Magic

[Yedidyah]

May 26, 2013 19:24:35 GMT -8 malachib said:

I never said Hashem wants anyone to worship anyone else (save maybe the Messiah from Daniel's and John's writing's)

Please explain, are you saying the other writing of Messiah found with scripture are not as valid as Daniel and Johns writings?

[malachib]

The does not plainly state Hashem made a sacrafice and/or taught Adam & Eve to make sacrafices, although that is rabbinic interpretation that I do agree with.

Asking me to clarify is one thing, but for whatever reason you chose to ignore Dan's insults of me (childish, blasphemy, etc). I post questions to get a point across.

I NEVER SAID G-D WAS/IS OKAY WITH MAGIC. Just because Dan said/assumes I do, people believe it. I said over & over that I do NOT know why magic was singled out, given the historical FACT that Biblical customs have parrallels with pagan customs (prayer, priests, temp les, holy clothing, circumcission that pre-dates Abraham, etc). Why are these things okay to worship G-d with (even if Israelites began it first, which many customs they did not) that pagans use, but magic is bad? As I've stated already, I don't know.

My recommendation is to read my post & come to your own conclussion before reading it through the filter that is Dan.

And am I missing something? Exactly what questions am I not responding to? If it's an insult wrapped up as a question, I won't respond to it usually as its a waste of time.

[malachib]

May 26, 2013 20:18:56 GMT -8 Yedidyah said:

May 26, 2013 19:24:35 GMT -8 malachib said:

I never said Hashem wants anyone to worship anyone else (save maybe the Messiah from Daniel's and John's writing's)

Please explain, are you saying the other writing of Messiah found with scripture are not as valid as Daniel and Johns writings?

No and I don't know how you arrived at that conclussion lol.

G-d does not condone the worship of anyone else but Him...until you get to Daniel & John's writtings where G-d allows the Messiah to be worshipped.

[alon]

Dan, everything I type is on a phone, so I cannot see my grammatical or spelling midtakes as easily as you are so abrupt to point out.

See, this was the kind of problem I was trying to unearth when I asked about your English! It’s probably why your posts are so wild and difficult to understand. I’d suggest you post in short bites that are more easily organized in your mind. I’ll break the reply into shorter bites as well. Hope it helps.

Dan C

[alon]

[quote=malachib]Prayer, sacrifices, temples, priests, sacred text, religious rituals imvolving candles & alters, religious clothing, dietary restrictions, circumcission and many more Biblical customs & commandments have parallels in other religions. There were pagan temples around for Moshe recieved instructions of the Mishkan & Solomon's temple. Tefillin has been attributed (as have the urim & thumim) as amulets of sorts, even in Jewish literature. Regardless if one believes the physical laying of tefillin is a xommandment or Pharisaical tradition, the Master never had an issue with physically carrying out tefillin (i.e. Putting it on). The urim & thumim has been described as an Israelite version of tossing bones to see what the fates/oraxles would reveal (same with casting lots in Acts). All of these things appear on earth thousands of years before the physical giving of the on Har Sinai, and yet are acceptable forms of worship to Hashem. Yet, we are not told specifically why magic is considered an no-no, when these others Biblical forms of worship predate the Israelites entering into Israel.

Actually, I have brought up some of these things myself on this forum. historically some, and maybe all did exist before Moses. Here’s the short answer, according to that great sage Dan C (j/k):

Like we usually do, men took what God established in the beginning and perverted it. However Moses wasn’t that far removed from Noah, and so many of the pagan rituals still resembled what God established from Adam to Noah. God used the right man (Avram) at the right place and the right time to work His will. Some practices were allowed, even though they were in pagan cultures. Others were forbidden. As has been shown, “magic” is one of those practices that was forbidden. Further, magic is not in Judaism anywhere, as true magic (not the illusions we call magic) derives its power from ha satan.

The use of the urim and thurim, as well as the casting of lots were a form of cleromancy. The difference is that the petitioners came to God in a manner He had set for them. They did not seek answers from magicians or gods.

