Karaites

[messianicmama]

I apologizes if this offends anyone but I need a place to talk about this. I'm seeing more and more anti-rabbi, anti-tradition, anti-judaism Messianics popping up as I go along. I don't for one minute believe the rabbis are right about everything and I don't adhere to lots of traditional halacha. But to assume that the rabbis and Judaism are all wrong, irrelevant and evil after they have spent millennia studying, learning, interpreting and keeping while most of us had no clue about any of it seems arrogant and foolish. Yeshua upheld LOTS of rabbinical tradition. In fact, many Christians and even Jews and Messianics believe he may have been a pharisee himself! And evenif he wasn't, how can we toss it all into the trash without researching it? I'm so frustrated beca iuse a couple messianic friends are going that route and it breaks my heart. Most Karaites think they are letting speak but in reality they are interpreting it on their own, generally through modern American Christian lenses.

[alon]

I'd agree with your post itself, however I wonder why the title Karaites? All I really know about them is what I've seen on the internet, but they sound pretty solid to me. They uphold as the foundation, and relegate the Oral Tradition as commentary- a position I also agree with. I don't think they disregard the ancient rabbis, they just don't blindly follow either.

As far as I know, they still regard the Nevi'im and Kethuvim as scripture; however these must also agree with . I'd add the same for the B'rit Chadasha.

Maybe you know more about them than I do. Or maybe you have a rogue group trying to fly their banner. I don't know.

Dan C

[messianicmama]

Maybe the groupas a whole is not what I've seen, but the ones I've met and been familiar with don't just relegate the Talmud to commentary- they outright hate it. The think the rabbis are bad and that they know better. They say we should read the and no commentaries. The trouble is, there are parts of the that have to be interpreted. For example, how do we keep sabbath? What does it mean to afflict our spirit? How do we know if someone will be a good leader? These things aren't clearly spelled out in do we have to make inferences and use history/tradition. It's not like it can be avoided. Whether we accept rabbinical interpretation or not, we will have to take somebody's interpretation. Therefore to be violently against the traditionally held halacha without studying it, or comparing it to or to Yeshua's halacha is ignorant. At least, it seems that way to me. Plus, most people I know who take that pov will break the in a effort not to keep a tradition. And Messianics wonder why Jews aren't interested. Bluh.

[alon]

You know, every time a movement becomes popular, it attracts its share of fringe types. The Messianic movement seems to have drawn in far more than its share of those on the fringes of sanity, or worse. Sounds like you've found some. I wouldn't judge all Karaites based on them just yet.

Dan C

[danstevens]

Messianicmama writes "Yeshua upheld LOTS of rabbinical tradition."

Name one. Personally I disagree I see no command anywhere for many of the traditons and customs normally associated with messianic worship other than the authority of non believing rabbis.

I believe if you read your scripture not only did Paul rail against the tradition and customs of the elders and Jewish myths and wives tails but actually had Jacob in Acts 15 agree that a gentile does not have to become a Jew (circumcision being the issue which was required to become a Jew) before becoming a believer Yeshua himself railed against the tradition's of the pharisees saying that they travel to the ends of the earth to make one convert and then forbid them entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Thats not a resounding endorsement from the one you say you believe to be you messiah your master and your king.

And before you think I'm some kind of anti messianic let me assure you I've been walking this walk sine 1971. I've been down many paths including the "adopt everything Jewish" one. Thankfully I've matured and have grown closer to the perfection we all have in Messiah

I don't mean to be offensive but its time for the messianic community to wake up. Many of the "Jewish" customs come from the same paganism as the "Christian" customs and it's high time we ALL clean up our act and start worshiping in spirit and in TRUTH.

[danstevens]

I've also seen those who get wrapped up in the "Jewish Customs" get so wrapped up that they denounce belief in Yeshua and walk away from the truth.

Of a truth the really honest Messianics I know when I question the reasons they do the things they do reply " because I like it" They know it has no scriptural authority.

[Yedidyah]

Apr 30, 2013 12:11:34 GMT -8 danstevens said:

I've also seen those who get wrapped up in the "Jewish Customs" get so wrapped up that they denounce belief in Yeshua and walk away from the truth.

Of a truth the really honest Messianics I know when I question the reasons they do the things they do reply " because I like it" They know it has no scriptural authority.

And we see many Christians who are born into Christian homes walk away from Messiah after one term in College. This is even more reason why we need the scripture embedded within us, within everything we do. We need a solid rock to stand upon and without a personal relationship with the Father you are standing on sand that will give out and wash away into the ocean of lies.
I don't think "Jewish Customs" has anything to do with people walking away, it can be edifying to the body but without a true relationship it does not matter. So my point is that if one walks away how good of a relationship do you really think they had? Pointing the blame on Jewish Customs is a cop out of the real reason. Shalom,

Yedidyah

[malachib]

The fear of renoumcing Yeshua because of Jewish customs & traditions is anti-semetic. It's BS. If someone renounces Yeshua, then they aren't worthy of discipleship. Consider the seed on the 4 types of soil (4 types of disciples).

