Magic

[meaguyyeah]

I am in full agreement with that magic, sorcery, necromancy,, ect. are abominations in the site of our King. I have ideas of why these are wrong, but I was wondering if anyone could say somethings about this subject to give me a more concrete understanding of why magic and other things of this nature are wrong.

Some verses on the matter are Sh'mot 22:18, Vayikra 19:31; 20:6,
D'varim 18:9-14, Mikhah 3:7, and Galatians 5:19-21.

[messianicmama]

I don't have anything concrete but my belief is that these things were used and are used by other religious groups (pagan) and they tap into demonic realms. We are not to worship Adonai the way the pagans worship their gods and we are to keep our temples holy and free of idolatrous things.

[malachib]

Prayer (used by virtually every religion), temples, sacrifices, tithes, special clothing, religious heiarchy, sacred texts, urim & thumim all have counter-parts in other religions, but are acceptable. I don't know why about magic (what is your current definition on magic?)

[alon]

As mamma said, they "tap into demonic realms", and are a form of demon worship/idolatry. Furthermore, the whole point is that demons allow the worshiper an illusion of power and control, the point of which is generally revenge or the acquisition of wealth or dominance. We are to depend on God for our position, authority, provision, as well as to defend us. Vengeance is whose ... ? Who are we to glorify, ourselves or God?

There are only two sides in this fight, and no middle ground. You are for God or the enemy. There are no other choices.

Dan C

[alon]

May 25, 2013 14:09:44 GMT -8 malachib said:

Prayer (used by virtually every religion), temples, sacrifices, tithes, special clothing, religious heiarchy, sacred texts, urim & thumim all have counter-parts in other religions, but are acceptable. I don't know why about magic (what is your current definition on magic?)

malachi, let's start over...

I'm going to ask you a question, and please do not take offense. Is English your primary language?

I ask because at first reading this almost sounds like you think magic should be ok, as it is in God's worship as well as demons (which is definitely NOT the case). But it could also be taken as you're not too sure. Could you please clarify what you mean here?

Dan C

[malachib]

Alon,

What is so hard to understand about my comment? Prayer, etc are used or have parallels in other religions that predate the giving of the , but G-d is fine with them. Not magic though, and I don't know why. He allows some forms of worshipped used by pagans, but not others is the point. Try reading what I wrote instead of guessing what I am trying to say. I'm an open book, no secret meanings to my posts.

RAMBAM believed essentially G-d allowed/commanded sacrifices (which was a predominant pagan custom) because idolatry was so entrenched into our being we couldn't imagine life without it. So, He modified how it was done but kept the same practice & essence. Here RAMBAM states G-d uses pagan customs at His will. RAMBAM didn't win many friends with his thoughts here, but made some interesting observations.

You can believe the use of magic dips into demons & that's fine. But the Scriptures don't state it as such, so I would caution sounding so firm on a topic the scriptures don't state as plainly as you.

[messianicmama]

I can already tell that this thread is going to end up with people squabbling instead of actually discussing the topic. I, fir one, would really like to hear everyone's thoughts on magic, so could we please focus on that instead of attacking various replies? Pretty please?

[malachib]

Sounds good to me.

So what is the Biblical and Jewish definition of magic? Are people like Cris Angel & David Blaine practicing magic? Are illusionists in error? Is performing card tricks evil?
Some say yes, at the very least because they invoke the word "magic" as a selling point.

If the story is meant to be taken literally, I don't know why G-d allowed Samuel to be reached after his death by a Necro.

Some have commented that "true magic" is an assault on the mind & perception & causes brainwashing. If this is the case, then we have all fallen victim to it (religion, politics, governmental systems, loyalties to country/race/ethnicity, etc).

[smashingjerry]

May 26, 2013 8:45:59 GMT -8 malachib said:

Sounds good to me.

So what is the Biblical and Jewish definition of magic? Are people like Cris Angel & David Blaine practicing magic? Are illusionists in error? Is performing card tricks evil?
Some say yes, at the very least because they invoke the word "magic" as a selling point.

If the story is meant to be taken literally, I don't know why G-d allowed Samuel to be reached after his death by a Necro.

Some have commented that "true magic" is an assault on the mind & perception & causes brainwashing. If this is the case, then we have all fallen victim to it (religion, politics, governmental systems, loyalties to country/race/ethnicity, etc).

I'm hoping this may help: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10264-magic

[alon]

malachib,

malachib said:

Alon, What is so hard to understand about my comment?

