Baptism

[alon]

Oct 2, 2015 18:17:04 GMT -8 azaliah said:

... When it comes to this thing of Baptism, who decides what rituals are Messianic and from where do they get this information? ... Is there some standard for all sects of Messianic traditions? Is there such a standard?

Standards are only valid within the association or assembly which is responsible for your halacha. Since most here have no such governing body, I generally suggest to people they adopt the halacha of the parent synagogue of this forum. I follow those of my own synagogue, except when visiting others I adopt their halacha unless I think it may not be scriptural.

We take our halacha for tevilah from . However the Christians are taught that baptism is a "New Testament" sacrament, done only once after you are saved. I used to get after the Baptists for making someone who'd been baptized in another denomination get rebaptized if they became a Baptist. This was before I became Messianic. The Baptists however were much closer to the truth, but only in this one instance. They messed up the rest of it just like every other Christian church. They did away with every other reason for tevilah, including purification, post menstruation, after an emission (men), to name a few. Tevilah is not a one time thing for the truly observant, but is done many times throughout your life. Excavations of affluent 1st cen homes in Yisro'el often find a mikvah in the home, it was done that often! And this is not a bath, but a mikvah which is set apart to Hashem. Observant Jews and Meshiachim never mix the holy with the profane (ordinary).

Christians take their idea of the preacher going into the water with the new convert from the story in Acts:

Gevurot 8:38 (OJB) And he commanded the chariot to stop and both went down into the mikveh mayim, both Philippos and the eunuch, and Philippos gave him Moshiach’s tevilah of teshuva in the mikveh mayim.

"Dan, you dummy! You just used an essentially Jewish translation of a New Testament scripture to illustrate a Christian concept!" No, I used a translation closer to the original Hebrew document with Hebrew terms which will better illustrate the error of the Christians. 1st off let's dispel the idea that this was a gelding. A eunuch in some cases was simply a title given to those who did the jobs a true eunuch usually did. We know this man was not a true eunuch because he was coming from the Temple in Yerushalay'im. Anyone so deformed would not have been allowed into the Temple.

mikvah mayim- mayim is waters, and a mikvah is any body of water suited for tevilah. It had to be a source of clean water with an inlet and outlet, meaning it flowed and was continually refreshed. They (Phillipos and the state official) were on the desert road, which went SW from Yerushalayim to the Mediterranean, then SE into Jordan and Saudi Arabia. It is called the desert road for good reason- the only suitable mikvah on this road is the Mediterranean itself. According to Rav S, who was raised in Yisro'el, there is a rock shelf extending far out into the water there. Now, to properly do tevilah, someone (usually the Rabbi) had to read from or the Prophets as you went in a immersed yourself. Typically the one reading stood on dry ground as they read; however here because the rock shelf made the water shallow far out, then droped off, Phillipos had to go into the water and standing in the shallows read as the "eunuch" immersed himself. Christians take this one instance and, reading into it greatly develop a doctrine that you must be dunked by the preacher. Furthermore any pool of water large enough would do. Being raised the son of a Baptist minister I can tell you we did NOT "waste" water by leaving the tap on in the baptismal.

teshuva- usually translatd as repentance, which is true, but we were all told this means to simply turn away. Wrong. In Hebrew thought, true repentance is to return to the original state where Adam and Chavah walked with Elohim. Not just "I'm sorry" or "I won't do it again," there is an idea here of all that and more; a restoration of fellowship with a Holy God who cannot look upon sin. This is the covenant we make when we accept His salvation. It is a relationship as well as a commitment.

So tevilah is a solitary act showing we are in a covenant relationship with Hashem. There is also a spiritual aspect to tevilah, whether done as the court official because he accepted Yeshua or simply because we needed purification. It is not a spectator event, as it is usually (but not always) done in semi-solitude. So it doesn't necessarily announce to the world we are saved, as we were taught. It represents a renewal, a cleansing, bringing us into right relationship with a holy and righteous God. To me it is a symbolic act that, unlike many we witness or are told Bible stories about, we not only participate in but feel it as both a whole body and a spiritual experience! Note that it can be an announcement, as when Yeshua went through tevilah at the start of His main ministry. But most often not.

