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Post by alon on Dec 18, 2013 11:00:18 GMT -8
... I'm feeling a bit black and blue from talking to a guy that has a lot of Jews-for-Judaism stuff in his head, and though I am trying to nudge the conversation over to just one single topic, like why Yeshua cannot be HaShem, he's slamming me with fifty learned responses, and I barely know what to say next. Very common tactic of those who are fearful of your answers. Don't allow him to do this; tell him you are going to answer his scriptural references one at a time. He may make an excuse and leave, but every time he does he'll be convicted because he'll know he just ran. The same way as now. I can't find the reference in Leviticus, however I recall there were some sins done deliberately which could not be covered by sacrifice. The only way to get atonement was to fall on your face and beg God's mercy and forgiveness. Sorry, I don't have the time to look further right now ... Try just talking to him and mostly listening. Try to learn how he thinks, as thee is a difference in Jewish thought processes and our own Greek system of thought and theology (which we need to come out of ourselves anyhow). Maybe ask an incisive question now and again. But don't try to convert him as much as to dissuade him by your example. Good to see you on the forum too, btw. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Dec 18, 2013 14:19:46 GMT -8
I found two of the references, though not the ones I wanted:
Numbers 15:30-31 "'But an individual who does something wrong intentionally, whether a citizen or a foreigner, is blaspheming ADONAI. That person will be cut off from his people. 31 Because he has had contempt for the word of ADONAI and has disobeyed his command, that person will be cut off completely; his offense will remain with him.'"
Psalm 51:16-17 For you don't want sacrifices, or I would give them; you don't take pleasure in burnt offerings. My sacrifice to God is a broken spirit; God, you won't spurn a broken, chastened heart.
Many are told today that doing mitzvoth, or good deeds, for others is a replacement for sacrifices.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Dec 19, 2013 17:27:56 GMT -8
... I'm feeling a bit black and blue from talking to a guy that has a lot of Jews-for-Judaism stuff in his head, and though I am trying to nudge the conversation over to just one single topic, like why Yeshua cannot be HaShem, he's slamming me with fifty learned responses, and I barely know what to say next. Very common tactic of those who are fearful of your answers. Don't allow him to do this; tell him you are going to answer his scriptural references one at a time. He may make an excuse and leave, but every time he does he'll be convicted because he'll know he just ran. The same way as now. I can't find the reference in Leviticus, however I recall there were some sins done deliberately which could not be covered by sacrifice. The only way to get atonement was to fall on your face and beg God's mercy and forgiveness. Sorry, I don't have the time to look further right now ... Try just talking to him and mostly listening. Try to learn how he thinks, as thee is a difference in Jewish thought processes and our own Greek system of thought and theology (which we need to come out of ourselves anyhow). Maybe ask an incisive question now and again. But don't try to convert him as much as to dissuade him by your example. Good to see you on the forum too, btw. Dan C Thank you for the welcome, and the advice. Thinking in the Greco-Roman mindset, and hearing Yeshua's Messianic Discourse as Hebraic is not that difficult most of the time, so long as I avoid most Christian teaching. And in reading all of the commentaries of Judaic thought is fairly easy as well, so long as I pay attention to the Ruach haKodesh, and dismiss what does not ring true. It is in conversation I have a great deal of problem, as I cannot review what I think before I say it, at least not when the person I am talking to has memorized the entire anti-missionary talking points. I fully understand the "Christian" way of belief, and their language...it's just that I find fault with the rules and regulations of Christian Church Culture. It is why I became Messianic long ago, when David Stern brought out his Messianic Manifesto, trying to get to the point where Rabbinical ways after 200bc could be dropped from Judaism. I know that Stern doesn't want anything less Jewish about Judaism...just a return to Scripture, and I assume the traditions that came down from Moses. I also cannot believe that all the Jewish Sages were wrong in all their commentaries...just that not everything YHVH has said in the Scriptures has been fully covered there. I know that the extremes of Pharisaic thought could be said to originate as a backlash against Antiochus