Rabbinic traditions Yeshua upheld:

Upheld that the , Prophets & Writtings as Scripture (a Rabbinical custom).

Understood and used a bit of angelology and demonology (seen only among the Pharisees)

Upheld and identified with the Pharisaical customs of the resurrection, life after death, hell and it's 4 forms, etc.

The Synoptic Gospels use strict Pharisaical interpretation methods for numerous prophecies and can only be used and interpreted via this method. Meaning, the Gospel writters could only prove Yeshua's Messiahship via rabbinic interpretations.

Yeshua uses rabbinical interpretations and argumenative styles commonly

Yeshua's custom was to go to the synagogue (a strictly rabbinic invention).

Yeshua participated and followed rabbinic customs, traditions and order of service while in said synagogues.

Yeshua recognizes the authority of the pharisees (despite what strawman arguments that nejimiah gordon and avi ben mordicai use).

Yeshua follows the ancient rabbinic custom of sitting as he taught. This was changed after the death of Gamliel.

Yeshua uses rabbinic teaching methods (midrash, hagaddah, mishal, etc).

I can go on, but hopefullu this satisfies the "one" example requested.

Claiming Jewish customs (or most of them, many of them) are pagan sources, is anti-semetic and historically unfounded.

Respectfully, it doesn't matter how long any of claim to have been involved in this walk. Such numbers do nothing but stroke ego and breed a self-imposed sense of authority...one which none here should accept.

My thoughts.

[malachib]

I don't always agree with Derek, but he makes some excellent points here: derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2007/05/09/rabbinic-tradition-and-yeshua/

[fschmidt]

I stumbled on this forum and will post here to clear up some things and maybe to learn myself. I am not Messianic, I just follow the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).

The Karaites in American immigrated from Egypt. They definitely do not have a modern American Christian perspective. They are quite Jewish. I have been to their Daly City synagogue twice.

Jesus followed absolutely no rabbinical tradition. Of course Jesus did follow general Jewish tradition that wasn't specifically rabbinic.

I have nothing in theory against the idea of an Oral . But the problem with the Talmud is that it is about 90% wrong. Instead of one oral , there should be 100 representing a 100 traditions. Then God can judge, through history, which is best.

My understanding about Messianics is that they are followers of Jesus. But how can any follower of Jesus also follow the Talmud? The Talmud is extremely anti-Christian. It describes Jesus as being eternally condemned to sit in a boiling pot of excrement in hell for contradicting the rabbis. This and other examples can be found in this book by an Israeli Jew:

Moderator redaction: while the book write-up didn't sound too bad, research on the author shows him to be an anti-Israel activist and collaborator with several anti-Jewish activists such as Noel Chomsky, a well known self hating Jew. Reference to such works is a violation of the rules. Dan C

I am also ethnically Jewish and have attended Orthodox synagogue, so I am personally familiar with this attitude. I don't care much about this because I don't follow Jesus, but the idea that anyone who follows Jesus could also accept the Talmud boggles my mind.

[alon]

First off, welcome back! I see you've been a member since 2011, but are just starting to post. Glad to have you here!

Mar 12, 2015 0:09:29 GMT -8 fschmidt said:

Jesus followed absolutely no rabbinical tradition. Of course Jesus did follow general Jewish tradition that wasn't specifically rabbinic.

Yochanan 10:22-23 (OJB) Then the Chag (Festival) of Channukah took place in Yerushalayim. It was winter. And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach was walking around in the Beis Hamikdash in the area called Ulam Shlomo (Solomon’s Colonnade).

So Yeshua kept Channukah, which was almost certainly a Rabbinic tradition. Many things may have been too ordinary or mundane to place in the Gospels. However we may infer that Yeshua did some things from looking at His closest followers.

Gevurot (Acts) 3:1 (OJB) Now Kefa and Yochanan were going up to the Beis Hamikdash at the hour of tefillah, the ninth hour (three o’clock in the afternoon).

This was a traditional time of prayer. Let’s look at Acts 2:42 …

Gevurot 2:42 (OJB) And they were keseder (constantly) shtark (steadfastly) devoting themselves to the Moshiach’s pnimiyus (innermost) as handed on by Moshiach’s Shlichim (emmisaries of the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach) and to being mishtatef (involved, joining) in the Messianic Chavurah (fellowship, company, group, especially one eating the paschal lamb together) and to the tishen (shared meals) with Betzi’at HaLechem (Breaking Bread) at the Seudos Moshiach and to the Tefillos.

Acts 2:42 (ESV) And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

"They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers." -Acts 2:41-42; American Standard Version (ASV)

The King James Version (KJV) and about half of the modern versions translate this verse: "...and in prayers.", omitting the definite article "the." The original Greek is actually: "and the prayers."

It is translated “and the prayers” in the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the American Standard Version (ASV), the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB), Young's Literal Translation (YLT), and many others. Some, like the New American Standard (NAS) omit the word “the” but have a footnote that says “Literally ‘and the prayers.’”

