Corn From Heaven

[Deleted]

I am seeing something with regards to the KJV. You all may have me checking more often when I read into the translation.

Last night I was doing the studies for the ladies bible study for this morning. The person who put the teaching and such together used a very interesting thought that I had to double check for myself. She stated that the Israelites ate cornflakes and that it was corn from heaven which was translated that way in the KJV. The reference is to Psalms 78:24

"And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven."

When I saw that I was totally surprised. I was like, "Seriously! Corn from heaven?" Other translations use bread from heaven or manna from heaven. And to say that God gave them cornflakes?

Any other verses that I need to take notice?

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

Mar 5, 2014 17:48:07 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

I am seeing something with regards to the KJV. You all may have me checking more often when I read into the translation.

Last night I was doing the studies for the ladies bible study for this morning. The person who put the teaching and such together used a very interesting thought that I had to double check for myself. She stated that the Israelites ate cornflakes and that it was corn from heaven which was translated that way in the KJV. The reference is to Psalms 78:24

"And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven."

When I saw that I was totally surprised. I was like, "Seriously! Corn from heaven?" Other translations use bread from heaven or manna from heaven. And to say that God gave them cornflakes?

Any other verses that I need to take notice?

Moriah Ruth

Y-y-y-ep! Mat 12:1-8. Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1-5 all talk about "Jesus walking through the corn". It is one of the main events they base permission for Sunday worship on; when Yeshua said "For the Son of Man is Lord of Shabbat!" It was just after this that He said "Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat." We all are familiar with the proofs they were wrong about their interpretations of these sayings, so unless someone asks I won't go into Shabbat vs. Sunday worship.

However, I will say that the translators of the KJV were extremely ignorant men. Not stupid, nor uneducated; but willfully and woefully ignorant. They had come out of the Roman dominated period with no understanding of the people and times they were interpolating. After reading and translating God's love for the Jews, His unending promises to them and warnings to those who would do them harm; after all this they still held to the anti-Semitism and replacement theology of the Roman church! They knew nothing about Israel, and were still persecuting Jews rather than asking them about their history or people.

The New World was still "new" at the time of the KJV's completion (early 1600's), and corn had been newly introduced to Europe from the Americas, so it was probably a fairly exotic grain to them. My guess is that rather than look into it, they simply wrote down the most exotic grain they could to fit into their view of what had to be to them an exotic land in a romantic time- corn. Half a globe away is a pretty close miss, right?

Seriously. My wife is British, as her dad settled in the UK after escaping Hitler. The misconceptions the British hold to this day about anything removed from their islands is amazing! You'd think after centuries of empire they'd be a bit more educated about such things, but ... . So I can absolutely see them doing this. I don't even think it was in the least malevolent- they were just ignorant!

But that is my opinion. I'm sure any Brits reading this will say I am an ignorant Anglophobe. No problem; I'll just get them talking about the French and they'll soon forget about me and we'll both be happy!

Dan C

[Questor]

Mar 5, 2014 22:43:03 GMT -8 alon said:

Mar 5, 2014 17:48:07 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

I am seeing something with regards to the KJV. You all may have me checking more often when I read into the translation.

Last night I was doing the studies for the ladies bible study for this morning. The person who put the teaching and such together used a very interesting thought that I had to double check for myself. She stated that the Israelites ate cornflakes and that it was corn from heaven which was translated that way in the KJV. The reference is to Psalms 78:24

"And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven."

When I saw that I was totally surprised. I was like, "Seriously! Corn from heaven?" Other translations use bread from heaven or manna from heaven. And to say that God gave them cornflakes?

Any other verses that I need to take notice?

Moriah Ruth

Y-y-y-ep! Mat 12:1-8. Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1-5 all talk about "Jesus walking through the corn". It is one of the main events they base permission for Sunday worship on; when Yeshua said "For the Son of Man is Lord of Shabbat!" It was just after this that He said "Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat." We all are familiar with the proofs they were wrong about their interpretations of these sayings, so unless someone asks I won't go into Shabbat vs. Sunday worship.

However, I will say that the translators of the KJV were extremely ignorant men. Not stupid, nor uneducated; but willfully and woefully ignorant. They had come out of the Roman dominated period with no understanding of the people and times they were interpolating. After reading and translating God's love for the Jews, His unending promises to them and warnings to those who would do them harm; after all this they still held to the anti-Semitism and replacement theology of the Roman church! They knew nothing about Israel, and were still persecuting Jews rather than asking them about their history or people.