Antiphanes...an attempt to re-Judaize those Jews that fell under the Greek influence. Somehow, by the time we get to the Pharisees in the time of Yeshua, the teaching must have gone overboard when making more rules to place around the fence that goes around the  ! I do not want to take up any cultural tradition that disputes plain scripture...Jewish or Christian. So much remains intact from the Days of the Apostles...weeding out what says what the Rabbi's say are more important than what YHVH says should be simple, by comparing any commentary to the actual scriptures, but I know it's not, particularly if you are a practicing Jew that has added on the teachings of the Brit Chadashah. How do you figure out what part of Jewish traditions to dispense with? We do have to be grateful that so much was carried on by the various Christian entities after the apostles died, but it is also desirable to shed the Pagan attachments to the Brit Chadashah, the Catholic and Orthodox views, and all the strange byways that Protestant belief has gotten into. Unfortunately, my anti-missionary aquaintance does not see a difference between Messianic Belief (whether Jewish or Gentile), and Christianity...He only sees himself as truly Messianic in waiting for Maschiach ben David, and all the rest of us as very wrong, simply because of Yeshua being so necessary within our beliefs. In another thread here discussing Deuteronomy 24:1-4, I realized that my acquaintaince has not yet thought about the need for a Goel to get around the fact that YHVH divorced Israel because of her sins. Someone has to die for that sin, and only YHVH as Yeshua could act as that Goel...since death is the penalty for Israel's sin. Killing Israel for her sin doesn't enable YHVH to remarry His former Bride, so YHVH provided the Goel in Yeshua. I do wish I knew the way to do a legal dissertation in the Jewish manner to go over over the legalities involved. I truly believe that until my acquaintance sees nothing can redeem Israel from deserving death, and having that death sentence pronounced against her, he will not even consider that YHVH would want to find a way to get around His own law in order to show mercy in full justice. Has anything been written that would provide such an argument? |
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Post by Questor on Dec 19, 2013 17:37:37 GMT -8
I found two of the references, though not the ones I wanted: Numbers 15:30-31 "'But an individual who does something wrong intentionally, whether a citizen or a foreigner, is blaspheming ADONAI. That person will be cut off from his people. 31 Because he has had contempt for the word of ADONAI and has disobeyed his command, that person will be cut off completely; his offense will remain with him.'" Psalm 51:16-17 For you don't want sacrifices, or I would give them; you don't take pleasure in burnt offerings. My sacrifice to God is a broken spirit; God, you won't spurn a broken, chastened heart. Many are told today that doing mitzvoth, or good deeds, for others is a replacement for sacrifices. Dan C It is a pity that they are told so. Mitsvoth are great...we are supposed to do that anyway, but that alone is not enough, or why did YHVH go to so much trouble to set up the role of Kinsmen Redeemer in Judaism? It is a necessary and valued role in normal life, and one to be welcomed...but how else does YHVH get around the fact that Israel is defiled in His eyes? |
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Post by alon on Dec 20, 2013 19:30:33 GMT -8
... It is in conversation I have a great deal of problem, as I cannot review what I think before I say it, at least not when the person I am talking to has memorized the entire anti-missionary talking points. The Rabbi's tell us that Moses probably had a speech impediment, based on Ex 4:10. Yet it was Moses who God chose to go to His people as well as Pharaoh with His message. Likewise, you are one (possibly not the only one) that God has put in front of this person with His message. You have all you need as far as speaking abilities; but like Pharaoh, it is up to this individual whether or not he accepts the message. It is only required of you to give it. Religious rules are a way for men to establish control over other men. It's the same with Rabbinical Judaism as with Christians as with Buddhists as with ... name the "religion" and men are there laying down rules. But in Judaism and Christianity, if men are controlling other men, where does God fit in? Yeshua HATED religion! He picked fights with that element of Hebrew religious leadership that wanted to put their rules before every time He met them! That is our base, and what I'd say to advise him; as long as it doesn't contradict scripture, feel free. But scripture has precedence over Talmud and the Rabbi's teaching, or any other man or commentary. That