Your comments tend to be disjointed and all over the board. You have a problem with my asking for clarification before I tear apart what you say?

malachib said:

Prayer (used by virtually every religion), temples, sacrifices, tithes, special clothing, religious heiarchy, sacred texts, urim & thumim all have counter-parts in other religions, but are acceptable.

Acceptable to who? God never sanctioned or condoned any kind of worship to anyone or anything other than to Himself. Not even to things made by Him or representing Him; and especially not to other gods, idols, or powers.

malachib said:

Prayer, etc are used or have parallels in other religions that predate the giving of the , but G-d is fine with them.

Show me where God is "fine" with worshiping anyone besides Himself.

malachib said:

Not magic though, and I don't know why.

He allows some forms of worshipped used by pagans, but not others is the point. Try reading what I wrote instead of guessing what I am trying to say. I'm an open book, no secret meanings to my posts.

New thought, you needed a new paragraph. And I did read what you wrote- try writing clearly. Alternatively, you could take the offer to clarify when extended.

Those forms of “pagan worship” were copied from the worship of God, not other way around. God doesn’t copy ha satan, and to say or even imply that He does is blasphemy.

malachib said:

RAMBAM believed essentially G-d allowed/commanded sacrifices (which was a predominant pagan custom) because idolatry was so entrenched into our being we couldn't imagine life without it. So, He modified how it was done but kept the same practice & essence. Here RAMBAM states G-d uses pagan customs at His will. RAMBAM didn't win many friends with his thoughts here, but made some interesting observations.

Rambam can be wrong as well as the next man.

Hebrews 9:22 CJB In fact, according to the , almost everything is purified with blood; indeed, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:7 In union with him, through the shedding of his blood, we are set free - our sins are forgiven; this accords with the wealth of the grace.

God asked for the shedding of blood of sacrifices to cover sins, looking forward to HaMoshiac making the ultimate sacrifice to remove our sins. Pagan sacrifices were made to honor unholy gods. Often human sacrifices were required, the ultimate evil. You cannot take shallow comparisons and equate worship of the One God with that of petty, evil gods.

malachib said:

You can believe the use of magic dips into demons & that's fine. But the Scriptures don't state it as such, so I would caution sounding so firm on a topic the scriptures don't state as plainly as you.

Well, I would caution you against making statements that equate worship of God with that of demons, as well as that go against His Word.

Just a few of the places where magic is shown to be evil, even demonic in the Bible:

Exodus 7: 8 ADONAI said to Moshe and Aharon, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, 'Perform a miracle,' tell Aharon to take his staff and throw it down in front of Pharaoh, so that it can become a snake." ... -Aharon threw down his staff in front of Pharaoh and his servants, and it turned into a snake. 11 But Pharaoh in turn called for the sages and sorcerers; and ... 12 Each one threw his staff down, and they turned into snakes. But Aharon's staff swallowed up theirs.

Note that, according to God and Pharaoh, God performed a miracle. The “sorcerers”(by definition ones who use magic) came against God, and lost!

Acts 8:5 Now Philip went down to a city in Shomron and was proclaiming the Messiah to them; ... 7 For many people were having unclean spirits [a.k.a. demons, DC] driven out of them, ... 9 But there was a man named Shim'on in the city who for some time had been practicing magic and astonishing the nation of Shomron, claiming to be somebody great. 10 Everyone gave heed to him, from the lowest to the highest, saying, "This man is the power of God called 'The Great Power'." 11 They followed him because for a considerable time he had amazed them with his magic. ... 13 Moreover, Shim'on himself came to believe; ... and he was amazed as he saw the miraculous signs and great works of power that kept taking place. ... 17 Then, as Kefa and Yochanan placed their hands on them, they received the Ruach HaKodesh. 18 Shim'on saw that the Spirit was given when the emissaries placed their hands on them, and he offered them money. 19 "Give this power to me, too," he said, "so that whoever I place my hands on will receive the Ruach HaKodesh." 20 But Kefa said to him, "Your silver go to ruin - and you with it, for thinking the free gift of God can be bought! ... in the eyes of God, your heart is crooked. 22 So repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord. ... 23 For I see that you are extremely bitter and completely under the control of sin!"

Take note here that magic was treated as evil and done away with. Notice who was glorified- who benefitted. Also note the attitude of Shim’on and the hold magic held on him even after his conversion.