The word “the” used here is a definite article, which means it specifies something, meaning this had to be talking about some traditional prayers in existence at the time. This reference to some specific prayers can only refer to the three times of day prayer that the Jews, including the Apostles and early believers observed. They were the only specified prayers at the time, and it was a standardized prayer, the Amidah. This prayer was composed in about 450 BCE by the 120 men of the Great Assembly- prophets and sages- all Rabbis.

So we can clearly see that the Apostles and all other early believers did follow a strict Rabbinical tradition- they prayed three times daily; and the prayer they prayed was a formulated prayer set down by Rabbis 450 years prior. Now, since they emulated Yeshua it would stand to reason He did so as well.


Dan C

[alon]

Mar 12, 2015 0:09:29 GMT -8 fschmidt said:

I have nothing in theory against the idea of an Oral . But the problem with the Talmud is that it is about 90% wrong. Instead of one oral , there should be 100 representing a 100 traditions. Then God can judge, through history, which is best.

My understanding about Messianics is that they are followers of Jesus. But how can any follower of Jesus also follow the Talmud? The Talmud is extremely anti-Christian. It describes Jesus as being eternally condemned to sit in a boiling pot of excrement in hell for contradicting the rabbis. This and other examples can be found in this book by an Israeli Jew:

Redacted

Messianics follow Yeshua, who we believe to be God. Most do not believe in the Christian Trinity, but He was God just as when He appeared to Abraham. God concentrated His being in one man, just as when He concentrated His being on Mt. Sinai in the par'sha last week. Yet He still filled the universe.

Some calling themselves Messianic do not believe Yeshua is God; or that He was created as God at the virgin birth. But they still follow Him. And there are cults which try to call themselves Messianic as well. I am sure you could find some Messianics somewhere that follow the Talmud, holding it equal to or above scripture. Just because they call themselves Messianic doesn't make them so. Most are Ebionites, others just plain crazy.

We hold the Talmud as commentary- some good, some bad. And even the bad can have enlightening glimpses into customs and activities not found in scripture, but which may add to our understanding of scripture. But as with all commentary, a lot of discernment is in order.

The Mishnah was written by men who were close to the things they wrote about; either they were there, or they were only one or two generations removed. The Gemara tends to get a bit wilder, as it is all commentary on the commentary. Also, as Christian persecution increased it tended to become more hateful to this "Jesus" who was behind all the persecution. In actuality it was not Yeshua or any of the "New Testament" writers who were behind this. It was a church that was entirely separate from and hostile to the early Messianic believers. These believers were persecuted to extinction along with the Jewish people, and all by or at the instigation of the church.

It is these early believers that true Messianics try to emulate. Our worship and practices, our halacha, is as close as we can make it to what the Apostles would have done. We try to worship God as He said to do it. We strive to live our lives as He said also, with Yeshua and the Apostles as our example and as our guide. And we hold the Bible, consisting of the TNK and the B'rit Chadasha as the authoritative word of God. All else is either Deutero-cannon or commentary. We do not follow the Talmud, it is a collection of commentaries, nothing more.

Dan C

[tonga]

Mar 12, 2015 0:09:29 GMT -8 fschmidt said:

The Karaites in American immigrated from Egypt.They are quite Jewish. I have been to their Daly City synagogue twice.

How are their services different from those of a traditional shul?

I am also ethnically Jewish and have attended Orthodox synagogue

Why would you attend an Orthodox synagogue if you don't accept the oral law?

As far as Jesus being in the Talmud, my understanding is that possible references to him are ambiguous, and are not thought to
represent him. As for your book reference, he looks like an Israel hating Jew. I would suspect he probably doesn't have much
use for religion in general, and therefore I would consider his views just a tad bit biased.

[fschmidt]

I have never heard of the OJB ("Orthodox Jewish Bible"). What is it exactly?

I will look through this forum on shabbat, when I have the time, to understand what Messianic Judaism is all about.

[fschmidt]

Mar 12, 2015 10:52:07 GMT -8 tonga said:

How are their [Karaites] services different from those of a traditional shul?

In terms of how it feels, it is very similar to an Orthodox service. But the contents of the service comes entirely from the Bible, including all prayers.

Why would you attend an Orthodox synagogue if you don't accept the oral law?

I attended Orthodox synagogue before I reached this conclusion. I was raised atheist with no knowledge of religion, so I researched the various religions later including Judaism. I love the Hebrew Bible but I have to say that I am not very happy with religions that exist today.

As far as Jesus being in the Talmud, my understanding is that possible references to him are ambiguous, and are not thought to
represent him. As for your book reference, he looks like an Israel hating Jew. I would suspect he probably doesn't have much
use for religion in general, and therefore I would consider his views just a tad bit biased.

Everyone is biased and I give people credit who are at least honest about their biases. I consider myself to be a reactionary, but I respect this author as an honest liberal. I agree that he doesn't have use for religion, but that doesn't change my impression that he is honest. He certainly is not an Israel hating Jew since he chose to live in Israel. He comes from a religious family (and so knows Judaism better than I do), is fluent in Hebrew, and lived in Israel where he was exposed to things that we (outside Israel) aren't. What he says makes sense to me and fits my experience. For example, I was taught in synagogue that Jews have a divine soul and an animal soul, but gentiles only have an animal soul.