Dan C

[azaliah]

Fascinating, you are brilliant! I have studied the Bible all my life (granted from a mostly goy perspective) and I don't think I have a quarter of the knowledge you posses.

Standards are only valid within the association or assembly which is responsible for your halacha

Logical, that coincides with the "Pastoral" epistles and what I believe is the autonomy of the local believers, with the caveat being that, I personally don't feel any religious leader short of an Apostle or Prophet, has the power to play ad-lib with Hashems word, which is precisely what I hear every Sunday, "what G-d's saying her folks...", and I am like, "How do you know that? Are you prophesying here, did you rank up in the heavenly kingdom, just exactly where do you get that, because the passage is clearly....arguable?" Then you know you ask behind doors, and the answer you get is....wait for it....tradition! "Well so and so super smart theologian from so and so University has made his intellectual decree and if you don't accept it, maybe you are really a (insert denomination here)."

I read over your whole post a couple times, and I will probably do it a few more times, but from what I get here you are equating Baptism to....well kinda like taking a spiritual bath? Until recently Leviticus was my second least favorite book, second only to any book with a multitude of "begats" in it. But I remember reading about the rituals of cleansing, though I seem to remember something about bathing in a river. Either way I can draw a direct line between Baptism and well...cleansing. I am not sure if Baptism is limited to it or not, or rather, I accept what you say is accurate, I am just not entirely sure I subscribe to that limitation yet, I will study "tevilah" more, but it sounds really neat!

"Dan, you dummy! You just used an essentially Jewish translation of a New Testament scripture to illustrate a Christian concept!"

I always preferred the Greek, my Greek was a lot better at one time, now it's rusty. This is only because if I understand right, the autographs of the autographs were in Greek. Whether the apostles wrote in Greek I don't know. However I understood why you were using the Hebrew translation, because it illustrates a Hebrew ritual/tradition/mitzvah, and it helped me understand your point better if I did?

teshuva- usually translated as repentance, which is true, but we were all told this means to simply turn away. Wrong. In Hebrew thought, true repentance is to return to the original state where Adam and Chavah walked with Elohim.

How enlightening, so you are saying the Hebrew idea, of "repentance" is a return to a sinless state? Fascinating, that would indeed explain a lot of things! Thank you for that!

[alon]

Credit the brilliance to Rav S (my Rabbi), R Reuel and others here, studies of some really smart people and even my father.

I personally hate the Greek with a passion! I, like many scholars are coming to think, say the entire Bible including the B'rith Chadasha were written in Hebrew. There was a saying, "It is better to feed your child the flesh of swine than to teach him Greek!" Also note that the word "oink" has a distinctively Greek sound to it ...

... so you are saying the Hebrew idea, of "repentance" is a return to a sinless state? ...

Note I am not saying we are sinless, just that in repentance we are granted a covering; and now in Yeshua we have the ultimate covering for our sins. However repentance means that, unlike so many Christians, we do not believe it is license to sin. If you are striving to maintain that close, covenant relationship, you will try to not sin intentionally. You may be forgiven 70 times 7 times for a sin, but after a while your "repentance" would tend to get a little stale. I know, because some of my more stubborn sin natural tendencies really test my resolve to repent without ceasing ... if that made sense. (Ask my wife ...)

Dan C

[alon]

Oct 2, 2015 22:43:33 GMT -8 alon said:

... To me it is a symbolic act that, unlike many we witness or are told Bible stories about, we not only participate in but feel it as both a whole body and a spiritual experience! ...

