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Post by Questor on Apr 24, 2014 15:09:12 GMT -8
Questor, you should have said up front you were playing devil's advocate (in this case quite literally!) so we could have discussed it from that viewpoint. I thought you'd gone over to the dark side there. I've never told them about circumcision being an issue, as you are correct that they wouldn't understand. I did sow the pastor at the AoG Ex 34:25. I took him aside in private and showed him once, then let the matter drop. I also told my Nazarene pastor friend the same thing, in private, as an explanation of why I couldn't take communion with them when they used a loaf of leavened bread, breaking off pieces and dipping them in the wine. He understood, and said he'd look into it. We haven't discussed it since. I don't browbeat them with any of this. I simply point out the truth and as you say, either they are sensitive to the leading of the Ruach or they are not. I don't make an issue over not participating in their communions, I simply don't do it. And I don't think any of this will necessarily condemn them to hell. I do think it will effect their eternal reward: Mat 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
YHVH told me to do two specific things...to "Write" (although what is unclear), and to 'Become a Good Householder'. (Audibly, and the first command complete with a 3D Vision...very Impressive. I think YHVH thought I wouldn't notice otherwise!)
That leaves me out of any teaching or preaching, and I am glad of it...if you think I can get tangled in trying to write things, you should hear how I speak!
I also believe that those who follow false teachings run a much higher risk of being in the many who will cry "Lord, Lord" and be told "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Mat 7:23. But my responsibility ends at telling them, and even that only if they want to listen. Outside of their churches, however, I do have a responsibility to come against false doctrine wherever and whenever they are put forward. Even in their churches I would correct them if they try to portray what I believe (Messianism) falsely. I ran into a visiting instructor who, when he found out I was Messianic got incensed and started reeling off a long list of scriptures. Instead of making a scene, I simply told him to write those all down and I'd be happy to sit and go through them one at a time. He never did. I knew he wouldn't, and it would have been pointless anyhow as most of them were Pauline references. The writings of Paul as we've been given them are convoluted and just confusing enough to be twisted and used to support almost any perverse doctrine you want. Even those, when read in context, don't usually say what they are made out to say. But to those determined to cherry-pick and reinterpret arguing is generally a waste of time.  perfectly, but to take on the Mishna and Talmud as well as , and turn away from Yehoshua to be in good standing with non-Messianic Jewsand thus, presumably "crucify Yehoshua all over again."
Hebrews 6:1-6 (CJB)
1 Therefore, leaving behind the initial lessons about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of turning from works that lead to death, trusting God,
2 and instruction about washings, s’mikhah, the resurrection of the dead and eternal punishment.
3 And, God willing, this is what we will do.
4 For when people have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Ruach HaKodesh,
5 and tasted the goodness of God’s Word and the powers of the ‘olam haba —
6 and then have fallen away — it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.
The above is what they fear, but they do not understand what it means...that a Believer in Mashiach is saved by Yehoshua's sacrifice, not by what they themselves can do, but rather that what they do in obedience to YHVH and Yehoshua is how they show their trust in that salvation. If they later say, "I am returning to the Mosaic Covenant," and then disregards the salvation they can only receive through Yehoshua, doing only the works of the Mosaic Covenant as a means of salvation, they are crucifying Yehoshua again by their open contempt of Yehoshua...because that is what would be happening. Those MainC Believers that convert to non-Messianic Judaism, and foreswear Yehoshua to do their own righteousness in their own strength do not understand either, and I fear for them greatly.
Using scripture to prove a point is one thing. Flooding a discussion with scripture to obfuscate a point is another. Simple, direct and relevant works. Throwing out a bunch would allow your "opponent" to pick out the one or two he wants and topple your whole argument with them. If all I was interested in was "winning an argument", that's how I would handle a flood of scriptural references. Since my goal here is only to exchange information whenever possible, discuss issues and influence others concerning false teachings, and at times adjust my own thinking when shown I'm wrong- instead of attacking a long list I simply ignore it as irrelevant and focus on the primary discussion. It overwhelms most readers anyhow, and I certainly don't have the time to thoughtfully answer cut-and-paste lists. So really throwing lists out generally does you no good. Take that advice as you like, also it's an explanation of why I don't usually (not always- they do have their place at times) bother with shotgun arguments (a.k.a. lists). Dan C
I don't debate doctrine to win arguments either, but one hopes that using a text to back an opinion or belief will not be used that way on this forum. If someone were to use the text surrounding the red bolded text to prove their thoughts, I would simply draw that person back to the original point I made, and tell him to start a different thread if he wants to expound on a different point.
