customs, only that they could not contradict or make burdensome His commandments. "Communion" done properly would not do either; it's just that I have never seen communion done properly so that leaves me not partaking in any communion with mainC. Communion done correctly would place the focus on what Yeshua did for us, whereas the pagan replacement days place the emphasis on parties, gifts, fun and self indulgence. Done right, communion could be a beautiful way to help keep our focus on God. I don't espouse throwing out anything from either Judaism or Christianity without cause. Communion could be a good tradition to keep, but again only if done correctly. Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays, with pagan customs and the pagan focus on pleasing ourselves. Communion should remind us of why we want to please God. Dan C edit: see Ex 12:48 for the prohibition of the uncircumcised taking part in a Passover meal, which by extension would include "communion" since this is where the tradition of communion comes from. This could be a problem in every Christian church I know of- 1st because of the likelihood of there being uncircumcised males in all of them and second because few Christians think it is a problem, therefore they'd possibly just be quiet when asked and partake any how. |
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Post by Questor on Apr 23, 2014 20:05:00 GMT -8
... I think that bread taken in representation of Yehoshua should be unleavened, ... So, if you see the bread as a representation, why are you having such a problem with the wine being a representation as well? I don't see any of it as being "a" sacrifice, but merely a representation of "the" sacrifice. Dan C
They are representations, not an acual sacrifice...a remembrance, not an offering, and not even within the feasts, therefore MainC people are not breaking any laws. They may be remembering Yehoshua in a non-Jewish way, but there is no commandment about that requirement for unleavened bread except with a sacrifice, other than during Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which if they are not circumsized is forbidden them. Not using unleavened bread during those feasts is plainly against the , and can be taught, because of the Feast itself.
The MainC Sunday gathering for Worship, whether on a day also called Easter, and with pagan connotations is merely a gathering of a bunch of badly taught children in the Word...those that are saved will be lead to adherance by the Holy Spirit to the extent that each of these children grows in the Word, from being drawn toward the Scriptures, and being taught by them, and not by men...pretty much as everyone does that seeks to go beyond the surface of their faith. The main point about taking communion was discerning the Lord's body as being represented by the bread and blood, and if taken lightly, and without understanding was tantamount to blasphemy.
1 Corinthians 11:23-31 (CJB)
23 For what I received from the Lord is just what I passed on to you — that the Lord Yeshua, on the night he was betrayed, took bread;
24 and after he had made the b’rakhah he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this as a memorial to me”;
25 likewise also the cup after the meal, saying, “This cup is the New Covenant effected by my blood; do this, as often as you drink it, as a memorial to me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord, until he comes.
27 Therefore, whoever eats the Lord’s bread or drinks the Lord’s cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of desecrating the body and blood of the Lord!
28 So let a person examine himself first, and then he may eat of the bread and drink from the cup;
29 for a person who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
30 This is why many among you are weak and sick, and some have died!
31 If we would examine ourselves, we would not come under judgment.
Examining the representation of the wine and bread does not seem to be the point, but discerning Yehoshua's body, and remembering His sacrifice that saves us seems to be the point in communion.
Telling people that when they take communion, and remember the sacrifice that Yehoshua made for us, that they are are not doing it as you do, and that they are wrong for not doing it your way, you are judging them as unbelievers to their face...and only Yehoshua can read the heart of a man.
Not taking communion with them because for you unleavened bread is the more perfect mitvot is fine...telling them that by not doing it your way, according to your beliefs of how communion should be prepared and taken is judging them as unfit for the Kingdom. Telling them that there is a better way to take communion, by using Matza, is something they can understand but choose not to do.
Requiring them to be circumcised in the flesh is saying they must convert to Judaism in order to partake of communion, when circumcision of the heart is sufficient according to Sha'ul.
Romans 2:14-29 (CJB)
14 For whenever Gentiles, who have no , do naturally what the requires, then these, even though they don’t have , for themselves are !