The New World was still "new" at the time of the KJV's completion (early 1600's), and corn had been newly introduced to Europe from the Americas, so it was probably a fairly exotic grain to them. My guess is that rather than look into it, they simply wrote down the most exotic grain they could to fit into their view of what had to be to them an exotic land in a romantic time- corn. Half a globe away is a pretty close miss, right?

Seriously. My wife is British, as her dad settled in the UK after escaping Hitler. The misconceptions the British hold to this day about anything removed from their islands is amazing! You'd think after centuries of empire they'd be a bit more educated about such things, but ... . So I can absolutely see them doing this. I don't even think it was in the least malevolent- they were just ignorant!

But that is my opinion. I'm sure any Brits reading this will say I am an ignorant Anglophobe. No problem; I'll just get them talking about the French and they'll soon forget about me and we'll both be happy!

Dan C

Blessedly, for those of us who use the NKJV on Christian Forums where the local Christians virtually worship the KJV /NKJV translations, it does say 'Bread from heaven'.  

And you are right about the British, and the French.  A pity we American's are so shy and demure, and deferential that we have no such insular habits, and always work to put the local verbage in place, so as not to affront others by our self gratified state.  Right?

[alon]

Mar 6, 2014 0:50:35 GMT -8 Questor said:

And you are right about the British, and the French. A pity we American's are so shy and demure, and deferential that we have no such insular habits, and always work to put the local verbage in place, so as not to affront others by our self gratified state. Right?

Well, there is nice Americans, then there's me ...

But hey, I mean well!

Dan C

edit: by the way, I do use a NKJV Study Bible. It is very readable, and they did correct a lot of things like "corn" instead of wheat in biblical Israel.

[Deleted]

Thank you Alon and Questor for sharing your thoughts.

[jimmie]

Corn:

As is the case with most words "corn" has many meanings. It could be Maize the new world plant that "corn on the cob" comes from. Or it could be any of several cereal plants producing edible seeds such as wheat, rye, oats, or barley in which case "corn" is interchangeable with "grain". It could be something preserved and season with granulated salt or a salt brine as in "corned beef". Or maybe a growth on your foot. The meaning comes from the context and settings. "Corn" did not take on the meaning of Maize until it was introduce from the New World. Thus "corn" in the Old World means grain. In the Bible "corn" means "grain" not "Maize".

Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

You rub wheat, rye, oats, and barley in your hand to remove the husk from each grain. This will not work on ears of corn Maize.

The KJV translators were not as ignorant as we might think.

[Yedidyah]

Shalom Jimmie,
Do you have a historical reference to prove what you are saying? I have heard people say this claim before but not sure if we can prove it one way or the other.
So the next question is would you have a problem with any translation that changes it to wheat for people to better understand without a background on the idea that corn means any grains?



Yedidyah

[alon]

Score one for the Christians.

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

corn (n.1) Look up corn at Dictionary.com"grain," Old English corn, from Proto-Germanic *kurnam "small seed" (cf. Old Frisian and Old Saxon korn "grain," Middle Dutch coren, German Korn, Old Norse korn, Gothic kaurn), from PIE root *gre-no- "grain" (cf. Old Church Slavonic zruno "grain," Latin granum "seed," Lithuanian žirnis "pea"). The sense of the Old English word was "grain with the seed still in" (e.g. barleycorn) rather than a particular plant.

Locally understood to denote the leading crop of a district. Restricted to the indigenous "maize" in America (c.1600, originally Indian corn, but the adjective was dropped), usually wheat in England, oats in Scotland and Ireland, while Korn means "rye" in parts of Germany. Maize was introduced to China by 1550, it thrived where rice did not grow well and was a significant factor in the 18th century population boom there. Cornflakes first recorded 1907. Corned beef so called for the "corns" or grains of salt with which it is preserved; from verb corn "to salt" (1560s).

So good catch Jimmie. Thanks for the correction.

Guess I too can be ignorant; however the condition isn't terminal unless we allow it to become so.

Dan C

[Yedidyah]

Shalom!
From what I have found Jimmie is right on the corn comments being a correct translation for its day.
So corn covered all grains at that time, good to know if you are reading the KJV or Tyndale version from those days.
I think it is better in the new translations to go with wheat simply because we no longer live in those days and it could lead to confusion
At least it is not a biblical error regardless of how one wants to translate.

Yedidyah

[jimmie]

Any good dictionary will help with definitions.