I hope that as we get to know one another, and see how we post, and get used to what the other means when he quotes Scripture, we at least will not have any 'winning arguments'.[/quote] |
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Post by alon on Apr 24, 2014 22:01:01 GMT -8
A good thing too, or they might try to tar and f eather you! If I so much as bring up what I am doing, and thinking or studying, my friends get really bad attitudes almost instantly, and I'm tired of being snarled at, and then treated as if I ruined their day! I am simply beginning to turn it all over to YHVH. If someone is so nice as to ask, I'll tell them, but as far as I'm concerned these days, I am leaving it up to the Ruach to draw them to a fuller obedience.Mine have tended to not confront me until after they've gotten behind my back, discussed what they think I am up to, then they blindside me with their verdict (a.k.a. stab me in the back). But no one said it would be easy. Who knew that when Yeshua told us if they hate Him they'd hate us too, he was talking about " believers." But then, I was raised in the church, and I can tell you from long experience that if you want to anger Christians, just start telling them the truth. My Nazarine pastor will tell you the same thing, just from a mainC perspective, and my father (a Southern Baptist minister) would have wholeheartedly agreed. We can only do what we can do. Sounds pretty self explanatory, obvious even; but we need to remind ourselves of this constantly. Otherwise guilt and self incrimination will rob us of what joy we do get from the things we can do. Again, we do what we can do. It isn't our responsibility to browbeat everyone. We are just responsible to be available to anyone who wants to know the truth. I pray the Ruach will lead those to me who want to hear. So far, there have been very few, and they are not ready to hear the whole truth, but they are willing to hear my take on many different things. All in God's good time, I suppose. I do need to start remembering them in prayer more often, though. That too is our responsibility. Maybe just a personal preference, but I hate Christianese- probably because I heard so much of it growing up. It sounded phony then, and sounds worse to me now. But that's just me. Whatever works for you ... Some accuse me of Judaizing anyhow, and it is really just a way of marginalizing someone who doesn't agree with them. The  thing is what they really hate is anyone who tries to shake them out of their complacency, on the one hand, and others who fear I may successfully challenge ideas they hold as rabid fanaticism. And they both should be afeared!  Funny thing is I tried to teach on the passage you quoted from a purely mainstream point of view, and was met with open hostility. Even the mainC viewpoint on this, which falls just short of Messianism actually, really flies in the face of what they perceive this to mean: "If you disagree with me, you're going to HELL!" Oh well, I'm sorry to tell you that I got a little hostile back at them. Anger issues, as yet apparently not completely resolved. No problem. At least now I know. That's one thing about writing instead of talking face to face- it allows us to stop and evaluate; to ask "What's going on here? Do I really want to get confrontational with this person, or is something going on I'm unaware of?" Sadly, I lack this filter in face to face talks. But here I can take a moment, even review past posts and say "What th' hey, this doesn't sound right." There have been a couple who were here briefly who tried to spread false doctrine from the start, and I did confront them (but still much nicer than I am wont to be in person)  . I was beginning to wonder about you there for a bit. Glad we cleared it up, and sorry if I was a bit short a few times. You did get the redacted version there, as I was wondering why you were so mainC on the issue of communion. Still, I wasn't kidding when I said before that tact is what you get out of the barn when you want to work with the horses. Hope I wasn't too tactless. Your examples were not too far off in the context of what mainC folk would say though. It is scary how they can twist scripture and read into what we say when defending their cherished traditions (while upbraiding us on keeping those pesky "OT" traditions- or worse, doing what some rabbi said! Guess they never got the word that Yeshua was (and is) a rabbi!  ). Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Apr 25, 2014 21:11:39 GMT -8
Mine have tended to not confront me until after they've gotten behind my back, discussed what they think I am up to, then they blindside me with their verdict (a.k.a. stab me in the back). But no one said it would be easy. Who knew that when Yeshua told us if they hate Him they'd hate us too, he was talking about " believers." But then, I was raised in the church, and I can tell you from long experience that if you want to anger Christians, just start telling them the truth. [/font][/quote] My Nazarine pastor will tell you the same thing, just from a mainC perspective, and my father (a Southern Baptist minister) would have wholeheartedly agreed. We can only do what we can do. Sounds pretty self explanatory, obvious even; but we need to remind ourselves of this constantly. Otherwise guilt and self incrimination will rob us of what joy we do get from the things we can do. Again, we do what we can do. It isn't our responsibility to browbeat everyone. We are just responsible to be available to anyone who wants to know the truth. I pray the Ruach will lead those to me who want to hear. So far, there have been very few, and they are not ready to hear the whole truth, but they are willing to hear my take on many different things. All in God's good time, I suppose. I do need to start remembering them in prayer more often, though. That too is our responsibility. Maybe just a personal preference, but I hate Christianese- probably because I heard so much of it growing up. It sounded phony then, and sounds worse to me now. But that's just me. Whatever works for you ... Some accuse me of Judaizing anyhow, and it is really just a way of marginalizing someone who doesn't agree with them. The thing is what they really hate is anyone who tries to shake them out of their complacency, on the one hand, and others who fear I may successfully challenge ideas they hold as rabid fanaticism. And they both should be afeared! Funny thing is I tried to teach on the passage you quoted from a purely mainstream point of view, and was met with open hostility. Even the mainC viewpoint on this, which falls just short of Messianism actually, really flies in the face of what they perceive this to mean: "If you disagree with me, you're going to HELL!" Oh well, I'm sorry to tell you that I got a little hostile back at them. Anger issues, as yet apparently not completely resolved. That's one thing about writing instead of talking face to face- it allows us to stop and evaluate; to ask "What's going on here? Do I really want to get confrontational with this person, or is something going on I'm unaware of?" Sadly, I lack this filter in face to face talks. But here I can take a moment, even review past posts and say "What th' hey, this doesn't sound right." There have been a couple who were here briefly who tried to spread false doctrine from the start, and I did confront them (but still much nicer than I am wont to be in person) . I was beginning to wonder about you there for a bit. Glad we cleared it up, and sorry if I was a bit short a few times. You did get the redacted version there, as I was wondering why you were so mainC on the issue of communion. I'm not, for myself. But then, I'm thought to be odd to be taking communion when I feel like communing with Yehoshua, and particularly want to praise and thank Him for doing what He did. Taking communion during the Feast of Unleavened bread just makes it automatically unleavened. I have not cared to look for Matza in the past during times that leavened bread was allowed, but that is because I take Yehoshua at His word on 'Do so in remembrance of me" being something we do in remembrance of Him, and not as a sacrifice or offering to G-d, and the fact that the Last Supper was the day before Passover and the Feast of unleavened bread, and it is unlikely that they were using unleavened bread themselves. Most people don't get rid of their leaven until about noon on preparation day. But after our conversations on this, I have no objecting to using Matza instead...I do not feel strongly on the matter at all, and sense no prompting from the Ruach. On the other hand, I will get in some Matza, just in case the moment strikes, and the Ruach does prompt me to use it rather than bread. I will certainly be asking. As for the token repeated circumcision as an adult hatafat dam brit. upon being converted into Judaism...I don't feel the need for it, as I am not converting into Judaism...and I hope that my heart is sufficiently circumcised, and if not, that Grace will cover me from my imperfect observance of
I probably would not refuse communion amongst an assembly, if I went to one, which I tend to avoid like the plague...not just because of the people's views and beliefs, but because all multiple person gatherings stress me out...I have trouble focusing with so much going on. That bang on the head when I broke my neck seems to have altered how I process information...the less to distract me, the easier things are for me to comprehend and cope with. But I would partake under Grace, knowing that it is better for me not to throw a stumbling block in the way of weak believers not doing as I do, or how I understand , to keep them from their honest remembrance of Yehoshua's body and blood being given for the Grace that gives us all the righteousness in Yehoshua.
Still, I wasn't kidding when I said before that tact is what you get out of the barn when you want to work with the horses. Hope I wasn't too tactless. No, that's TACK if you are getting it out of a barn, or a Tack Room! You were very undiplomatic because you were very emotional in your phrasing, but if you notice, I am still talking to you. I do see, however, that using that style of approach to a topic is not persuasive at all...and hence will not be heeded by those easily offended. I was ticked, but I recovered, and then I wrote.
And I too like to go back to a post that ticks me off until I can discard what is said undiplomatically, and simply focus on the facts. Writing is so much better at that than in a conversation where tone and emphasis are like pouring gasoline on a fire.
However, I too manage to screw things up when I am tired or hurting while I write, and I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt. I kept trying to remember that you yell a lot when you are offended, therefore, I might have said something to offend you, and if so, I hope we can both be careful in future.
Your examples were not too far off in the context of what mainC folk would say though. It is scary how they can twist scripture and read into what we say when defending their cherished traditions (while upbraiding us on keeping those pesky "OT" traditions- or worse, doing what some rabbi said! Well...in my case, I still haven't heard a good reason for unleavened bread put forth by you, despite what you have said, as I still don't compare a remembrance of Yehoshua to Yehoshua's sacrifice. If the remembrance was an obvious sacrifice , I would agree with you, which is not something a MainC would do.
On the other hand, I put forth a good reason for using unleavened bread as being better than leavened bread, since it adheres to the idea of our sinless Yehoshua.
Guess they never got the word that Yeshua was (and is) a rabbi! ). Dan C [/quote] Yes, odd that. I often think it is because they are Greco-Paulinites, and not Believers in Yehoshua. That is how I distinguish between the real Beleivers in MainC...those that beleive really look at their Scriptures. They don't like it much, because they have a horrible suspicion that you might be right, and really would not rather look, because then they would have to consider coming up higher.
