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Post by zionlion on Aug 8, 2010 18:54:17 GMT -8
I haven't had time to look over this site, but it has some interesting articles. It appears to be an "anti-missionary" site, which is fine, since I'm not a missionary. I'm merely an alien who believes what the Tanakh teaches about Jews and aliens being in covenant relationship with Elohim. See what you think: jewishisrael.com/ |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 9, 2010 21:38:41 GMT -8
I haven't had time to look over this site, but it has some interesting articles. Yes, it does. Thanks for the link. It appears to be an "anti-missionary" site, which is fine, since I'm not a missionary. Please don't mistake this response as a personal attack on you, Zionlion, but I'm absolutely appalled at the lack of concern regarding anti-missionaries. Just because you aren't a missionary doesn't make the anti-missionary movement any less dangerous to a Yeshua based faith. The goal of this movement is FAR more reaching than just an attempt to eliminate believers in Yeshua evangelizing the Jews. It's much...much more than that. As far as anti-missionary web sites go, that place is relatively mellow. Shalom |
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Post by zionlion on Aug 10, 2010 12:25:52 GMT -8
Shalom David,
No, I don't worry too much about anti-missionaries.
Misguided rabbis can't stop the Ruach from revealing Messiah to those Jews who have a heart for Elohim's Truth.
Far more reaching?
If you're speaking of violence, I understand.
But by doing mean and ugly things to other people, they condemn themselves and provide clear evidence that they are far away from the G-d of Israel.
They, of all people, need our prayers.
Blessings to you.
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Post by jimmie on Aug 10, 2010 13:55:05 GMT -8
I am unfamiliar with the missionary/anti-missionary conflict. So I searched for anti-missionary site and the opening statement of the first web sight was: We Jews refer to them as "missionaries." We Jews respect Christians who maintain the doctrines of their belief, but we do not accept anyone's "right" to proselytize. That struck me as being vary odd. How can the Jewish nation bless all nations if there isn’t some form of Proselytizing. Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? One of the articles lists five ways that Jesus (Yeshua) broke the law (  ). The “funny” thing was that with one exception, I have heard entire sermons were the preacher makes the same claims of Jesus (Yeshua) intentionally breaking the law to show that it is irrelevant to the New Covenant. So I guess I understand how Jews get the idea that Jesus (Yeshua) was not the Messiah. I would like to look at one example in detail here. Did the disciples break the Law ( ) when they eat corn on the sabbath? Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. 2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days? 3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungered, and they which were with him; 4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the showbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? 5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. In the sermon to which I spoke of, the preacher said that the disciples were indeed breaking the Sabbath law that forbid work. They reaped, (plucked), thrashed (rubbing in hands), and they ground (chewed) the grain. I guess if you take this line of thinking to its’ conclusion they also stole. It wasn’t their standing corn. However the law expressly gives the right to eat of his neighbor’s fields: Deut 23:25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn. It is plain from the above scripture that the disciples in no way broke the Law ( ) when they ate. This law of mercy is not voided on the sabbath. Jesus chose the example of David eating the show bread to highlight what the Pharisees lacked, which is the waiter maters of the law ( ). Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 12, 2010 15:58:59 GMT -8
Shalom David, No, I don't worry too much about anti-missionaries. Misguided rabbis can't stop the Ruach from revealing Messiah to those Jews who have a heart for Elohim's Truth. Sure they can. The Ruach works through people, and doesn't magically zap those whom have never heard the Gospel, with the knowledge of Yeshua. One must present the Gospel for it to be accepted. Far more reaching? If you're speaking of violence, I understand. Violence is just a small part of it. The anti-missionary groups have pressured the Israeli government to pass laws that prohibit Messianic Jews from making Aliyah. Only Orthodox Jews are legally allowed to make Aliyah now. Our brothers, and sisters in Mashiakh are being denyed the right to live in the land that HaShem has promised them. You don't see that as a problem? What about how the anti-missionary groups are changing G-d's word to exclude any interpretation that even hints at Yeshua in the Tanakh prophecies regarding him? Is that a problem? They are doing the same thing the Masorites did, only much worse. That's just the tip of the iceberg too. But hey, far be it from me to try to convince you guys to care about something you don't. This movement is BY FAR the most dangerous threat to the Gospel since the Romans of the first century. I'm afraid that when believers in Yeshua finally wake up to this fact, it will be too late. The irrevocable damage will already have been done. Shalom |
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Post by zionlion on Aug 12, 2010 19:07:46 GMT -8
Yes, the Ruach works through people, which is one reason why the internet is so valuable.
