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Post by zionlion on Aug 15, 2010 17:18:51 GMT -8
David, You like me? No kidding? How 'bout that - you're the first!  Seriously, thanks for the kind words. I don't deserve them but I appreciate them. I admit I went a little carnal in our last exchange. I felt badly about it, too. I repented before our Lord and I sincerely apologize to you. Now, let's go get those anti-missionaries.  |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 15, 2010 17:32:24 GMT -8
Actually, it prevents any Jew who has actively accepted a faith other than Judaism from making aliyah. It is not restricted to Christian/Messianic Jews. If they convert to Hinduism, or Islam or any other religion, they lose their right to make aliyah. That is correct, but I thought it to be irrelevant to include such groups in a Messianic theology forum. This is not true....any Jew, Orthodox or not, who has not converted to a different religion may make aliyah. Any non-Jew who has at least one Jewish grandparent may make aliyah. Anyone who has converted to Judaism may make aliyah, although there may be issues once they arrive in Israel as to whether they are accepted as being Jewish. That is also correct, but once again, I thought it to be a moot point in a Messianic theology forum. Perhaps I should have been more concise, and stated "It is illegal for Messianic Jews to make Aliyah." Shalom, Tonga |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 15, 2010 17:42:05 GMT -8
David, You like me? No kidding? How 'bout that - you're the first! Seriously, thanks for the kind words. I don't deserve them but I appreciate them. I admit I went a little carnal in our last exchange. I felt badly about it, too. I repented before our Lord and I sincerely apologize to you. Apology accepted. I repented as well. I admit that I can indeed be a bit abrasive at times. My passion for G-d's word can get me in trouble sometimes, when that passion comes out as an attack on my own brethren. This has been a problem for me ever since I started posting in theology forums about a decade ago. It's gotten much better, but I still need to work on it. So, I apologize to you as well, Bro. Now, let's go get those anti-missionaries.  Case in point why I like you...you have a great sense of humor! Shalom |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 15, 2010 22:43:49 GMT -8
That is correct, but I thought it to be irrelevant to include such groups in a Messianic theology forum. I do not think it is irrelevant at all-otherwise it makes it seem that Israel is singling out Messianics, which is not true. AnyJew who converts away from Judaism to any other religion loses that right of return. Again, I don't think it's irrelevant. Yes, Messianic Jews may not make aliyah, but they are not being treated any differently than any other Jew who last left Judaism for a different faith....and it has nothing to do with Orthodox Jews being able to do make aliyah. |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 15, 2010 23:39:46 GMT -8
I do not think it is irrelevant at all-otherwise it makes it seem that Israel is singling out Messianics, which is not true. Fair enough. The Israeli government is not singling out Messianics within their policy of Aliyah. However, the fact that they deny Jews of other religious groups the right of return, is indeed irrelevant to any discussion concerning anti-missionaries [which is the topic at hand] because the anti-missionaries do not target any other religious group. See what I'm saying? It's not the Israeli government that is singling out Messianics, it's the anti-missionaries. Any Jew who converts away from Judaism to any other religion loses that right of return. I'm well aware of that. Can I ask you if you agree with this policy concerning Aliyah? Again, I don't think it's irrelevant. Yes, Messianic Jews may not make aliyah, but they are not being treated any differently than any other Jew who last left Judaism for a different faith....and it has nothing to do with Orthodox Jews being able to make aliyah. Again, it's the anti-missionaries that treat Messianics differently than any other other religious group a Jew may have joined, not the Israeli government. Perhaps I should have clarified these things better, but like I said, the discussion was concerning anti-missionaries, and their agenda towards Messianics, so I thought it was irrelevant. And honestly, it is. Personally, I do not wish to travel down a rabbit trail concerning Jews of other religions, and their right of return. Can you give us your personal views concerning these things? Shalom, Tonga |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 16, 2010 6:29:16 GMT -8
I think the reason why is obvious-Chrisitanity/Messianic is the faith that Jews are most likely to convert to. These groups spend countless hours of effort and a lot of dollars to convert Jews; ergo Jews are going to be most susceptable to their approach. Counter missionaries are going to to put their effort to where they think they can be most effective. Yes I do. Israel should be an Jewish state, and we should not permit avodah zara to be brought into it-unfortunately there is plenty of it already  and enough anti-  actions going on. Well, to tread lightly so as not to break any forum rules... I think only Jews should be allowed to make aliyah. Not someone who has enough ancestry to qualify, but isn't a Jew. Take the non-Jewish Russians for example-from friends I know in Israel, the Russians have caused many many problems. Gang and drug problems, opening pork stores,anti-semitism, and mafia organizations that would make the Sopranos look like a bunch of pansies.My friend in Netanya is moving out because of the Russians that are moving in and causing issue after issue. We don't need more Jews in Israel that have involved themselves in another religion. To me it is an affront to G-d. We are to eradicate the avodah zara in our midst, not increase it. |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 16, 2010 11:33:37 GMT -8
And I could say exactly the same thing about Missionaries. Why do you think that counter Missionaries are perverting the Tanach, full of hatred and self desire? Do not they
believe they are correctly interpretting the word of the Almighty?
And that they are protecting the Jewish people?