15 For their lives show that the conduct the dictates is written in their hearts. Their consciences also bear witness to this, for their conflicting thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them
16 on a day when God passes judgment on people’s inmost secrets. (According to the Good News as I proclaim it, he does this through the Messiah Yeshua.)
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rest on and boast about God
18 and know his will and give your approval to what is right, because you have been instructed from the ;
19 and if you have persuaded yourself that you are a guide to the blind, a light in the darkness,
20 an instructor for the spiritually unaware and a teacher of children, since in the you have the embodiment of knowledge and truth;
21 then, you who teach others, don’t you teach yourself? Preaching, “Thou shalt not steal,” do you steal?
22 Saying, “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? Detesting idols, do you commit idolatrous acts?
23 You who take such pride in , do you, by disobeying the , dishonor God? —
24 as it says in the Tanakh, “For it is because of you that God’s name is blasphemed by the Goyim.”
25 For circumcision is indeed of value if you do what says. But if you are a transgressor of , your circumcision has become uncircumcision!
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the , won’t his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
27 Indeed, the man who is physically uncircumcised but obeys the will stand as a judgment on you who have had a b’rit-milah and have written out but violate it!
28 For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical.
29 On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God.
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
If a man is walking by belief, trusting in Yehoshua, is infilled by the Holy Spirit, they will be led to better and better obedience to G-d, and are taking communion in the best way they know how...they do well, not ill.
They are saved, although they will perhaps have very little standing in the Kingdom which is based on obedience. Obeying Yehoshua about the taking of bread and wine in remembrance of Him is still being done, if imperfectly. Mankinds inability to do anything perfect is covered by grace, just as salvation is by grace, a gift, and not something you can earn.
Keeping is a demonstration of love for YHVH and Yehoshua by being obedient to their commands. Presumably, not keeping will make them beggars in the street of the New Jerusalem compared to others that kept as well as trusted in Yehoshua for their salvation...but they will still be in the New Jerusalem.
Therefore, doing the mitvot of taking communion is of most importance, not the manner of doing it. Do we know that Yehoshua used unleavened bread the evening of the day of preparation for Passover, before the feast began? The Last Supper occured on the evening of the 13th day of Aviv, hours before he was crucified on the preparation day for Passover, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which did not begin until the sunset on the evening of the 14th day of Aviv..
Exodus 12:15-18 (CJB)
15 “‘For seven days you are to eat matzah — on the first day remove the leaven from your houses. For whoever eats hametz [leavened bread] from the first to the seventh day is to be cut off from Isra’el.
16 On the first and seventh days, you are to have an assembly set aside for God. On these days no work is to be done, except what each must do to prepare his food; you may do only that.
17 You are to observe the festival of matzah, for on this very day I brought your divisions out of the land of Egypt. Therefore, you are to observe this day from generation to generation by a perpetual regulation.
18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month until the evening of the twenty-first day, you are to eat matzah.
Matthew 5:17-20 (CJB)
17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the — not until everything that must happen has happened.
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the -teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven! Most people in MainC do not keep Passover, or the Feast of Unleavened bread, and do not believe that Yehoshua's last supper was within the confines of the Feast of Unleavened Bread since it was on Tuesday, the 13th, in the evening, before Yehoshua was crucified, they have deduced that Passover was the following evening, and thus not during the Feast of Unleavened Bread . That does not excuse them from not keeping the Moedim, but they are not instructed well in these things, but it bears on the necessity for the use of unleavened bread at all in communion. Yes, I think it a better representation of Yehoshua than leavened bread, but this is my choice...not G-d's requirement.
Consequently, it does not touch their salvation if they are obeying the Ruach as He leads them in other things first. I was one of these torahless Believers once, but have been lead further, just as you have been in the past.
If they do not take communion in a worthy manner...which is discerning the Lord's body, and Yehoshua's sacrifice, they are damned already. But if they use any kind of bread and wine, they are remembering Yehoshua.
It is true that many MainC members are Believers in name only...that does not affect those that do believe, and take the communion in a worthy manner, even if the bread is unleavened, and even if they are uncircumcised in the flesh.
