Curious to Jews?

[pete]

Hello, I'm sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong forum, but I didn't know quite where to post this curiosity.

I believe something might have been written about concerning the Jews, that was in a prophecy by John in Revelation.

I am no scholar, and I am only searching myself. I try to follow Jesus. I'm sure anyone reading this post probably knows much more than me. Toddler in the room!

From Revelation 12.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

If ones considers that the woman might be a reference to Israel and the 12 stars (In verse 1) the twelve tribes, then might not the woman going to the wilderness for 1260 days be taken for the last of the Jews fleeing Jerusalem?

If one looks at is this way, then consider the Persians sacked Jerusalem in 630 AD. I came across reports of sacrifices being done on the temple mound as late as 630 AD. 630 AD + 1260 = 1890

1890 was when Zionism was founded I believe.

I found this interesting, and I'm curious what others with more knowledge of Jewish history might have to say.

Thoughts?


Be Blessed!

Pete

[messianicmama]

Interesting. I'm not really an end times buff, but I'm looking forward to reading everyone else's thoughts. I'm sure there are some eschatologists here!

[alon]

Apr 4, 2013 19:19:23 GMT -8 pete said:

(Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days)

If ones considers that the woman might be a reference to Israel and the 12 stars (In verse 1) the twelve tribes, then might not the woman going to the wilderness for 1260 days be taken for the last of the Jews fleeing Jerusalem?

If one looks at is this way, then consider the Persians sacked Jerusalem in 630 AD. I came across reports of sacrifices being done on the temple mound as late as 630 AD. 630 AD + 1260 = 1890

1890 was when Zionism was founded I believe.

I found this interesting, and I'm curious what others with more knowledge of Jewish history might have to say.

I'm no scholar or historian either, so take this as just my opinion. But yes, the woman is the nation of Israel. I do believe however that this prophecy speaks of both past and future events. It speaks both of the past birth of Yeshua and the future birth of the State of Israel.

We don't normally think of prophecy as dealing with past events, however recall that the primary purpose of prophets was to make sure priests properly interpreted scripture and keep kings in line. So prophecy does deal with things past. And to coordinate future events so they fall in line with past events is just as miraculous (if not moreso) as predicting two events.

I think ha shatan does go after the Jews fleeing Jerusalem, as well as Jews and Messianic Jews everywhere. However God foils his attacks, so in vs. 17 he goes after gentile Christians- probably those not keeping the whole . "17 and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. "

So then the question for us is where will we stand? I'm still learning, and so do not keep the whole . Could be a problem if I'm right.

Dan C

[pete]

Hey, thanks for the replies

I definitely believe that His Word is alive. I hope never to put a wall up around the prophets. I believe they go backward and forward.

It reminds me of Haggai.

2:18 Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth [month, even] from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was l
aid, consider [it].
19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless [you].

Ever notice that from Revelation and Daniel 1290 days and 1260 days are both called 3 1/2 days? I think perhaps this prophecy in Revelation is a sort of seal that is meant to help us see Him and understand things long hidden in plain view.

I personally believe we are warned not to try to figure out what the prophecies are going to reveal in time. I believe we are only supposed to recognize it by watching, watching, watching. Ever count how manys times we are told to watch in the Bible? It's staggering.

I believe 'wine' speaks of God's promise coming true somehow--His blessing--His revelation. David says wine makes us feel good.

Solomon seems to indicate that we shouldn't try to understand God's Promise until it's been revealed:

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

I think that's why were are warned not to be drunk or asleep. We will miss Him when he comes.

It's really curious to replace "God's Promise" every time you read 'wine' in the Bible. The book seems to read differently and much more clearly.

I know many or even most, might disagree with my thoughts. I respect different views, and I get quite excited when I am corrected. Then I know I'm really cooking. It's like being a child and being amazed by everything you see.

I love talking about my Father's Word. If you can read this, than know that I love you.

God Bless,

Pete

[alon]

I don't know enough to "correct" you; I think of it more as both of us bringing a different perspective to the Word and both benefiting from the others views.

Apr 22, 2013 5:21:13 GMT -8 pete said:

I definitely believe that His Word is alive. I hope never to put a wall up around the prophets. I believe they go backward and forward.

It is definitely "alive" in that God's Word is a valid template for belief and action in every age, AS WRITTEN! I'm guessing that is what you mean.

I reject the modern view that the Bible, our Constitution, and all other legal and moral documents are alive in the sense that all mythology is alive. In mythology, only at most 25% of any "story" is true. The rest can be changed or reinterpreted by the storyteller to make whatever point he wants. That is how most of mainstream Christianity got its view of the "New Testament Church" made relevant to today, not today made relevant to our faith.

It reminds me of Haggai. ... I think perhaps this prophecy in Revelation is a sort of seal that is meant to help us see Him and understand things long hidden in plain view.

I personally believe we are warned not to try to figure out what the prophecies are going to reveal in time. I believe we are only supposed to recognize it by watching, watching, watching. Ever count how manys times we are told to watch in the Bible? It's staggering.

I disagree in part- we are supposed to watch, and prophecy tells us what to watch for and when. The meanings of prophecy are not always "sealed." If He told us, He meant us to know. The things that are sealed are His to know until the time is right.

I believe 'wine' speaks of God's promise coming true somehow--His blessing--His revelation. David says wine makes us feel good.

Solomon seems to indicate that we shouldn't try to understand God's Promise until it's been revealed:

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

I think that's why were are warned not to be drunk or asleep. We will miss Him when he comes.

It's really curious to replace "God's Promise" every time you read 'wine' in the Bible. The book seems to read differently and much more clearly.