You might try that idea on a few of the AoG people...just have your supporting quotes handy. |
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Post by alon on Apr 25, 2014 23:03:42 GMT -8
What do they think you are 'up to'? You aren't putting a knife to their throats to convince them you are REALLY sincere, are you? No, they were afraid I was going to use my positions working in their ministries to proselytize people and make them Messianic; this despite the fact I have never betrayed their trust in any of the four ministries I was helping with. But, you know, it's what I might do that counts- even tough the ministry where they put the knife in my back after I helped set them up didn't do as well as it should, the other ministry that supported that one has fallen apart since the incident. The men's ministry, which is the cover org for all of it is hurting since I no longer get up and go in at 6:00 to help with their bacon and sausage gravy breakfast one Shabbat each month. They've left the disabled ministry alone this year because they know if I drop out, it will fold. And in all of it I haven't said even one word against them or their ministries from which I was removed. All the damage is on them, and everyone knows it without me saying a word. I actually do pray for them and support their ministries, as they could be very good. But they are now what they are, and none of it is my fault; and everyone knows it too! When I was doing martial arts, we worked our moves off of a pattern that looked like a spider web inside a circle. You quickly learned that the spaces were as important as the lines. Just find a way to organize it all that works for you. Organization is key to understanding large ammounts of input. I sort both sources and statements according to their likely agenda. For example, many Jews resent us taking on anything they consider Jewish. So when they tell me to just observe the Noahide Laws I tend to rate both them and the statement high for an agenda to keep me from doing the things God said to do in . I give far more weight to statements from Rabbi S. concerning these things, both as a source and in general his statements. Often the case, but at least they're going somewhere. The rapture is one topic most Christians have made up their minds on based on what they HOPE will happen. They are going to be mighty surprised is what I think, however I'd rather concentrate on scripture with more meaning to our/their eternal future- like obedience. They can't understand prophecy until they have a solid understanding of the feasts anyhow; so if they want to go there get them into the feasts as prophecy and see if you can get them interested in Messianism like that. Depends. If you get a good pastor, you can actually get a lot of good information as well as a different perspective. Downside is, the better the message, the harder it can be to discern where his mistakes are. The Nazarene pastor is just a friend. We sometimes argue theology, sometimes just talk. Not the same as a rabbi: Nazarenes are mainC. You may be confusing them with the Natsarim who are like Messianics on steroids. I wish I had face to face access to a good Natsarim person! I just try and be pretty consistent when I talk to anyone. I do use a lot more of the Hebrew Roots stuff because that gets their attention better. I just try not to get them thinking too much like a Hebrew too fast; they tend to panic, have meetings and sharpen their knives. it seems that people seek reassurance in the Scriptures that something is permissable under Grace that was not permitted under ,That right there sums up the mainC attitude towards their "religion" in the vast majority of the cases. The anger issues? BOTH!!!  As for taking communion, you can do it like you want. However after just saying "it seems that people seek reassurance in the Scriptures that something is permissable under Grace that was not permitted under " you might want to reconsider stating "and if not, that Grace will cover me from my imperfect observance of ." Just a thot  LOL, if yer smart, 1st time putting all that tack on a horse just after bringing him in from winter pasture, you'll use a bucketload of tact with him for a while; 'till he gets broke into things again. We were both a bit "undiplomatic" there. I was having issues with all the accusations being laid against me, starting with the recrucifying of Yeshua. Had I known the context (devil's advocate) it would have been ok. And you still do seem to hold most of the beliefs which you espoused there. But I take you at your word about your intent. So we HAVE conversed face to face!? Like I said, the accusations for which I had the wrong context were getting a bit offensive. Now I know; glad I backed off and asked. "Greco-Paulinites," sounds like a set of kitchen cabinets. And they always "have a horrible suspicion that you might be right," and therefore would need to "come up" if we show them the higher path. It scares them half to death. It's just one more reason so many of them hate us. I need to spend time amongst the honest pagans (the ones who don't cloak their disobedience in the aforementioned Christianese) just to clear my head of the Christian garbage sometimes. And just hang in there, the Ruach will eventually convict you about them communions!  Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Apr 26, 2014 1:41:42 GMT -8
Alon,thank you for the belly laugh...I haven't laughed that much in months! What do they think you are 'up to'? You aren't putting a knife to their throats to convince them you are REALLY sincere, are you? No, they were afraid I was going to use my positions working in their ministries to proselytize people and make them Messianic; this despite the fact I have never betrayed their trust in any of the four ministries I was helping with. But, you know, it's what I might do that counts- even tough the ministry where they put the knife in my back after I helped set them up didn't do as well as it should, the other ministry that supported that one has fallen apart since the incident. The men's ministry, which is the cover org for all of it is hurting since I no longer get up and go in at 6:00 to help with their bacon and sausage gravy breakfast one Shabbat each month. YUCK! Do they put bacon and sausage in the gravy? Or just the tradional Bacon, Eggs, and Biscuits with goo?They've left the disabled ministry alone this year because they know if I drop out, it will fold. And in all of it I haven't said even one word against them or their ministries from which I was removed. All the damage is on them, and everyone knows it without me saying a word. I actually do pray for them and support their ministries, as they could be very good. But they are now what they are, and none of it is my fault; and everyone knows it too! When I was doing martial arts, we worked our moves off of a pattern that looked like a spider web inside a circle. You quickly learned that the spaces were as important as the lines. Just find a way to organize it all that works for you. Organization is key to understanding large ammounts of input. I sort both sources and statements according to their likely agenda. For example, many Jews resent us taking on anything they consider Jewish. That seems pretty weird...do they think their image will be smudged if we do things more like they do? Even if what we do is righteous? Or do they not want Messianics to show them up, and thus compete for new members or something? Or is the Jealosy thing that Yehoshua talked about?
So when they tell me to just observe the Noahide Laws I tend to rate both them and the statement high for an agenda to keep me from doing the things God said to do in . That actually sounds like the Greco Paulinists - (Noahide law + Paul on Yehoshua). They skip three out of the first ten commandments, and ignore the rest like Paul didn't know and practice them. They also tend to quote Paul over the Apostles, even where they directly quote Yehoshua, where I don't even consider Paul an Apostle...just an evangelist/commentator. I'm picky...I think that Apostles had to know Yehoshua when He was alive, and just after the Resurrection, when He breathed on them. I don't doubt Paul's anointing and abilities...I just can't stand his arrogance. (Takes one to know one, which is how I know...rubs me raw everytime I read him!)