What do I mean by this. Well, the spiritual aspect is obviouse if we think about water as representative of the Ruach HaChodesh:

1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV) For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

John 7:37-39 (ESV) On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Isaiah 44:3 (ESV) For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.

But what about the whole body physical experience? Obviously we get wet, so there is a physical to spiritual connection right there. But for the deeper meaning, I'll have to go back to my martial arts days. When you stand, gravity is required to set the ball and socket joint in your hip in place. Gravity is also required to maintain the structure of this joint, and thus your stance. When you are upweighted, structure is destroyed and your proprioceptive nervous system (that thing which tells you where and how you are anchored in the universe relative to everything else) senses this as "floating," an appropriate term for this discussion. Your environment here is the water, and you sense a buoyant rather than anchored state. This is felt at your very core as a sense of reaching upward; which is I think one reason against being supported when "baptized." The body (PNS) wants to anchor, yet wants to rise at the same time. Thus heaven and earth are connected- the spiritual and the physical. And we are essentially spiritual beings created to serve Hashem in the physical world.

Does this mean swimming is a spiritual experience? Well, I'll leave it up to you ... just remember someone probably peed in the pool, so ... . Actually no, because our minds must also be focused on Hashem. This is one reason we must hear the reading of the Word. And going in the water without teshuva would be pointless for tevilah. Mind, body and spirit; to me the experience is transforming. Just my thoughts.

Dan C

edit: I know that is kid of hard to understand. it is just how I relate things in my own (probably somewhat twisted) mind. 

[lou]

In Jewish marriages long before the nt, the virgin would go into a mikvah belonging to her father n emerge belonging to her husband. I think that's why Yah chose thus ritual to teach us how to belong to Him. We in essence are married to Yah in a holy covenant. 

[alon]

Romans 10:13 (ESV) For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The phrase “on the name of the Lord” is completely misunderstood today. I’ve heard everything from “it means say the name out loud” to “it is a formula for salvation” and the Sacred Names corollary “if you don’t say the Name correctly you are not saved.” All these and many more are incorrect.

In the southern wall of the Temple if you visit Jerusalem, you will see several steps and gates which used to lead to mikvahot, immersion pools made for the purpose of spiritual purification, or cleansing. Many, many of these pools are found near entrances to the Temple so that people could purify themselves before going into the Temple to worship God. You didn’t just worship God the way you were. One of the things pilgrims would do is purify themselves before entering the Temple.

Even if they felt they were pure, they would still make an immersion before they would go into God’s presence, just to say we are never pure enough. Even in our highest purity we’re still not perfect; we need God’s purification. We know this water is not going to magically do anything for us, but we are showing God we are in need of His mercy and grace and forgiveness. If He looks down upon this ritual and sees in our hearts this is what we want to be before Him, then He will hold us as pure before Him and we will worship Him as with a pure heart.

All the mikvahot would have been covered then. People would go in, strip down, immerse themselves, get dressed then go in and worship. This was not a spectator event, but was between the person and God.

What really confuses people is the phrase “in the name of.” What that actually means is “for the sake of” or “on behalf of.” Today people are baptized and they end the prayer or scriptural quote with “in the name of Jesus.” It has become a catch phrase and a formula. But this was simply a way of speech in the 1st cen, a euphemism.

Matthew 10:41-42 (ESV) The one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and the one who receives a righteous person because he is a righteous person will receive a righteous person's reward. And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.”

It is interesting that Yeshua uses the phrase “in the name of” a prophet, or righteous man, or disciple. Basically if a person treats a prophet kindly because he is recognized as a prophet, they will get a special reward from God. The same if a person recognizes a righteous person and treats him accordingly. The same if a kindness is rendered to a disciple because they are recognized as such. So when we say “in the name of Jesus” what we mean is “for the sake of" or "on behalf of" or "in honor of Jesus.” There are so many ways of saying it. But today people use it as a magic formula.