will be the toughest thing for him to understand. But probably only after understanding that will he be able to see Yeshua as haMoshiac clearly! Shedding those pagan attachments is as important to us as is the Jews shedding their ideas about Talmudic supremacy. Adding the B'rit Chadashah is no more a burden to the Jew than is adding for a gentile believer. There's nothing new, and God didn't change His mind. The B'rit Chadashah is just about the fulfillment of the old; and nowhere did God say we were under a new dispensation and could ignore what we don't like in His . God almost did kill them and start over with Moses. (Deu 9:13-14) I don't know about books on the procedures for Jewish dissertation and argument- I'm sure something has been written about it- AND refuted.  Try contacting "Chosen People Ministries" and ask if they have anything that might help. They do have two excellent books on Isaiah 53; "Isaiah 53 Explained" and "The Gospel According to Isaiah 53" that might help you to reach your friend. I believe they will send one or both (not sure) to your friend free, since he is Jewish. Not sure it's permitted to give the website here, but a simple search should get you in touch. Last bit of advice- this is all just advice. You know your friend and the Ruach has put a burden on your heart to reach him. So take this for what it is, my opinion. I pray the Ruach HaChodesh will soften his heart and give you the words to say. Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Dec 21, 2013 1:46:10 GMT -8
... It is in conversation I have a great deal of problem, as I cannot review what I think before I say it, at least not when the person I am talking to has memorized the entire anti-missionary talking points. The Rabbi's tell us that Moses probably had a speech impediment, based on Ex 4:10. Yet it was Moses who God chose to go to His people as well as Pharaoh with His message. Likewise, you are one (possibly not the only one) that God has put in front of this person with His message. You have all you need as far as speaking abilities; but like Pharaoh, it is up to this individual whether or not he accepts the message. It is only required of you to give it. Religious rules are a way for men to establish control over other men. It's the same with Rabbinical Judaism as with Christians as with Buddhists as with ... name the "religion" and men are there laying down rules. But in Judaism and Christianity, if men are controlling other men, where does God fit in? Yeshua HATED religion! He picked fights with that element of Hebrew religious leadership that wanted to put their rules before every time He met them! That is our base, and what I'd say to advise him; as long as it doesn't contradict scripture, feel free. But scripture has precedence over Talmud and the Rabbi's teaching, or any other man or commentary. That will be the toughest thing for him to understand. But probably only after understanding that will he be able to see Yeshua as haMoshiac clearly! Shedding those pagan attachments is as important to us as is the Jews shedding their ideas about Talmudic supremacy. Adding the B'rit Chadashah is no more a burden to the Jew than is adding for a gentile believer. There's nothing new, and God didn't change His mind. The B'rit Chadashah is just about the fulfillment of the old; and nowhere did God say we were under a new dispensation and could ignore what we don't like in His . God almost did kill them and start over with Moses. (Deu 9:13-14) I don't know about books on the procedures for Jewish dissertation and argument- I'm sure something has been written about it- AND refuted. Try contacting "Chosen People Ministries" and ask if they have anything that might help. They do have two excellent books on Isaiah 53; "Isaiah 53 Explained" and "The Gospel According to Isaiah 53" that might help you to reach your friend. I believe they will send one or both (not sure) to your friend free, since he is Jewish. Not sure it's permitted to give the website here, but a simple search should get you in touch. Last bit of advice- this is all just advice. You know your friend and the Ruach has put a burden on your heart to reach him. So take this for what it is, my opinion. I pray the Ruach HaChodesh will soften his heart and give you the words to say. Dan C Since he is still in contact with me after I send him a quote by email, I will keep muddling on. We do not quite get into shouting matches, but we both have to say frequently...LET ME FINISH WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY. Keeping him on topic is a big difficulty...I have tried single points, and he abandons them, and runs circles around me. And when we jump from point to point, even if I bring one up, I often get told that it doesn't matter, because believing in Yeshua makes you not a Jew...even if you are keeping all the