To us it is the same thing. Becoming a Christian means one leaves Judaism. They may be halachcaly Jewish, but they are not longer a part of the Jewish faith and the Jewish people. I cannot think of a single Messianic I have conversed with online that was not intermarried. For some reason, in my experience on the internet,
Jewish males are more likely to be involved in the Messisanic faith than are Jewish females. This means the males are intermarrying with gentile females, and their children are not Jews. So in addition to the problem with avodah zara, you have the issue of losing Jewish souls through intermarriage.
They are still Jews, but they are not longer a part of the Jewish community, and they are no longer a part of Judaism.
I'm not sure about that-from web surfing around it seems a very large part of the Messianic movement in Israel is Russian, and a very large percentage of Russians are not Jews.
They may be applying the external trappings of Traditional Judaism, but they are practicing a Christian religion.
"Orthodox Jewish" NT? Oh c'mon...there is no such thing An
Orthodox Jew by definition cannot be a Christian .
And...these translations are just plain silly....again Jewish
trappings. And quoting the NT is not relevant to me.
]
We disagree, which is as far as I will go, given the rules of the forum.
Of course they are "anti" Jesus....they wish to prevent Jews from
becoming Christians. They wish to bring Jews back to Judaism, not a Christianized version of it.
Chabad does not believe the Rebbe was G-d, they do not believe he was sent to take away man's sins. Mistakenly believing in a false messiah is not necessarily mean a person has transgressed into avodah zara...it's all the other Christian theology that Messianics accept that is the issue. Although accepting a false messiah would definitely put one outside the norm of Jewish belief.
and let's be honest....with all the hundreds of thousands of Jews killed over the centuries by Christians, and the rabid anti-semitism that exists, that forced Jews into a poor existence...when we see a Jew become a Christian, we consider him a traitor.
Given that, Chabad has done a lot of damage to itself among Jews.
There were many many statements of condemnation against them for those that believe the Rebbe is moshiach. They have lost a lot of support in the Jewish world. In our community many people will have nothing to do with them until they stamp out such nonsense.
They are making an attempt, but it will be a difficult process to complete.
And I better shut up before I get myself banned.....
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 16, 2010 14:32:58 GMT -8
And I better shut up before I get myself banned..... Before I respond to your comments at length, I wanted to make one quick statement concerning the above quote...You are NOT going to be banned from this forum [if I have anything to say about it]. Everyone here knows your a Jewess. Therefore, we should not expect your responses to our questions to be agreeable with Messianic theology. That's just being naive. Jews & Messianics should be able to sit down [so to speak] and discuss matters that affect both of our faiths, without the threat of being banned. I might remind my Messianic brethren here that natural born Jews are members of Israel...the same Nation we believe we are grafted into. Therefore, natural born Jews are indeed our brethren, and NOT "the enemy." I believe it is important that Jews & Messianics discuss matters of faith in a safe, and honest environment. So if you get banned for honestly giving your opinion in matters of faith, then I'll be right behind you. If you go, then I go. I hope you feel a little more comfortable knowing that, Tonga. The very name of this forum is "The Love Of G-d." Banning someone simply because they are Jewish is NOT showing the love of G-d at all. So you needn't worry about that, Tonga. If anything, I believe you are a real asset to this forum, as representing the Jewish faith. Also, I commend you for your courage in coming here and discussing things with us Messianics. Your quite an extraordinary woman, Tonga. Shalom |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 16, 2010 15:42:19 GMT -8
I know, but it was made very clear what parameters I should
follow in order not to be "asked" to leave...and I think I'm getting
awfully close to stepping outside them...so I think I'll drop the conversation now.
I agree, but both sides tend to get to concerned about
missionary-anti-missionary activity, and try to find it even
when it's not there. It inhibits free exchange of thoughts and
discussions, unfortunately.
Thank you, that is quite kind.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 16, 2010 15:57:18 GMT -8
I think I'm getting awfully close to stepping outside them...so I think I'll drop the conversation now. It's too bad you feel that way, but I'll honor that decision. There's no need for me to respond to your last post then, if your reply would be outside your comfort zone. Shalom |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 16, 2010 16:06:53 GMT -8
I think I'm getting awfully close to stepping outside them...so I think I'll drop the conversation now. It's too bad you feel that way, but I'll honor that decision. There's no need for me to respond to your last post then, if your reply would be outside your comfort zone. Shalom It's not a matter of me feeling that way, it's a matter of me honoring commitments I made when I was allowed to stay here as a part of the forum   |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Aug 16, 2010 18:48:27 GMT -8
It's not a matter of me feeling that way, it's a matter of me honoring commitments I made when I was allowed to stay here as a part of the forum I can respect that. I too made a commitment when I accepted the staff position. Maybe it's best that we just drop it altogether? Shalom |
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Post by zionlion on Aug 17, 2010 11:33:51 GMT -8
tonga, I, too, want you to know how glad I am that you came here and decided to stick around. There are two questions I've always wanted to ask you. Does your rabbi know you come here and when are you gonna get an avatar? |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Aug 17, 2010 12:04:47 GMT -8
tonga, I, too, want you to know how glad I am that you came here and decided to stick around. There are two questions I've always wanted to ask you. Does your rabbi know you come here and when are you gonna get an avatar? LOL, I've never mentioned it to them (I have several rabbis I consider "my" rabbi), but I doubt they'd care, LOL. I'm just lazy about getting an avatar....maybe that will be my goal for this week, to find one. |
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Post by jimmie on Aug 17, 2010 14:21:40 GMT -8
Tonga,
Why don't you use a "zebaa" as an avtar. Great cartoon.
Jimmie
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and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. [Numbers 15:16]