Here is a good source:

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Changing the word “corn” to “grain” is not going to clarify anything. The word grain also has more than one meaning. It will still take context to determine what is meant by the word “grain”. I could be talking about plants, seeds, wood, sand, sugar, small amounts, a unit of weight (0.00285 ounce), leather, stone, fabric, color, texture or a person’s character. It makes no sense to constrain the meaning of a word to just one. No language that I am aware does that, not even Hebrew.

[jimmie]

Not sure what is going on. Alon's and Yedidyah's posts didn't show up, until after I made the above post. I not trying to beat a dead horse.

Jimmie

[Deleted]

When I read the word corn, I think of the kernel of corn that is off the corn cob. For me I read and understand things literally. So if the KJV reads corn then I am going to think corn of the cob corn. I am not going to think that it is wheat, oats, bran, etc.

In the ancient Hebrew language what word was used for manna or bread of heaven?

I also find it interesting that only the KJV uses the word corn in the verse, "And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven." Psalms 78:24, where in other translations it uses manna from heaven or bread from heaven.

Now to think of it, could the manna or bread from heaven be made from corn or another type of grain? Just a question that ran through my thoughts.

Also I do see and understand what Jimmie is saying. However, back in King James' time they spoke old English and corn did mean any type of grain. So if this is the case, than that was for their time period and their meaning of their old English. We all know that the English language has changed a lot sense King James' time to where what we call modern English, where corn could mean a whole slew of things.

So let's take this further. At the time of Moses, they spoke ancient Hebrew, what did the word manna mean and what exactly was the manna? What was it made out of? We need to look at the time period of Moses to really know what the term manna even meant. I am more interested in the ancient Hebrew language of Moses time when it was written, not King James' time period. Which the two types of languages, Hebrew and English, had two different meanings and wording. I hope I am making sense.

It is also interesting to see that only the KJV uses the word corn in all the other verses also, such as, "Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second Sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands."

I had checked even the most popular translations that most people would use and they use the term and words wheat, wheat field and grain fields. No where does it use corn fields or corn.

Now I grew up on a farm. My uncle used the back property for his fields. He grew corn, wheat and oats. Let me show you something very interesting. I'm going to use some verses to show you what I am getting at.

First we will use the KJV of, "Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second Sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands."

You cannot pluck or rub corn off the cob with your hands as easily as you can with wheat, oats and barley. You would have to husk the corn, and pull the kernels off. You can only rub and take the husks off of the wheat, oats and barley. It is easy to come off when you do this, much easier that corn. With corn it takes more work, where with wheat it is easy work. All you do is pull the head of the wheat, oats or barley with your hand and rub the grains gently in your hands where the chaff is separated. Then you just take the grain, eat it and throw away the chaff.

Let me show you what I mean with the translations that I found.

We will start with the Amplified bible.

Luke 6:1, "ONE SABBATH while Jesus was passing through the fields of standing grain, it occurred that His disciples picked some of the spikes and ate [of the grain], rubbing it out in their hands.

Corn does not have spikes, only wheat, oats and barley. Corn has tassels, which with some corn you take the tassels off when they are younglings. Also corn has husks which protects the corn inside. Wheat, oats and barley do not have the type of husks that corn does.

New Living Translation, Luke 6:1, "One Sabbath day as Jesus was walking through some grain fields, his disciples broke off heads of grain, rubbed off the husks in their hands, and ate the grain."

Again you can only do this with wheat, oats and barley, not corn.

Common English Translation, Luke 6:1, "One Sabbath, as Jesus was going through the wheat fields, his disciples were picking the heads of wheat, rubbing them in their hands, and eating them."

Here in this translations it uses wheat fields and heads of wheat.

Now lets go to the Complete Jewish bible. "One Shabbat, while Yeshua was passing through some wheat fields, his talmidim began plucking the heads of grain, rubbing them between their hands and eating the seeds.

Again, you cannot do this with corn, only wheat, barley and oats.

If one is a farmer or grew up and did farm work they would know what I am talking about.

This is just my thoughts on the matter.

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

I did an interesting search on manna. According to Strong’s, the word in Hebrew is man (mem nun); and is the same word every time, from the first time they saw it on.

H4478 מן mân mawn From H4100; literally a whatness (so to speak), that is, manna (so called from the question about it): - manna.

So, it just pretty much means “something”?

tse’ir (Junior)- “Mom, have we got something to eat?”
imahot (Mom, with thick Jewish mom accent)- “Every day he asks, and every day I tell him … yes!, we've got ‘something’ falling out from the skies!”

Exd 16:15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.