commandments. It's very wearing...so I have decided to work on that dissertation I do not know how to write in a Jewish manner, but I do recall how to defend my points, and reiterate them, at least to some degree. When I am happy with what I am trying to say, I'll probably post it for comment, since it will be about needing a Goel to renew a spiritual marriage, and the covenant that goes with it. Thanks for your advice and kind words...the minute I am off the phone with him, I come straight here, just to get my mind calm again. Unfortunately, I think he may be trying to get me to convert to Judaism. He seems to think that the Laodicean lack of being hot or cold is about being Jewish or not Jewish, and tells me not to stay in the middle! But then, he thinks Yeshua is a second god, and that I'm in Idolatry. I'll be covering those points in the dissertation also. I imagine this may take a week or two to put together, but given the guy some room is a wise idea, and I need the time to marshall my arguments. Thank you for praying for me to make a difference in this guy's life, and for the Ruach haKodesh to get involved. I know I will never convince him...only YHVH can call him, and then he has to choose. But I would like to give him good points to think on, well supported by Scripture. And thanks for the referral...I will be reading everything I can on explaining Yeshua. |
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Post by alon on Dec 21, 2013 17:05:24 GMT -8
... Keeping him on topic is a big difficulty... Just keep talking to him. It isn't about "winning" an argument; and you never know what will get through to him. DON'T DO IT QUESTOR!!!  |
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Post by alon on Dec 21, 2013 17:24:19 GMT -8
(It posted while I was typing for some reason ... probably "operator error" ... ) Any way, I'd be surprised if he isn't trying to convert you. Let him argue, you just keep quietly talking to him. I'll tell you a true story. I used to have a good friend who was an AoG minister. We would meet and just study the Bible together, but we didn't agree on several things- one of them was abortion. Ashamed to admit it, but at the time I was pro-abortion. His wife was virulently-violently- and volatilely anti-abortion. His wife and I got into an argument, and I was winning. The more I won the more wound-up she was. I should have known I was in trouble though, because he was quietly reading his Bible and probably silently praying as well. But I was enjoying winning and winding her up too much to notice. At the first lull, he quietly read aloud "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jer 1:5) From that moment I was convicted and my opinion completely and absolutely changed. God's Word is powerful, and even softly inserted into the chaos has the power to convict and change hearts and minds. So let him argue. All you have to do is be quietly available to the Ruach, and the rest is between your friend and God. Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Dec 22, 2013 19:44:00 GMT -8
(It posted while I was typing for some reason ... probably "operator error" ... ) Any way, I'd be surprised if he isn't trying to convert you. Let him argue, you just keep quietly talking to him. I'll tell you a true story. I used to have a good friend who was an AoG minister. We would meet and just study the Bible together, but we didn't agree on several things- one of them was abortion. Ashamed to admit it, but at the time I was pro-abortion. His wife was virulently-violently- and volatilely anti-abortion. His wife and I got into an argument, and I was winning. The more I won the more wound-up she was. I should have known I was in trouble though, because he was quietly reading his Bible and probably silently praying as well. But I was enjoying winning and winding her up too much to notice. At the first lull, he quietly read aloud "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jer 1:5) From that moment I was convicted and my opinion completely and absolutely changed. God's Word is powerful, and even softly inserted into the chaos has the power to convict and change hearts and minds. So let him argue. All you have to do is be quietly available to the Ruach, and the rest is between your friend and God. Dan C I guess that dissertion will need to have a few explanations and a lot of scripture backing it up. Converting to Judaism is not hard to avoid...all I have to think of is discussed in Hebrews: Hebrews 4:1-16 (CJB) 1 Therefore, let us be terrified of the possibility that, even though the promise of entering his rest remains, any one of you might be judged to have fallen short of it; 2 for Good News has also been proclaimed to us, just as it was to them. But the message they heard didn’t do them any good, because those who heard it did not combine it with trust. 