This site gets a fair amount of visitors; I'm sure some of them Jewish.
When they see what is said here, they can either scoff and move on or consider that maybe some further investigation is needed.
They may actually get in the Word and seek G-d about these things.
No rabbi can stop them from doing this.
As to messianic Jews being prohibited from making aliyah, did you ever stop to think that it may not be the Father's will for that to happen yet?
As you well know, year by year, increasing numbers of Jews all over the world, including Israel, are becoming believers.
It will happen - in His time - not ours.
It's not that I don't care.
But I realize that these things are not in my hands.
I pray for them and I tell them the truth.
The Ruach takes over from there.
And don't worry about the Gospel.
Last time I checked, believers are still here while the Romans are long gone.
Shabbat shalom.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 12, 2010 19:45:46 GMT -8
It's not that I don't care. But I realize that these things are not in my hands. Because you made that choice, and no other reason. Being pro-active in the work of the Kingdom is a personal choice, nobody can force you to do it. Like I said, I'm not about to try to make you care about something you don't, or rather, something you feel is out of your hands. I wonder what Yeshua would have said if his Apostles told him "It's out of our hands, it's the the work of the Ruach," when he commisioned them to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and the Goyim? Blessings |
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Post by zionlion on Aug 12, 2010 20:52:38 GMT -8
Again, I pray for them and I tell them.
But I can't make them believe; only the Spirit can do that.
Shalom
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 12, 2010 22:26:31 GMT -8
Again, I pray for them and I tell them. But I can't make them believe; only the Spirit can do that. I understand that, and I'm not trying to dispute something so fundamental. In fact, I don't recall ever saying we need to "make" people believe anything, so I'm not sure where that came from. To be honest with you, I'm against Christians evangelizing Orthodox Jews to begin with. The Jews need to be evangelizing the Christians so they have an opportunity to actually know the G-d of Israel. However, washing our hands of the anti-missionary situation, and saying "It's up to HaShem" isn't going to make it go away. In fact, if we all ignore it, these groups will only gain momentum. As it is now, they have already pressured the Israeli government into passing laws that prohibit Aliyah for Messianic Jews. What's right around the corner? Exiling those Messianic Jews who already reside in Eretz Israel. It doesn't take a very vivid imagination to see that's next. I guess we just aren't on the same page here...obviously. That's okay though. Shalom |
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Post by zionlion on Aug 13, 2010 9:15:30 GMT -8
I'm not quite sure where you're going with this, David.
Assuming that you want to somehow deal with the anti-missionary situation and make it go away, just how do you propose to do it?
I'm not ignoring it; just curious to know what you have in mind.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 14, 2010 20:31:27 GMT -8
I'm not quite sure where you're going with this, David. Assuming that you want to somehow deal with the anti-missionary situation and make it go away, just how do you propose to do it? I'm not ignoring it; just curious to know what you have in mind. Well, for starters, I don't think Messianics should say anti-missionary doctrine is "fine" and then provide links to their web sites, which promote their hateful, and unscriptural ultra-orthodox views. Secondly, Messianics should educate themselves, as well as others, about the evil tactics, and unscriptural doctrines the anti-missionary organizations promote. And last but not least, when given the opportunity, we should rebuke those who wish to pervert the gospel of the Kingdom, and expose their error, just like Sha'ul told brother Titus to do... (Titus 1:9-14 Complete Jewish Bible) He must hold firmly to the trustworthy Message that agrees with the doctrine; so that by his sound teaching he will be able to exhort and encourage, and also to refute those who speak against it. For there are many, especially from the Circumcision faction [ie- the house of Shammai Pharisees] who are rebellious, who delude people's minds with their worthless and misleading talk. They must be silenced; because they are upsetting entire households by teaching what they have no business teaching, and doing it for the sake of dishonest gain. Even one of the Cretans' own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" and it's true! For this reason, you must be severe when you rebuke those who have followed this false teaching, so that they will come to be sound in their trust and no longer pay attention to Judaistic myths or to the commands of people who reject the truth. The Apostolic Scriptures, as well as the Talmud [Pirkei Avot: Mishnah 19] tells us to always be ready, willing, and able to answer/rebuke an heretic. I believe every Messianic should educate themselves, as well as others, about the heretical anti-missionary organizations, and prepare themselves to rebuke them sharply whenever given the opportunity to do so. There's a lot at stake. Shalom *EDIT*I'm glad that you haven't mistaken my comments as a personal attack on you. I like you Zionlion, and that was never my intentions when discussing things with you. I know you got pretty upset with me the last time we exchanged ideas, and I felt awful about it. I'm just horrible at transferring my thoughts into words. Somewhere between the thoughts, and the words, something goes terribly wrong, and people end up with the impression that I'm attacking them, when that's the furthest thing from my mind. Perhaps people need to get used to my posting style to understand the message I'm trying to convey...I don't know. At any rate, thank you for your patience, and not jumping to any conclusions as to my motivation. I appreciate that far more than you'll ever know.  |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 15, 2010 10:46:25 GMT -8
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 15, 2010 12:18:15 GMT -8
Actually, it prevents any Jew who has actively accepted a faith other
than Judaism from making aliyah. It is not restricted to Christian/Messianic Jews. If they convert to Hinduism, or Islam
or any other religion, they lose their right to make aliyah.