“In the name of the Lord” is a common phrase used throughout the Bible, however it is a difficult one for us today to understand. But it parallels Yeshua’s use in the above verses. So to be baptized in the name of Jesus is to be baptized for the sake of Jesus. To be kind to someone, or to help them out “in the name of Jesus” is to act on His behalf. So go, purify yourselves because of your sins, be pure before God and you will receive the Hoy Spirit. But understand that tevilah, ritual immersion in a mikvah is an outward manifestation of an inward heart condition, or it is nothing at all.

In order to understand this, we need to look at it as a person of the 1st cen CE would- not having the institution or ritual of baptism as we know it, but as an observant Jew of that time would know it. They now do tevilah because they recognize Yeshua died, rose from the dead, and He is the promised Moshiach, heir to the throne of Melech Dovid and Anointed One of God.

Acts 2:41-43 (ESV) So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe [fear] came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.

Note their actions in obedience proclaimed they really believed. They stayed and studied and fellowshipped. Those who are saved want the company of other believers. Those who received the Ruach through faith and trust in Yeshua are now ritually immersed in His name because they hold this truth in their hearts:

Romans 10:9 (ESV) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

We follow Yeshua in tevilah/baptism because we wish to show HaShem we want to be more like Him, to be pure before Him as we now worship the One True God of Israel. Again, an outward manifestation of an inward condition.

[Paraphrased from a class from Prof Pinchas Shir of the Israel Bible Institute.]

[Questor]

Jan 29, 2020 11:34:15 GMT -8 alon said:

Romans 10:13 (ESV) For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The phrase “on the name of the Lord” is completely misunderstood today.

Well, I tend to interpret the phrase used so badly by the Greeks as 'name'...in the way Abba was making a name for himself by building up the Israelites. Thus, a reputation and a heritage are what someone undergoing tevilah is looking to be added into...Yeshua's righteousness and inheritance.

However, it confuses me that anyone is to be mikvahed into the Name of the Father (YHVH), the Son (Yeshua), and the Holy Spirit (Ruach ha Kodesh) without actually saying, to the best of their ability, the Father's name.  Speaking YHVH verbally was not forbidden in the Talmud at the time, so why do we not do it now?  There are no Rabbi's being burned alive for saying Abba's name...to the best of their ability of course, and while avoiding over-sensitive Islamic folk in places like Syria, Iraq, and Iran.

My prayer life, when saying the Shema, and what follows in my less than observant way, has deepened considerably since using Abba's names, descriptions and titles in prayer a great deal...since I am doing it as a matter of praise and exaltation. And being Sephardic, you can guess how I pronounce Abba's name.

[alon]

Feb 8, 2020 11:57:25 GMT -8 Questor said:

Jan 29, 2020 11:34:15 GMT -8 alon said:

Romans 10:13 (ESV) For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The phrase “on the name of the Lord” is completely misunderstood today.

Well, I tend to interpret the phrase used so badly by the Greeks as 'name'...in the way Abba was making a name for himself by building up the Israelites. Thus, a reputation and a heritage are what someone undergoing tevilah is looking to be added into...Yeshua's righteousness and inheritance. A good way of looking at it. 

However, it confuses me that anyone is to be mikvahed (pooled? ) into the Name of the Father (YHVH), the Son (Yeshua), and the Holy Spirit (Ruach ha Kodesh) without actually saying, to the best of their ability, the Father's name. Many Messianics, as we here on the forum do, think more in terms of not abusing or overusing the sacred name so that it becomes common. But I/we see nothing wrong with using any of the names of the Most High in worship or prayer. This includes the Covenant name of Adonai (the Tetramagramaton, if you'll excuse my Greek). I would say this extends to tevilah. (And for the record, and as you already know, I dislike Greek applied to holy writ of any kind as well; but sadly, it's wot we got.) 