Wine is sometimes considered a valid symbolic/ritualistic substitute for blood, as I understand it from my Jewish Study Bible notes. We now know it is through the blood of Messiah that we are ultimately blessed, so that part of the analogy is good as I see it. However the passage you quote doesn't necessarily support your conclusion. It is obviously a warning (p'shat) about drunkenness. I think it hints (remez) at not following false gods or false theologies. I'm sure rabbi Reuel could give a good darash on either of those two points. But I don't see the warning about not trying to understand what we are told.

Replacing words in scripture with other words or phrases can at times give clarity. But it can be dangerous too as we are possibly changing scripture. We need to be absolutely certain the replacement is correct, and like I said I'm not sure it is in this case. Just my opinion.

Your mileage may vary ...
(I gotta look up how to say that in Hebrew )

Dan C

[pete]

Hey Dan, I appreciate your thoughts. I too believe that not all prophecies are sealed. As a matter of fact, I believe if you seek you shall find.

Proverbs 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Jesus told use that he would reveal things in his parables that have been long hidden. For those who have ears...

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

I believe Jesus spoke with very specific words in his parables found throughout the OLD testament. He spoke in parables so those with ears could hear. Others heard only what appears as common wisdom. I believe Solomon spoke the same language as did the prophets.

Surely the warnings about drinking too much wine can be taken literally.

Drunkards sleep at night. He comes like a thief in the night.

Surely old skins cannot hold new wine too. What if the wine were the promise they 'imagined in their heads'. They would not recognize nor be able to accept His promise when it was right in front of their eyes. The water would turn bitter and most would not want to drink it. It would be as wormwood.

Make no graven image right? I believe the vibe is throughout His Word. It is His Spirit. It is alive. That is my two cents.

The only thing I know for sure is that if we obey Christ's commandments, then we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free.

Oil and wine seem quite important, to me, from the way the prophets and Jesus spoke of it. I think it's a matter worth looking into.

Have a great day! Be blessed!

Pete

[Frank T. Clark]

I have been highly impressed by these words of our Saviour:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Note: When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into ALL truth. I believe this with all my heart. We are told it does not come easily:

II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I believe it will come with another outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

[alon]

Apr 26, 2013 13:58:07 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

... Note: When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into ALL truth. I believe this with all my heart. We are told it does not come easily: ... I believe it will come with another outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

I agree, however we need to be exercising our spirit of discernment now because as Mat 24:24 says "there shall arise false Christs and false prophets" and "if possible they shall deceive the very elect."

I always get skeptical when I hear modern day prophecy. We see a lot of cults started in this way, and I've seen some well meaning but self important people "prophecy" in church services; when everyone knows they are just pushing their own regular agenda.

It's the Baptist in me I suppose ... [img src="www.synagoguechm.com/images/" class="smile" alt="" src="//storage.proboards.com/235846/images/HForPuXlwSmIOsYgIvG8.gif"]

Dan C

[alon]

LROL! Sorry about the "BOO" up there. Not sure how that happened, but if I change it it'll mess up the rest of the post. It don' mean no thang ...

Dan C

edit: I changed it anyway; that just looked bad.

[pete]

Apr 26, 2013 14:43:28 GMT -8 alon said:

I always get skeptical when I hear modern day prophecy. We see a lot of cults started in this way, and I've seen some well meaning but self important people "prophecy" in church services; when everyone knows they are just pushing their own regular agenda.

I don't think we should call anyone teacher and we should try to follow the lamb wherever he goes.

Matthew 4
24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it
shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

I'm pretty sure what ever the song is, it will be a new song. Only those that seek will find.

I think He is much bigger than we all thought...

Be blessed!

Pete

[Frank T. Clark]

alon "I agree, however we need to be exercising our spirit of discernment now..."

I believe that is exactly what it means "rightly dividing the word of truth."

We need to be following carefully the words of the Bible in our daily lives and not getting too caught up in prophetic interpretation. I believe that when we truly follow all the words of the Bible to our best understanding, then we will be able to discern the hand of God in prophecy.

[pete]

Hey Frank, I really liked what you had to say. So much, that I didn't need to reply. Which is why I hadn't until now.

I was trying to walk with my Father today, and I saw this and was reminded of your post.

Song of Solomon
3:5 I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please.

I believe if you seek you will find. He is truly awesome. He comes like a thief.

Be blessed brother!

Pete

[alon]

Apr 28, 2013 6:23:46 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

alon "I agree, however we need to be exercising our spirit of discernment now..."

I believe that is exactly what it means "rightly dividing the word of truth."

We need to be following carefully the words of the Bible in our daily lives and not getting too caught up in prophetic interpretation. I believe that when we truly follow all the words of the Bible to our best understanding, then we will be able to discern the hand of God in prophecy.

Absolutely!

Dan C

[alon]

Apr 27, 2013 15:49:07 GMT -8 pete said:

I don't think we should call anyone teacher

This is from Matt 23, and is one of those oft misinterpreted scriptures we Messianics like to point out.

• "1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? "
  

Read in context, this is an injunction against those who take on titles which they do not deserve, or abusing the authority a title gives them. It is also a warning for us to watch for these people. However since all of these terms are still rightly used it is foolish to think we are being told to do away with the terms. For example, it would be correct to call your own father "father." My opinion is it is wrong for Catholic priests to take on that title.

Another example which might hit closer to home is the trend to have "rabbis" get their qualifications from a short internet course. Typically these people are not knowledgeable enough to bear that title. Some I've seen don't even know enough to get accepted into a yeshiva. They certainly know enough to lead a study group, which would be far more honest and credible. So scripturally that is what they should be doing and the title they should take: study group leader.

Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

I like to describe myself as a "student of the Bible" and just leave it at that... :-)