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2014 21:56:12 GMT -8
If the blood taken and the bread taken are not sacrifices, there is no law about taking unleavened bread or leavened bread by us or the MainC people during such a remembrance. Disagree. Any proscriptions concerning the sacrifices would also apply to any remembrance based on those sacrifices. Ex 12:48 "If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it." Argue with God about it. Absolutely no relevance whatsoever.  As to the rest of your post, you are getting pretty free with the accusations here, casting me as someone who is trying to tell you and all manC how to observe communion. Do it any way you please, but when you come on a forum and ask a question don't get miffed if you don't like the answer. Of course mainC doesn't practice remembrance "in a Jewish way." They've spent the last 2000 yrs trying to de-Judaize Jesus, why would they remember Him as a Jew now? Is this the way you want to remember Him? Because they are "a bunch of badly taught children" you then want to teach them some more bad doctrine? And you think going at this with no understanding of the Passover Seder helps how? How can they understand the meaning of an observance based on the third Passover cup when they have no idea there even is a third cup? Nor do they care! Yet you say as long as they are "discerning Yehoshua's body" they are ok. Simply put, they cannot discern what they do not understand, and advocating for their ignorance is unconscionable. Again, you asked so I told you. Further you are teaching false doctrine here, so I am opposed to what you say. Other than that I never told anyone what they can or can't do. Again with the accusations. Where did I set myself up as judge over their salvation? You are reading way too much into everything I say. It says nothing about converting to anything except to what God says they should do. We could argue about what Sha'ul said 'till the cows come home, but it would be fruitless as you seem to take a mainC meaning from his works, while my view is strictly Messianic. That's a rabbit trail I'm not going down right now. Keep it simple: 1. God said it, as I gave references for, and I take Him at His word. You do as you please. 2. flooding your posts with a lot of scriptures does no good, especially when they are not germane to the point at hand. 3. Paul never meant what they taught you in church. Well, not usually, anyhow. Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Apr 23, 2014 22:59:13 GMT -8
If the blood taken and the bread taken are not sacrifices, there is no law about taking unleavened bread or leavened bread by us or the MainC people during such a remembrance. Disagree. Any proscriptions concerning the sacrifices would also apply to any remembrance based on those sacrifices. Ex 12:48 "If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it." Argue with God about it. Absolutely no relevance whatsoever. As to the rest of your post, you are getting pretty free with the accusations here, casting me as someone who is trying to tell you and all manC how to observe communion. Do it any way you please, but when you come on a forum and ask a question don't get miffed if you don't like the answer. Of course mainC doesn't practice remembrance "in a Jewish way." They've spent the last 2000 yrs trying to de-Judaize Jesus, why would they remember Him as a Jew now? Is this the way you want to remember Him? Because they are "a bunch of badly taught children" you then want to teach them some more bad doctrine? And you think going at this with no understanding of the Passover Seder helps how? How can they understand the meaning of an observance based on the third Passover cup when they have no idea there even is a third cup? Nor do they care! Yet you say as long as they are "discerning Yehoshua's body" they are ok. Simply put, they cannot discern what they do not understand, and advocating for their ignorance is unconscionable. Again, you asked so I told you. Further you are teaching false doctrine here, so I am opposed to what you say. Other than that I never told anyone what they can or can't do. Again with the accusations. Where did I set myself up as judge over their salvation? You are reading way too much into everything I say. It says nothing about converting to anything except to what God says they should do. We could argue about what Sha'ul said 'till the cows come home, but it would be fruitless as you seem to take a mainC meaning from his works, while my view is strictly Messianic. That's a rabbit trail I'm not going down right now. Keep it simple: 1. God said it, as I gave references for, and I take Him at His word. You do as you please. 2. flooding your posts with a lot of scriptures does no good, especially when they are not germane to the point at hand. 3. Paul never meant what they taught you in church. Well, not usually, anyhow. Dan C
Then I gave and documented the normal mainC thought, from their point of view...or at least I was trying to. I am sorry that my attempts to keep explaining this only got you more confused.