The rapture is one topic most Christians have made up their minds on based on what they HOPE will happen. They are going to be mighty surprised is what I think, More than surprised, I fear...it's one thing I am very aware of...just how many lightweight MainC people will fall away on the least amount of persecution. Just look at how suppressed the newspeople are being about Christians dying every day in the Middle east...and Jews! No one will talk about it. The amount of rising anti-semitism is really extreme in the West again...not officially in all nations, but it's there, just hidden by verbage. And since MainC remains mostly unaware of the persecution going on now they may find themselves unprepared for even the slightest opposition. They certainly ignore all the atheistic manuevering, like all those new laws will not matter for them, or something.however I'd rather concentrate on scripture with more meaning to our/their eternal future- like obedience. They can't understand prophecy until they have a solid understanding of the feasts anyhow; so if they want to go there get them into the feasts as prophecy and see if you can get them interested in Messianism like that. True, but if they actually are trying to do the New Testament Greco-Paulinite (Everything is Love)kind of walk, as opposed to "Grace for All", and are in the grip of that Darby junk, they will be totally unprepared...not just horrified. Along with obedience to , they need to draw the lines in the sand NOW about just what they will put up with, and what they won't. This too is a practical matter of observance of ...it just is that it is highly colored in symbolism!
I would rather take a stand immediately, than let myself be pushed, and pushed, and persuaded against my will because everyone around me is doing it! How many people are aware that the beast system is being finalized now...and the minute the Fed and the IMF come together on just what money is going to be, we will have the one world currency every worldling think will be just grand, and have the last domino in place, ready for the Adversary to jump on? I know that Abba still has to lift His hand on our protection, but you would think that people might see just how many Westerners are caught up in a belief that it's never going to happen to THEM! And thus could fall away...out of sheer confusion.
(Take a breath, Questor! Breathe! BREATHE!)Depends. If you get a good pastor, you can actually get a lot of good information as well as a different perspective. Downside is, the better the message, the harder it can be to discern where his mistakes are. This is where that violent stomach turning of the Ruach comes in handy...I alwasy DVR everything not on the internet, put it on pause, and check the reference. Then I change the channel if the speaker is really too wrong to absorb anything good from.The Nazarene pastor is just a friend. We sometimes argue theology, sometimes just talk. Not the same as a rabbi: Nazarenes are mainC. You may be confusing them with the Natsarim who are like Messianics on steroids. I wish I had face to face access to a good Natsarim person! Got a good website you could tell me about?I just try and be pretty consistent when I talk to anyone. I do use a lot more of the Hebrew Roots stuff because that gets their attention better. I just try not to get them thinking too much like a Hebrew too fast; they tend to panic, have meetings and sharpen their knives. You mean when they notice that they can't do the shopping on Saturdays anymore, unless it's after sunset, and then it will be too late to go to church on Sunday? And they still want to go to church, so that people will know they are being 'good'? One of my friends is at that stage, and i am having to keep my mouth shut while it is simmering.
it seems that people seek reassurance in the Scriptures that something is permissable under Grace that was not permitted under ,That right there sums up the mainC attitude towards their "religion" in the vast majority of the cases. Well, I'm glad I got that right anyway.
I wish all the pastors in every pulpit would spend some time on "What is YOUR Fruit?" and "Are you DOING what G-d said to do?" Matthew 7:18-20 (CJB)
18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, or a poor tree good fruit.
19 Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire!
20 So you will recognize them by their fruit.
Matthew 7:21 (CJB)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
Such simple sermons, and they will not.As for taking communion, you can do it like you want. However after just saying "it seems that people seek reassurance in the Scriptures that something is permissable under Grace that was not permitted under " you might want to reconsider stating "and if not, that Grace will cover me from my imperfect observance of ." Just a thot Yes...but I know I am trying to put all these mitzvot in place of my pagan ways...MainC people think they really are doing everything okay already. And I am going to buy in Matza, and wait for the Ruach to speak on that. I am not unwilling, just unconvinced.LOL, if yer smart, 1st time putting all that tack on a horse just after bringing him in from winter pasture, you'll use a bucketload of tact with him for a while; 'till he gets broke into things again. :PSorry,
I didn't catch the whole reference there...I haven't ridden a horse since I was a teenager, when my allergies kicked in full force. Break up the tack room door, and tie it on too...half on one side of the saddle, and half on the other. That might help a little, but it sure would be hard to mount up on!We were both a bit "undiplomatic" there. I was having issues with all the accusations being laid against me, starting with the recrucifying of Yeshua. Had I known the context (devil's advocate) it would have been ok. And you still do seem to hold most of the beliefs which you espoused there. No...I don't actually hold a firm belief yet...I can see both sides of the question all too clearly...and to me, there still are some questions that are outside Scripture, that I have yet to be convinced of. You are adopting a rabbinical mindset towards interpreting ...I am just looking at the literal text, and attempting to interpret it directly into a pagan mindset. And I think that it is not a salvation issue, and therefore not something to fight over, but to try and do how it is seen by the individual...there is, even among rabbis, a lot of dissent on a lot of matters because much is left on a case by case basis. It is the same with all decisions of law...I see it in the arguments sent me by my attorney on a lawsuit...so much has to do with what the Appellate decisions were based on, and what cases were cited.