This is not true....any Jew, Orthodox or not, who has not converted
to a different religion may make aliyah. Any non-Jew who has at least one Jewish grandparent may make aliyah. Anyone who has converted to Judaism may make aliyah, although there may be issues once they arrive in Israel as to whether they are accepted as being Jewish.
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 15, 2010 12:23:43 GMT -8
Well, for starters, I don't think Messianics should say anti-missionary doctrine is "fine" and then provide links to their web sites, which promote their hateful, and unscriptural ultra-orthodox views. Secondly, Messianics should educate themselves, as well as others, about the evil tactics, and unscriptural doctrines the anti-missionary organizations promote. And last but not least, when given the opportunity, we should rebuke those who wish to pervert the gospel of the Kingdom, and expose their error, just like Sha'ul told brother Titus to do... Not to be rude, but I really don't see why Messianics get upset at counter missionaries. First, the vast majority of Messianics are not Jews, so I see attempts at counter missionaries to keep Jews Jews as not their issue. Counter missionaries do not care what religion non-Jews practice, and they are not likely to try to dissuade you from your faith if you are not a Jew. Just as I don't have a problem with Messianics trying to make other Christians Messianic, Messianics shouldn't have a problem with Jews attempting to maintain Judaism amongst Jews. It's our issue, and no one else's. |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 15, 2010 16:11:09 GMT -8
Not to be rude, but I really don't see why Messianics get upset at counter missionaries. Tonga, now that I am familiar with you, you don't have to worry about offending me, or thinking that you might be rude to me. I know that you post from a clean heart, and not out of spite, or malicious intent. It's not in your nature to do so. You can say whatever you want to me, and I won't get offended. Seriously. But to reply to your above statement, I get upset with ANY group of people who pervert the Tanakh for their own selfish desires, and out of pure hatred for another group of people [ie- anyone who has faith in Yeshua as the promised Mashiakh of Israel]. It's that simple. First, the vast majority of Messianics are not Jews, so I see attempts at counter missionaries to keep Jews Jews as not their issue. Anti-missionaries aren't nearly as interested in keeping Jews Jews, as they are intent on keeping Jews from coming to faith in Yeshua as Mashiakh. And now that you mention "keeping Jews Jews" you are implying that once a Jew comes to faith in Yeshua, they are no longer Jewish. That's an ultra-orthodox mindset, and is completely unscriptural. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that if a Jew believes a certain person to be the Mashiakh, they are no longer Jewish. That's just plain heresy. And in Eretz Israel the vast majority of Messianics ARE Jews. The counterfeit Messianics who are nothing more than Christians with a "Jewish flavor" are not actually Messianics at all. Just because one claims to be Messianic, doesn't make it so. True Messianics practice Judaism, just as Yeshua, and his talmidim did. Perhaps that's where you and I differ, in defining what makes one a true Messianic. Also, true Messianics are bound together as if they are ONE person [ie- the body of Mashiakh]. What you do to my brothers & sisters in Mashiakh, you do to me. That makes it my business/issue. Just as Yeshua taught... (Mattiyahu 25:40 Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha)And in reply, HaMelech [HaMoshiach] will say to them, Omein, I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of the least of these achim of mine, you did it to me. (Yochanon 17:20-23 Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha) However, I do not make a bakosha concerning these only, but also concerning the ones becoming ma'aminim in me [as Moshiach] because of their Dvar, That all may be echad, as You, Avi, are in me and I am in You, that also they may be in us, that the Olam Hazeh may have emunah (faith) that You sent me. The kavod which You have given me, I have given them, that they may be echad just as we are echad. I in them and You in