[alon]

You claim that I commit blasphemy, but even learned sages of Israel who memorized and taught the state exactly what I have. It is the sagex (RAMBAM for this case) that I paraphrased. We don't see any commandment on what to sacrifice, how, why or what it does until Har Sinai...a timeframe well beyond that of already established non-Jewish religious traditions. Has not G-d used the secular, the mundane things and flipped them for His own will? The very first temples built were in Sumer...thousands of years before the Mishkan.

I said “God doesn’t copy ha satan, and to say or even imply that He does is blasphemy.” Agree or disagree, but the above statement gives what I think is a good explanation to your question. Now I’ll ask, who do you think copied who?

I never said Hashem wants anyone to worship anyone else (save maybe the Messiah from Daniel's and John's writtings). I don't know where you picked up the idea of me saying G-d condones the worship of others.

You said it was acceptable, and I asked by who. I quoted you where I asked. Simply answering would clear this up. Do the quotation boxes show on your mobile?

You bring up human sacrifices as arborhent to G-d...agreed. But there were many other types of sacrifices. Some went to feed the priests (exactly like the Levites), others for atonement for sin. And then we have Yeshua, in human form, crucified like thousands in his lifetime...a human sacrifice pleasing to G-d.

Agree, there were all kinds of sacrifices, for all kinds of reasons. However Yeshua was the only sacrifice that could remove sins. So again, I have to ask, is it your intention to compare what Yeshua did with pagan human sacrifices?

You say G-d didn't give permission for Samuel to be hailed from the dead. In my eyes, G-d has the power to allow/not allow anything, so He did in fact allow it. If not, then you boarder on claiming G-d is not all powerful and all knowing, since demonic forces were able to trump Him in this case.

God has the power to stop anything, however He gives us all free will. There is a huge difference in allowing our exercise of that will and in condoning what we do. No demon trumped God, as it is God who set the rules.

[alon]

As for your last post to me, I am a nice guy & yes, I will take the high road. Apparently, your faith is so weak you need to attack those who think for themselves (oh, I know...I "haven't seen" you attack yet).

Well, no, you haven’t seen me attack- and you won’t here, regardless what you say. But I will come hard against the things I have perceived you to say.

I'm not looking for or wanting an apology or to report you to anyone. You're more than welcome to live in your own illusion of piety and a righteous zealot

A little disjointed again, but hey, I’ll claim it!

You don't respect other board members ... Messianicmama asked both of us to stop squabbling and stay on point (i.e. Magic). I agreed and since I don't know how to private message you on the board from a phone, posting what I did seemed like a good idea.

No, you tried to take me out of the equation and leave you free to post your questionable doctrines unmolested. Mamma said she wanted to hear everyone’s views; well, she heard yours and now she’s heard mine.

Remember too, there are probably many who come here that just look. They don’t post or even sign up. So leaving the statements you make unchallenged is not an acceptable option.

[alon]

If you & I are going to have these virtual slap fights, then leaving will be the mature thing to do. I am respectful to the forum owners...yes, I know they deleted my posts regarding xhallenging one of their doctrines and that's their right. No harm, no foul. Don't threaten to report me for stating historical, anthropological and sociological facts...just do it. Man up if you think I'm breaking the rules and be childish. I don't mind.

Not threatening to report you, just said I could have to illustrate that I’m not out to get you personally. I AM out to contradict some of the things you say.

For everyone else, I'm done with Dan/Alon. Sorry to have wasted your time reading this.

Again, your call. I can ignore you as well, except that I cannot let the kinds of statements you’ve made here go unchallenged.

If I am reading you wrong, then say so when asked and we can deal with it. But I’m not the only one having trouble understanding what you say. Mischaracterizing this as a slap fight obfuscates the point as well. What you’ve said is wrong, and I’ve shown it. It’s a discussion board, but one that may influence others in their beliefs. To say nothing and allow false teachings to go unanswered would be tantamount to desertion in the face of the enemy. Not happenin’.

Dan C

edit: You are getting upset with a mod as well as me, and to no good end. We are just responding to what you have said. Take my advice, slow down and post in short bites. That way you can better organize your thoughts so we do not misunderstand.

You brought up some good points that I'd like to discuss. But the way you are saying it is way out of bounds, and the "zealot" in me just has to say "NO!"