And just so we don’t get too complacent with the verbiage, the word translated bread is:

H3899 לחם lechem lekh'-em From H3898; food (for man or beast), especially bread, or grain (for making it): - ([shew-]) bread, X eat, food, fruit, loaf, meat, victuals. See also H1036.

Exd 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

Num 11:7 And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.

Except I looked up bdellium and it was probably amber, but since they couldn’t explain it so I knew what it was let’s just forget about that and call it white.

Jos 5:12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.

And so we are back to corn, and fruit (which probably doesn’t really mean “fruit,” but organic edible produce).

So any way, they ate this manna for forty years, and apparently it killed them:

Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

What … ? I’m just telling ya’ll what it says!

Dan C

[Deleted]

Hi Alon,

"Jos 5:12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year."

This is taken from the KJV of course.

"Then the manna ceased on the day after they had eaten the produce of the land; and the children of Israel no longer had manna, but they ate the food of the land of Canaan that year. Joshua 5:12 NKJV
This translation uses produce of the land.

The Amplified bible, "And the manna ceased on the day after they ate of the produce of the land; and the Israelites had manna no more, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year." Joshua 5:12

English Standard Version, "And the manna ceased the day after they ate of the produce of the land. And there was no longer manna for the people of Israel, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year." Joshua 5:12

NASB, "The manna ceased on the day after they had eaten some of the produce of the land, so that the sons of Israel no longer had manna, but they ate some of the yield of the land of Canaan during that year." Joshua 5:12

NIV, "The manna stopped the day after they ate this food from the land; there was no longer any manna for the Israelites, but that year they ate the produce of Canaan." Joshua 5:12

Now lets go to the Jewish perspective.

Orthodox Jewish Bible, "And the manna ceased on the following day after they had eaten of the produce of HaAretz; neither had the Bnei Yisroel manna any more; but they did eat of the increase of Eretz Kena'an that year

Complete Jewish Bible, "The following day, after they had eaten food produced in the land, the man ended. From then on the people of Isra'el no longer had man; instead, that year, they ate the produce of the land of Kena'an." Joshua 5:12

So all the other translations use produce of the land. Again KJV uses the word CORN. Which again the OLD ENGLISH term that was used at the time of King James. Ancient Hebrew used produce of the land.

Anyway, I need to scram or I will be late for work. I will be back later. Toodles.

Moriah Ruth



Moriah Ruth

[Yedidyah]

Mar 9, 2014 5:34:32 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

Hi Alon,

"Jos 5:12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year."

This is taken from the KJV of course.

"Then the manna ceased on the day after they had eaten the produce of the land; and the children of Israel no longer had manna, but they ate the food of the land of Canaan that year. Joshua 5:12 NKJV
This translation uses produce of the land.

The Amplified bible, "And the manna ceased on the day after they ate of the produce of the land; and the Israelites had manna no more, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year." Joshua 5:12

English Standard Version, "And the manna ceased the day after they ate of the produce of the land. And there was no longer manna for the people of Israel, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year." Joshua 5:12

NASB, "The manna ceased on the day after they had eaten some of the produce of the land, so that the sons of Israel no longer had manna, but they ate some of the yield of the land of Canaan during that year." Joshua 5:12

NIV, "The manna stopped the day after they ate this food from the land; there was no longer any manna for the Israelites, but that year they ate the produce of Canaan." Joshua 5:12

Now lets go to the Jewish perspective.

Orthodox Jewish Bible, "And the manna ceased on the following day after they had eaten of the produce of HaAretz; neither had the Bnei Yisroel manna any more; but they did eat of the increase of Eretz Kena'an that year

Complete Jewish Bible, "The following day, after they had eaten food produced in the land, the man ended. From then on the people of Isra'el no longer had man; instead, that year, they ate the produce of the land of Kena'an." Joshua 5:12

So all the other translations use produce of the land. Again KJV uses the word CORN. Which again the OLD ENGLISH term that was used at the time of King James. Ancient Hebrew used produce of the land.

Anyway, I need to scram or I will be late for work. I will be back later. Toodles.

Moriah Ruth



Moriah Ruth

Shalom!
In this context that you have brought up the word is translated as "PRODUCE" the old corn does not work in this area. It is not even the word for any type of grain in the text. There is not a person I know that would use the word corn to explain any type of grains like wheat or barley today. So I don't think there is anything wrong with not using the word in newer translations since it was not the word used in the original text but rather something that was used at the time of the translation period of KJV. So the NKJV has fixed some of these confusing words and made it easier for some people to understand.

Have a blessed day everyone!

Yedidyah