me that they may become tamim (perfect) in Achdut (Unity) that the Olam Hazeh may have da'as that You sent me, and had ahavah for them, just as You have ahavah for me. Just as Jewish folks are taught to stick together according to , so too are Messianics, since we share in the same . Contrary to the views of Orthodox Judaism, true Messianics are indeed members of Israel, and brothers & sisters through Avraham Avinu & Yeshua HaMashiakh... (Galatians 3:27-29 Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha) For as many as have had a tevilah into Moshiach have clothed yourselves with Moshiach. There is not Yehudi nor Yevani (Greek), there is not eved (servant) nor Ben Chorin (freedman), there is not zachar (male) nor nekevah (female), for you are all echad in Moshiach Yehoshua. And, if you belong to Moshiach, then you are of the ZERA of Avraham Avinu, you are yoreshim (heirs) according to the havtachah (promise). (Ephesians 2:11-19 Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha) Therefore, have zikaron (remembrance) that formerly you, the Goyim in the flesh, who are called "arelim" (uncircumcised ones) by the ones being called "nimolim" (circumcised ones) which is a Bris Milah performed in the flesh by human hands Have zikaron (remembrance) that you were at that time bazunder (unrelated and separate) from Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, having been alienated from the torat haEzrakhut (the citizenship) in the Am Brit, from Yisroel, being zarim (strangers) to the Beritot HaHavtacha, farloiren (lost) and having no tikvah (hope) and without G-d in the Olam Hazeh. But now in Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach Yehoshua, you, who formerly where in the outermost courts, have been brought near by the kapporah of the dahm of Moshiach. For Moshiach himself is our shalom, who made the Shneym into Echad, having broken down in the basar of Moshiach the barrier of the Mechitzah (the dividing partition), the Soreg (barrier of the holy precinct in the Beis HaMikdash between Jews and non-Jews), the Eyvah (Enmity), By annulling the chok (decree, law) of mishpatim in ordinances that the Shnaym He might create in Himself into Adam Chadash Echad (One New Humanity), arbitrating shalom, And that Moshiach might bring the ritztzuy (reconciliation, cessation of enmity), reconciling to Hashem the Shnaym into one guf (body) [BERESHIS 47:18; TEHILLIM 16:9-10; IYOV 19:25-27; YESHAYAH 53:11] through the Moshiach's Etz, having put to death the Eyvah by it. And having come, Moshiach preached shalom to you, the ones in the outermost courts, and shalom to the ones near; [TEHILLIM 148:14; YESHAYAH 57:19] Because through Moshiach we both have HaSha'ar laHashem (gate to approach G-d's presence, access of the tzaddikim TEHILLIM 118:20) by one Ruach Hakodesh to Elohim HaAv. Therefore, then, no longer are you zarim and aliens, but you are fellow citizens of the Kadoshim and bnei bayit members of the household of G-d.Counter missionaries do not care what religion non-Jews practice, and they are not likely to try to dissuade you from your faith if you are not a Jew. Agreed. But so what. You know I'm a Messianic, and have I ever once tried to persuade you that Yeshua is Mashiakh? Nope. I never will either. In fact, I'm against non-Jews evangelizing Jews, and I've voiced that opinion many times on this forum. Just as I don't have a problem with Messianics trying to make other Christians Messianic, Messianics shouldn't have a problem with Jews attempting to maintain Judaism amongst Jews. It's our issue, and no one else's. That is only your personal opinion, and you have a right to that. However, I think I stated very clearly in Scriptural terms, why it is indeed my business. And every true Messianics business as well. So we will have to agree to disagree on this issue, Tonga. Also, I think your a bit delusioned that anti-missionaries are ONLY interested in "maintaining Judaism amongst Jews." They aren't. They are an outright "anti-Yeshua" establishment. Period. What is the opinion of anti-missionaries regarding the Chasidic movement, and their belief that Rebbe Shneerson is Mashiakh? Case closed. Shalom |
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and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. [Numbers 15:16]