Acts 13:6 ... they found a Jewish sorcerer and pseudo-prophet named Bar-Yeshua. 7 He had attached himself to the governor, Sergius Paulus, who was an intelligent man. Now the governor had called for Bar-Nabba and Sha'ul and was anxious to hear the message about God; 8 but the sorcerer Elymas (for that is how his name is translated) opposed them, doing his best to turn the governor away from the faith. 9 Then Sha'ul, also known as Paul, filled with the Ruach HaKodesh, stared straight at him and said, 10 "You son of Satan, full of fraud and evil! You enemy of everything good! Won't you ever stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?

Take particular note of verse 10.

Acts 16:16 tells of an encounter with a girl with a “snake-spirit that enabled her to predict the future.”

Acts 19 is rich in the disciples dealing with the occult. In particular, vs. 19 tells of many burning scrolls with their occult arts (magic spells) recorded in them.

The Bible is full of examples and warnings against “magic.”

Deuteronomy 18: 9 "When you enter the land ADONAI your God is giving you, you are not to learn how to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through fire, a diviner, a soothsayer, an enchanter, a sorcerer, 11 a spell-caster, a consulter of ghosts or spirits, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to ADONAI, and because of these abominations ADONAI your God is driving them out ahead of you. 13 You must be wholehearted with ADONAI your God.

malachib said:

I don't know why G-d allowed Samuel to be reached after his death by a Necro.

This is in 1 Samuel 28. Read it again; God didn’t give permission to do this abomination. He does however give us all, even kings, free will. This act probably was the nail in Sha’ul’s coffin, so to speak. The next day judgment fell on Sha’ul as he and his sons were slain.

As I’ve told you before, the Bible teaches there are only two sources of supernatural power - the power of God, or the power of ha satan. There are only 2 spiritual realms - the Kingdom of God and that of ha satan. You seem to be arguing for the latter, as everything you've ever said here equates God, His actions and our worship of Him to that of other gods, a.k.a. demons.. Thanks for the clarification.

Dan C

[malachib]

Dan how about you and me be respectful to other members here and bow out of posting to each other or referencing each other's posts?

You don't like me, I don't like you. Everyone knows. So to be respectful to others here, let's just let it be and stop posting to/about each other. Consider me a weak brother, weak-faithed, no faith...whatever. But let's respecg the others here and bow out of referencing each others posts.

Administrators of the board, does that sound like a good option? I'm not here to fight and Dan & I obviously have issues with each other. If that isn't acceptable, I will go ahead and leave the forum (i.e. no longer post) so others don't have to be brought into the childish crap between Dan and myself.

[alon]

May 26, 2013 16:37:34 GMT -8 malachib said:

Dan how about you and me be respectful to other members here and bow out of posting to each other or referencing each other's posts? ...

I see; so you'd be seen as the nice guy, the one who took the high road. Of course then your posts would apparently go unchallenged, as I seem to be the only one pointing these problems out.

I don't like nor dislike you. What you say however is pretty much like the Jewish sorcerer in Acts 13:6. And I was respectful. I answered everything you said point-by-point.

If you, or anyone else wants to report me to the moderators, go ahead. I'll stand by what I've said here. If it offends you I make no apologies.

And do not presume to imply I do not respect others here. Even in disagreement- and I'm pretty sure I've disagreed with everyone except the newer people at some point- we've always been respectful of each other.

Lastly threatening to leave is childish. Do what you want, but I'd suggest that if you really have questions about some of these things you should stay. Post them as questions, being respectful yourself to the forum owners. Read their statement of faith before you go off on a tangent like you did. Technically, I could have reported you instead of answering. You already had over a page worth of posts removed because of your attitudes and the same kinds of violations you show here.

Your call. Mat 7:7.

Dan C

[malachib]

Ok, here we go.

Dan, everything I type is on a phone, so I cannot see my grammatical or spelling midtakes as easily as you are so abrupt to point out. That being said, I will address your counter-points.

Prayer, sacrifices, temples, priests, sacred text, religious rituals imvolving candles & alters, religious clothing, dietary restrictions, circumcission and many more Biblical customs & commandments have parallels in other religions. There were pagan temples around for Moshe recieved instructions of the Mishkan & Solomon's temple. Tefillin has been attributed (as have the urim & thumim) as amulets of sorts, even in Jewish literature. Regardless if one believes the physical laying of tefillin is a xommandment or Pharisaical tradition, the Master never had an issue with physically carrying out tefillin (i.e. Putting it on). The urim & thumim has been described as an Israelite version of tossing bones to see what the fates/oraxles would reveal (same with casting lots in Acts). All of these things appear on earth thousands of years before the physical giving of the on Har Sinai, and yet are acceptable forms of worship to Hashem. Yet, we are not told specifically why magic is considered an no-no, when these others Biblical forms of worship predate the Israelites entering into Israel.