Speaking YHVH verbally was not forbidden in the Talmud at the time, so why do we not do it now?  There are no Rabbi's being burned alive for saying Abba's name...to the best of their ability of course, and while avoiding over-sensitive Islamic folk in places like Syria, Iraq, and Iran. Islam and their fake sensitivities are not a concern here. However you choose to pronounce it, we do not believe the Covenant Name is forbidden us. Just stay away from Sacred Names and others who would make a mockery of it for their own perceived status as ones who are knowledgable. There are really only 3 common renderings.  I have my preference (which the rules forbid my telling you), but as long as respectfully used I try to avoid arguments about which is correct. All others I will denounce to anyones face as false, sometimes quite forcefully. But that's about as far as the rules will allow me to go on this topic. LOL, I already had to delete some of my reply as it is! 

My prayer life, when saying the Shema, and what follows in my less than observant way, has deepened considerably since using Abba's names, descriptions and titles in prayer a great deal...since I am doing it as a matter of praise and exaltation. And being Sephardic, you can guess how I pronounce Abba's name. See, now you are trying to get me in trouble! 

Good to see you here again!

Dan C

[Questor]

Feb 8, 2020 12:28:51 GMT -8 alon said:

Feb 8, 2020 11:57:25 GMT -8 Questor said:

Well, I tend to interpret the phrase used so badly by the Greeks as 'name'...in the way Abba was making a name for himself by building up the Israelites. Thus, a reputation and a heritage are what someone undergoing tevilah is looking to be added into...Yeshua's righteousness and inheritance. A good way of looking at it. Thanks!

However, it confuses me that anyone is to be mikvahed (pooled? ) (dunked? ) into the Name of the Father (YHVH), the Son (Yeshua), and the Holy Spirit (Ruach ha Kodesh) without actually saying, to the best of their ability, the Father's name. Many Messianics, as we here on the forum do, think more in terms of not abusing or overusing the sacred name so that it becomes common. But I/we see nothing wrong with using any of the names of the Most High in worship or prayer. This includes the Covenant name of Adonai (the Tetragrammaton, if you'll excuse my Greek). I would say this extends to tevilah. (And for the record, and as you already know, I dislike Greek applied to holy writ of any kind as well; but sadly, it's wot we got.)  I know...and my Hebrew is a lot less than I need!  But even in public, I dislike using 'Adonai' in the Shema (It reminds of all those 'Lords' in the standard Bible's)...so I am very very apt to breathe that part out.


Speaking YHVH verbally was not forbidden in the Talmud at the time, so why do we not do it now?  There are no Rabbi's being burned alive for saying Abba's name...to the best of their ability of course, and while avoiding over-sensitive Islamic folk in places like Syria, Iraq, and Iran. Islam and their fake sensitivities are not a concern here. However you choose to pronounce it, we do not believe the Covenant Name is forbidden us. Just stay away from Sacred Names and others who would make a mockery of it for their own perceived status as ones who are knowledgable. There are really only 3 common renderings.  I have my preference (which the rules forbid my telling you), but as long as respectfully used I try to avoid arguments about which is correct. All others I will denounce to anyones face as false, sometimes quite forcefully. But that's about as far as the rules will allow me to go on this topic. LOL, I already had to delete some of my reply as it is!     Well, I am not here to discuss how to say Abba's name, as that is forbidden...I know what the Hebrew says, and I know there are disputes over it, but being Sephardic myself, and with a Sephardic Hebrew Teacher, my pronunciations of various things...like the word 'and' in Hebrew just doesn't sound the same as the Ashkenazi's pronounce things, much less a generalized Western corruption of haShem's name.

My prayer life, when saying the Shema, and what follows in my less than observant way, has deepened considerably since using Abba's names, descriptions and titles in prayer a great deal...since I am doing it as a matter of praise and exaltation. And being Sephardic, you can guess how I pronounce Abba's name. 


See, now you are trying to get me in trouble! 

Nonsense, I said you could guess...not that you should write out your guess!

Good to see you here again!

Dan C

Thanks...I never quite go away, you know!