I will celebrate God's feasts, and take communion as I think fit, as will you. MainC will do as they see fit as well, and I presume we will be told who did it correctly from Yehoshua's point of view at the Bema.
MainC will not bother listening to either of us, because in their eyes we are too Jewish in our thought, and they do not want to change their thinking from a Greco-Roman Catholic base. But beating mainC teachers over the head with your knowledge is not going to do anything but make him want to avoid the complexities of thought that you keep raising. It also will only make him angry, unless he asked for your opinion.
As I said, if they are being taught of the Ruach, they will be led to observance...at least, I presume so, since that is what happened to me, and appears to have happened to you as well. If the Ruach is not being heard by them about that they must not have the infilling of the Ruach, and thus are not saved anyway, or if saved, the Ruach is not concerned with teaching them at this time, but has other concerns to bring up in their lives.
As for Sha'ul, I think him brilliant, but badly interpreted, and obviously changed in some places by the translators to suit their idea of what Sha'ul should say, and thus MainC remains confused.
As for excessive documentation, I thought Yedidyah said to prove things being said by multiple texts.
You are concerned about Passover and the Levitical sacrificial laws in regards to Communion. MainC thought doesn't even go there about Communion, nor do they think it matters under Grace. They are, after all, doing what Yehoshua said to do...aren't they?
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Post by alon on Apr 24, 2014 10:13:15 GMT -8
Questor, you should have said up front you were playing devil's advocate (in this case quite literally!) so we could have discussed it from that viewpoint. I thought you'd gone over to the dark side there. I've never told them about circumcision being an issue, as you are correct that they wouldn't understand. I did sow the pastor at the AoG Ex 34:25. I took him aside in private and showed him once, then let the matter drop. I also told my Nazarene pastor friend the same thing, in private, as an explanation of why I couldn't take communion with them when they used a loaf of leavened bread, breaking off pieces and dipping them in the wine. He understood, and said he'd look into it. We haven't discussed it since. I don't browbeat them with any of this. I simply point out the truth and as you say, either they are sensitive to the leading of the Ruach or they are not. I don't make an issue over not participating in their communions, I simply don't do it. And I don't think any of this will necessarily condemn them to hell. I do think it will effect their eternal reward: Mat 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."I also believe that those who follow false teachings run a much higher risk of being in the many who will cry "Lord, Lord" and be told "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Mat 7:23. But my responsibility ends at telling them, and even that only if they want to listen. Outside of their churches, however, I do have a responsibility to come against false doctrine wherever and whenever they are put forward. Even in their churches I would correct them if they try to portray what I believe (Messianism) falsely. I ran into a visiting instructor who, when he found out I was Messianic got incensed and started reeling off a long list of scriptures. Instead of making a scene, I simply told him to write those all down and I'd be happy to sit and go through them one at a time. He never did. I knew he wouldn't, and it would have been pointless anyhow as most of them were Pauline references. The writings of Paul as we've been given them are convoluted and just confusing enough to be twisted and used to support almost any perverse doctrine you want. Even those, when read in context, don't usually say what they are made out to say. But to those determined to cherry-pick and reinterpret arguing is generally a waste of time. Using scripture to prove a point is one thing. Flooding a discussion with scripture to obfuscate a point is another. Simple, direct and relevant works. Throwing out a bunch would allow your "opponent" to pick out the one or two he wants and topple your whole argument with them. If all I was interested in was "winning an argument", that's how I would handle a flood of scriptural references. Since my goal here is only to exchange information whenever possible, discuss issues and influence others concerning false teachings, and at times adjust my own thinking when shown I'm wrong- instead of attacking a long list I simply ignore it as irrelevant and focus on the primary discussion. It overwhelms most readers anyhow, and I certainly don't have the time to thoughtfully answer cut-and-paste lists. So really throwing lists out generally does you no good. Take that advice as you like, also it's an explanation of why I don't usually (not always- they do have their place at times) bother with shotgun arguments (a.k.a. lists). Dan C |
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