I never said Hashem wants anyone to worship anyone else (save maybe the Messiah from Daniel's and John's writtings). I don't know where you picked up the idea of me saying G-d condones the worship of others.

You claim that I commit blasphemy, but even learned sages of Israel who memorized and taught the state exactly what I have. It is the sagex (RAMBAM for this case) that I paraphrased. We don't see any commandment on what to sacrifice, how, why or what it does until Har Sinai...a timeframe well beyond that of already established non-Jewish religious traditions. Has not G-d used the secular, the mundane things and flipped them for His own will? The very first temples built were in Sumer...thousands of years before the Mishkan.

You bring up human sacrifices as arborhent to G-d...agreed. But there were many other types of sacrifices. Some went to feed the priests (exactly like the Levites), others for atonement for sin. And then we have Yeshua, in human form, crucified like thousands in his lifetime...a human sacrifice pleasing to G-d.

You say G-d didn't give permission for Samuel to be hailed from the dead. In my eyes, G-d has the power to allow/not allow anything, so He did in fact allow it. If not, then you boarder on claiming G-d is not all powerful and all knowing, since demonic forces were able to trump Him in this case.

As for your last post to me, I am a nice guy & yes, I will take the high road. Apparently, your faith is so weak you need to attack those who think for themselves (oh, I know...I "haven't seen" you attack yet).

I'm not looking for or wanting an apology or to report you to anyone. You're more than welcome to live in your own illusion of piety and a righteous zealot

You don't respect other board members ... Messianicmama asked both of us to stop squabbling and stay on point (i.e. Magic). I agreed and since I don't know how to private message you on the board from a phone, posting what I did seemed like a good idea.

If you & I are going to have these virtual slap fights, then leaving will be the mature thing to do. I am respectful to the forum owners...yes, I know they deleted my posts regarding xhallenging one of their doctrines and that's their right. No harm, no foul. Don't threaten to report me for stating historical, anthropological and sociological facts...just do it. Man up if you think I'm breaking the rules and be childish. I don't mind.

For everyone else, I'm done with Dan/Alon. Sorry to have wasted your time reading this.

[Yedidyah]

From what I have seen I think Dan has done nothing wrong by asking malachib to answer the questions asked. This is a forum and to expect any challenge of thinking is to be expected. With that said I do not like the direction this thread is going and to be frank I see a pattern with malachib's posts where they refuse to answer then get irritated and in a mocking matter reply without answering any of the questions presented. I only post this in the open since they said they don't know how to use the PM.
Malachib you are wrong on the sacrifices, Hashem made the first sacrifice for mankind when he clothed them with animal skin in the Garden everything else is a copy from that point on. So if you are in any way saying G-d is ok with magic then please explain (explain with an answer not some question) Magic is witchcraft and in no way ok in the eyes of Hashem like Dan (Alon) has already clearly written out for you. Thanks Dan for keeping people on their toes! For farther posts from everyone please don't post if you are not willing to reply to questions.

[Yedidyah]

May 25, 2013 13:55:56 GMT -8 messianicmama said:

I don't have anything concrete but my belief is that these things were used and are used by other religious groups (pagan) and they tap into demonic realms. We are not to worship Adonai the way the pagans worship their gods and we are to keep our temples holy and free of idolatrous things.

Thanks for you input, I agree but the gives us concrete evidence that such practices are wrong.

Leviticus 19:31
31 “‘Do not turn to spirit-mediums or sorcerers; don’t seek them out, to be defiled by them; I am Adonai your God.

Leviticus 20:27
27 “‘A man or woman who is a spirit-medium or sorcerer must be put to death; they are to stone them to death; their blood will be on them.’”

1 Chronicles 10:13-14
13 So Sha’ul died for the transgression he committed against Adonai, because of the word of Adonai that he did not keep and because he sought the counsel of a spirit 14 instead of consulting Adonai. Therefore Adonai put him to death and turned the rulership over to David the son of Yishai.

Revelation 22:15
15 Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

There are others but to be honest if it is not from the Father it is from darkness. To answer a previous comment about blane and angel those two are indeed tapping into the demonic. There is more than illusions happening and spiritual discernment needs to be engaged on such issues, if you can't tell which is good or demonic I would recommend some serious prayer time for the answers. Shalom to all!

Yedidyah