But I take you at your word about your intent. Thank you...it is a great struggle for me, every step, to take what I know is right, and actually get myself to do each commandment whole heartedly, after careful thought about how to do them.
Some are harder for me than others, due to my upbringing. I may be more honest about what I believe and what I do, but having no teaching in actual right and wrong is a major problem...I was raised to be a natural criminal under , and even under Civil Law...just don't get caught, and try not to hurt people too much...it's unkind. Oh, and a lot of Noblesse Oblige. Not right or wrong...just "we just don't do that sort of thing." Deadly to have that ironed into your psyche, along with all the pride and arrogance that goes with it.
I can only assume that the G-d actually knows I want to do well all the things that seem to me to be impossible to do all the time, whole heartedly, and scrupulously, since the Ruach is nudging me where I am supposed to go (just like a progressive politician, except the Ruach is open about it, whereas the politicians lie).. All I know is that everything changed for me in 2006, long after my baptism, long after understanding how the Old and New Testaments were woven inextricably together. I understood it, and looked at it a long time, and then Adonai spoke, and showed me things, and started me in this direction, and the Ruach keeps nudging me onward. But you would be surprised at how much is about heart matters, and points of view that simply have to be discarded. My transgressions are mostly due to ignorance, which I am trying to amend, bit by bit. Those transgressions that are deliberate is me fighting the old dead self that just seems so very alive, repenting, and begining again.
Each little descision to take another step away from who I was is a painful tearing up of who I thought I was, and with very little idea of what I am heading towards. I have no mental picture of how I should be...I just know it is not within the Judaic Culture and Traditions, anymore than it is with Christian Culture and Traditions.
It is also why I am so plain about what I do, and what I am waiting for...that still small voice to lead me out of the confusion I was in for most of my life, learning second and third hand from books what MainC should have been teaching, and wasn't. [/quote]So we HAVE conversed face to face!? "That would have been nice, but no...besides I never argue vehemently EXCEPT about the things I care about. Noisiness, growling and heated discussion, however, is not required, even though I do live in another state. You can yell, but I will not be able to hear you. [/quote]Like I said, the accusations for which I had the wrong context were getting a bit offensive. Now I know; glad I backed off and asked. Me too! A pagan Believer I may be, looking at the verses on the blackboard from the back of the room, and wondering if I will ever figure out how to do any of it appropriately, but I am at least looking , listening, and taking notes. And when no one is looking, I actually try out what I know is right. I mostly find that I do it very badly, and go find a corner in which to lick my wounds. I do however eventually try again, and do just a little better at it. "Greco-Paulinites," sounds like a set of kitchen cabinets. And they always "have a horrible suspicion that you might be right," and therefore would need to "come up" if we show them the higher path. It scares them half to death. It's just one more reason so many of them hate us.
Are we hated for just trying to do what Scripture says? Or for how we tell them they are not doing it? Or for just telling them the difference between what they say, and what they do, and don't do?I need to spend time amongst the honest pagans (the ones who don't cloak their disobedience in the aforementioned Christianese) just to clear my head of the Christian garbage sometimes. And just hang in there, the Ruach will eventually convict you about them communions! I have the feeling He will...who do you think pointed out to me it was more because the unleaved bread remembered a sinless Yehoshua? 
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Post by alon on Apr 26, 2014 9:10:34 GMT -8
YUCK! Do they put bacon and sausage in the gravy? Or just the tradional Bacon, Eggs, and Biscuits with goo? Just the traditional breakfast. But they can't get anybody to help at 6:00 AM except usually a Hebrew Roots guy and sometimes me. We are there fixing a breakfast we can't eat for a bunch of people who are distancing themselves more and more from us, treating us with hostility and disrespect. So I'm backing off, trying to put my efforts where they'll be better used. MainC and Messinanism are like oil and water really. Eventually they have to separate out unless yu are willing to deal with the constant agitation required to keep them mixed; though they are never truly mixed. It's jealousy, but not like you mean it. It is their culture, one that their ancestors have paid a heavy price to keep for almost all their existence. They also see us as part of the culture that has persecuted them for the last 2000 yrs. of that existence. They don't "compete for new converts with us", however if we were to persuade another Jew to believe in Yeshua they'd see us as having caused that person to absolutely have betrayed his culture and his people. I don't think Paul himself was anywhere near as arrogant as the Greco-Roman revisionists make him out to be. If he had been, quite frankly he would have been killed. There had to be many who were still uneasy about accepting him and sharing their secrets. He had after all been killing off their friends and relatives, now he wants to be among them? Had he been so arrogant as Gal 2 portrays him, for example, it is likely they'd have feared him a spy and summarily executed him to protect their families. I used to hate reading him as well. Now I try to see through the Greek filth and see what he really is saying. I'll look and see if any of them survived the last few computer crashes. If I find one I'll PM it because they may teach things at odds with the SoF here. (edit: check your box) I mean obedience, which they take to be a 4 letter word: o-b-d-ns (the ns is like in Hebrew where you have letters that transliterate as 2, like ts or ch; I bet you didn't know we had that when you transliterate English to English!). Oh, I've heard many a sermon on this. But they use their definitions of what we are commanded to do; all based on interpreting the "NT" first, then using that interpretation to delete most of the "OT". Ah ... well, after not being ridden all winter they are a bit tender. Cinch straps and rings tend to rub 'em a bit too hard. If you get on and put the spurs to 'em a bit too soon, you're like to be in for a wilder ride than you'd bargained on! The problem with Noblesse-oblige for us is first, it assumes nobility, which almost none of us are. Then it assumes an obligation which not even most of the true nobility are willing to take on these days. You are free to interpret the Bible as you want and act accordingly. Also consider that many of the apostles were men of true nobility and they changed their minds and followed Yeshua. Just don't give up and let them drag you back down with them. You are hated because you show them the truth. You don't even have to say anything. There is one guy in the men's group that just goes crazy every time I pass on the bacon or ham when we get together. I don't make an issue of it, but he just waits until I pass on it then goes nuts. Then I just tell 'em "There, you see what eating pigs will do to you?" Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Apr 26, 2014 18:00:37 GMT -8
I guess this is why I have such trouble going back to any church. All I see is it not mixing well.