3 For it is we who have trusted who enter the rest. It is just as he said, “And in my anger, I swore that they would not enter my rest.” He swore this even though his works have been in existence since the founding of the universe. 4 For there is a place where it is said, concerning the seventh day, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And once more, our present text says, “They will not enter my rest.” 6 Therefore, since it still remains for some to enter it, and those who received the Good News earlier did not enter, 7 he again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David, so long afterwards, in the text already given, “Today, if you hear God’s voice, don’t harden your hearts.” 8 For if Y’hoshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later of another “day.” 9 So there remains a Shabbat-keeping for God’s people. 10 For the one who has entered God’s rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Therefore, let us do our best to enter that rest; so that no one will fall short because of the same kind of disobedience. 12 See, the Word of God is alive! It is at work and is sharper than any double-edged sword — it cuts right through to where soul meets spirit and joints meet marrow, and it is quick to judge the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart. 13 Before God, nothing created is hidden, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account. 14 Therefore, since we have a great cohen gadol who has passed through to the highest heaven, Yeshua, the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we acknowledge as true. 15 For we do not have a cohen gadol unable to empathize with our weaknesses; since in every respect he was tempted just as we are, the only difference being that he did not sin. 16 Therefore, let us confidently approach the throne from which God gives grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace in our time of need. It is true that some of the things he says shakes me for a moment here and there, and standing up against it verbally is difficult, since I do not wish to become angry at what he says. Stomping on my reactions tends me towards a migraine whenever I talk to him, but I like him enough to enjoy him despite all that...or perhaps it's just talking about Yeshua...I don't know. He does not know that if he is dis-respectful to Yeshua, or derogatory in speaking of Christians and Messianic's he may be getting into difficulties...I can't tell exactly if his vehemence is tending in that direction...I only know he is hard to listen to. Mostly, I will try not to convince him of much of anything, except to provide him that reason he needs to believe in Yeshua...that man cannot keep the in full, and YHVH will not be merciful after going to the trouble of selecting them,and then spending century upon century to train the His Chosen Ones in the , and getting them to obey in love and trust if they also reject Him after coming as Yeshua, and taking the curse on Himself so He would not have to condemn Israel. YHVH was so carefully inserting the information in the Tanakh...in Genesis in setting up Levirite marriage, and showing it in Levi's son's: in Job, where Job longs for a go-between; in Ruth where Abba spells it out Ruth as Israel, and Boaz as Himself...I do not see why it is not seen, it seems so plain to me, but I do not have the Adversary throwing dust in my eyes, and YHVH causing me to become hardhearted as time wears on. And YHVH Himself knows how hard a task He had to soften my heart to really listen to Him...He allowed me to be nearly killed and severely damaged to get me to pay attention to Him and only Him. I often think I have gone through all four types of sowing, with the ground being more and more prepared so I would eventually accept the seed of the Word in full...if that is possible. If telling my acquaintance about needing Yeshua as Goel is not enough...with the appropriate scriptural background...and perhaps something from the Sages...to get him to consider that unforgivableness of spiritual adultery...there will be nothing left to say any more. I will only be able to listen, and pray for him. My acquaintance is very much into the legalism of Yeshua being not G-d...as if YHVH cannot do and be whatsoever He chooses, and that El Shaddai has to work within how humans perceive His law, and live by it. It is why I want to do a legal argument of a kind...I want him to have something to refer to when the Ruach haKodesh leads him onward, and I will be praying that the Spirit also enables me to write well, support my argument appropriately, and have it stick in the man's mind. |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Dec 26, 2013 18:47:36 GMT -8
questor-and this is based on the assumption you are not a Jew-maybe it's time
to stop the conversation with your friend.