Well, if we are forcing them into a Greco-Roman replacement for their own culture, I can't say I blame them. If they are staying within their culture while becoming Messianic, it's not a betrayal of culture or people. Yehoshua was Jewish, and there is nothing in His teachings that is not in the Tanakh, or prophesied in the Tanakh. Of course, many Jews have a hard time seeing it, being blinded apurpose, but MainC is just as bad about not seeing the Jewish origin of EVERYTHING having to do with Yehoshua...who He was and how He behaved and taught.
It could well have been added by Sha'ul's followers, to explain what they thought needed explaining, and thus turns what might be their pride in Sha'ul as their teacher into making it sound as if Sha'ul thought himself not just equal to the Apostles, but actually better than they for going to the Goyim. It always seems strange to me how much they ignore Kefa's efforts in that direction, and yet Kefa was beloved in Rome, as well as other places outside of Judah.
Unfortunately, my family is direct line from a German Baron…not that it makes anyone truly noble…there were many in the late 1800’s. That is a matter of character, of which I have little. My Dad was a good guy as men go, but the family pride of origin was there, and emphasized in everything we were supposed to do…and it was all unconsciously done to us. His father, from what I understand was a good example of what all aristocracy are not supposed to be…but he had wealth and power at the time, if not a title, so it was considered a good thing.
What is still passed down, unfortunately, is the sense of responsibility that goes with the Noblesse Oblige, along with the family pride and arrogance. My elder brother has it in spades, poor man, and it does nothing but get in his way, as it did in mine before I learned it was not a good thing.
I have been told that I tend to bring out class distinction feelings in others, yet I don’t think that way…it is a mimicking of what each of my family has passed down in attitude…and it gives me nothing but the feeling of having to make sure others are okay without having the power to do anything about it. All the bad, I think, inherited, and none of the good…if there is good in the aristocracy at all, which these days I don’t seem to see.
It has been interesting discussing this, for I have received several insights about letting the sense of responsibility trained into me go no further than my ability does, and that should take another burden off me that I never wanted, and didn’t really understand. I have brothers and sisters in Yehoshua that are in need, and where I can help them, that will be good…but I can shed the feeling that somehow I am supposed to do something about it when they won’t, or can’t do so themselves, when Adonai has not enabled me to do so.
Abba may use me to help them, but in the end, it is His responsibility, not mine, and I can toss the problem to Him, and very thankfully too. It is interesting to see that I may have been presumptuous in the extreme to attempt to do more than is required from Scripture…Tanakh and Brit Chadashah…particularly since Abba has not assigned me to take care of anyone specifically. I have other duties, and can step back, and stay out of Abba’s way. I can’t know, of course, how much I have been interfering with His purposes, but I can gratefully make way for Him now to do what needs to be done, and toss in what I can do as the Ruach leads me.
Yes, that is a blessing that freedom of religion gives us at present…and me being separated from my worldly family, and from most Christians, I am free to find my own way with the Ruach. There are difficulties in that…I cannot assume that anyone is right…not even the Jews, since they have acquired Culture and History since the was written down which is that is not mine, and not necessarily Scriptural.
But since I don’t take any of the MainC stuff as right, either, it just makes me slow to adopt changes in thought and behavior. I simply study each question on how to obey a commandment, and adapt my behavior, and when that is done, move on to the next commandment. I don’t want to make it sound as though I am merely adding on one of the commandments at a time, though…I am attacking my pagan practices in a lot of directions at once. Just going into a Sh’mitta year is at Rosh Hashanah this year is a bit of a struggle…all my Fruit trees are going to be bearing well next year having made it to their fifth year, so I could legally partake of a harvest, but it will be Sh’mitta, and is thus a bit frustrating. But it is not as if Abba hasn’t provided enough to go around the situation. I press down harder on a lot of different commandments, straining to break out of my pagan mold.
And I have to very carefully study all that is written and taught as well, as I am not looking for supports to my trust in Yehoshua, but how to better walk after Him in principle and character. Fortunately, Abba evidently made me to be both good at studying and working with the Ruach to work on a non-pagan, non-Jewish, non-Christian way of following …at least to the extent that one can do such a thing. Perhaps my writing will be bearing on it for some reason…I can’t know.
I value the various cultures too much to toss out Culture and Tradition of any type except where it gets in the way of the simplest means of obedience…without ritual and tradition unless it adds to the performance of a Mitzvah…such as in the Moedim.
When my Dad died almost two years ago, I had an immense sense of freedom of not having to adapt to other people’s beliefs and expectations anymore. I suppose I have put myself outside the camp of all of the Cultures and Traditions, and try to hold onto only what is scriptural. I read about what other’s do, talk about to Abba for a long period of time while I consider what to do, and how to do it. It used to feel like a lonely business, but I continue to see that I actually need to separate more…from Mystery Babylon, I suppose you would call it, and that will make my obedience easier as well.
And theirs is the example and teaching I am studying…remembering always that they were Abiding Jews. MainC keeps forgetting that.
I won’t say that it is impossible for that to happen…I would say rather that I am closely guarded, and seeking further separation to G-d. A great deal of what I hear simply sheets off of me like water off a duck, without effort…a great blessing of the Ruach.
I am by nature a bit of a loner, with scholarly tastes, and have had a great deal of practice in getting to like Abba’s company over most others. My family are not Believers, and fortunately live in another state, so I have no pressure there. And my friends, bless them, have gotten used to me, particularly since I do not try to tell them what to do, but instead am explaining what I am doing because of what has been pointed out to me by the Ruach. Just telling them what I am doing and why causes enough tension.
I would like them to keep Shabbat and the Moedim correctly, (I want me to keep them correctly too!) both so they would be in obedience to one of the main markers of a Believer in YHVH, but also so I could celebrate Shabbat with them. They separated from Christmas the last two years, and have come to understand my distaste for the garbage animals eaten in our culture…The Ruach managed to make them sicken over it all.
They didn’t even attempt the Passover, although they were aware of my efforts, and difficulties, but they went Vegetarian for an Easter meal. It so happens that they are much taken by Daniel and his friends when they asked for different food from the Babylonians…but we are all into organic food to the extent we can grow it, so that helps too. So, there is tension in our relationship, but they are also moving ever so slightly into obedience to . They are also finding little to interest them in their Church, but they are under family pressure, and I know that is difficult.
Abba peeled off career and spouse from me in the aftermath of my auto accident 18 years ago…19 years this June, and having no children, it leaves me isolated enough to pick and choose my way, and I am in the unique position of doing so without upbringing in any Church or Belief. I remain just your basic pagan trying to become less pagan by shedding all that goes with the family traditions I no longer have to support, and the church traditions that I never was instructed in. More and more I ignore what is happening in the world, which does nothing but cause me aggravation. I keep a Watchman’s watch, of course, but I simply watch global macro-politics, and thereby do not have to do more than pray for all of what is happened out there. Watching local news merely makes me pray a lot, and end up stressed over things I can do nothing about.
My family traditions had all the pagan accoutrements…Christmas and Easter, but with only the outer show…and that mostly a display of wealth and family tradition. I simply stay in the country on my five acres, grow stuff, and study or write. It is a very welcome change from the life I was brought up to…completely worldly, and all tied up in the financial world to boot. I am blessed to be able to turn away from all that, and simply rely on Abba to take care of me, by enabling me to do what is necessary, but no more.I never expected to be noticed at all, so to me it is a surprise. I always thought being hated would be more a part of actual persecution, so this idea will take some getting used to.
Being in disagreement with a spouse I have understood…mine was a pagan without desire to seek Adonai, and got bored with my interest in seeking and finding. After the accident the division between us became critical, since vows don’t matter much these days in the Pagan world.
It is also true that in attempting to find a church to attend in my younger years, I asked questions that were not convenient, and was cold shouldered in every attempt, but I didn’t realize that I was evoking hatred. It is a strange thought, but explains a great deal of what I have experienced.
I imagine it is so that you don’t get angry…I always use humor to deflect strong emotion. Ah well, you are doing what you can do, and I admire your support of your wife’s connection to AoG. Perhaps when you no longer get angry at the AoG members, you will embarrass her less, and she will become less irritated with you. It’s a thought, at least.
As for the ministries you support, I think that is particularly well done when you know you are swimming against a tide of mis-understanding. I will pray that it becomes easier for you.
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perfectly, but to take on the Mishna and Talmud as well as 
thing is what they really hate is anyone who tries to shake them out of their complacency, on the one hand, and others who fear I may successfully challenge ideas they hold as rabid fanaticism. And they both should be afeared! 
. I was beginning to wonder about you there for a bit. Glad we cleared it up, and sorry if I was a bit short a few times. You did get the redacted version there, as I was wondering why you were so mainC on the issue of communion. Still, I wasn't kidding when I said before that tact is what you get out of the barn when you want to work with the horses. Hope I wasn't too tactless.