It seems it is an exercise in futility-he apparently is a trained counter missionary.
You will not benefit by this interaction with him. There is no way you will ever convert him, but there is a possibility he will plant seeds of doubt that will lead you away from your faith. Not being Messianic myself, I don't think you need to change anything you believe. And if you are not a Jew, then it is wrong of him to attempt to dissuade you from your faith. And it is also wrong of him to try to convert you to Judaism, if that is indeed what he is doing. We do not attempt to convert non-Jews to Judaism; as a matter of fact we make it quite challenging to do so. To make sure people are sincere and know what they are getting into.
You stated that "Unfortunately, my anti-missionary aquaintance does not see a difference between Messianic Belief (whether Jewish or Gentile), and Christianity". This is the standard Jewish view of the Messianic faith. Which really confuses me as to why he thinks he needs to change your beliefs.
He views you as a Christian, and ergo he should realize there is no need to try to convert you. All righteous people have a share in the world to come and there is no need for Gentiles to become Jews.
Anyway, just the opinion of an "outsider", lol.
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Post by Questor on Dec 26, 2013 21:25:22 GMT -8
The Need for a Goel questor-and this is based on the assumption you are not a Jew-maybe it's time to stop the conversation with your friend. It seems it is an exercise in futility-he apparently is a trained counter missionary. You will not benefit by this interaction with him. There is no way you will ever convert him, but there is a possibility he will plant seeds of doubt that will lead you away from your faith. Not being Messianic myself, I don't think you need to change anything you believe. And if you are not a Jew, then it is wrong of him to attempt to dissuade you from your faith. And it is also wrong of him to try to convert you to Judaism, if that is indeed what he is doing. We do not attempt to convert non-Jews to Judaism; as a matter of fact we make it quite challenging to do so. To make sure people are sincere and know what they are getting into. You stated that "Unfortunately, my anti-missionary acquaintance does not see a difference between Messianic Belief (whether Jewish or Gentile), and Christianity". This is the standard Jewish view of the Messianic faith. Which really confuses me as to why he thinks he needs to change your beliefs. He views you as a Christian, and ergo he should realize there is no need to try to convert you. All righteous people have a share in the world to come and there is no need for Gentiles to become Jews. Anyway, just the opinion of an "outsider", lol. Thank you...I appreciate your opinion, and your concern for me. I doubt that even vociferous attacks on my trust in Yeshua will do more than make me feel as if I were in a verbal tornado, but I don’t rely on my strength along, but in Yeshua's strength in me. I have been fortunate enough to get stronger and more knowledgeable in my trust in YHVH because of my contact with this man, instead of the opposite, but I do admit it's more than tiring to try and keep the guy to one simple legal point, instead of dancing all over the Scriptures, Tanakh and Brit Chadashah, as if what he sees as dreadful impossibilities between the two would be solved by looking at all of them at once! I cannot be convinced by him, or really anyone to drop my desire to point out what is to me, and other Messianic Believers, a real problem for all Jews, simply because he brings up Constantine, the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Holocaust. What has been has been horrific, but it doesn't have anything to do with the legality in question, nor anything to do with me, since I was not involved in any of that history, nor to my knowledge ever been anti-Semitic in any way, nor have I any Christian Church connections, nor ever belonged to a church, temple, mosque, or synagogue of any kind. The world is blessed with a lot of translations of the Tanakh and Brit Chadashah, and a lot of scholarly work about all of it has been translated in almost all languages. One can get into a direct relationship with YHVH...I am surprised more people don't try it. One merely reads the scriptures, and then searches for explanations as questions arise. I have read and listened to some of the Jewish Anti-missionary glee of getting some Christian Believer to convert to Judaism, which I think odd since Judaism has not been seeking proselytes overtly since the Exodus. (-;! I'm not too sure The Israelites were all that in favor of getting proselytes then, but got stuck with a lot of hangers-on who looked at Moshe as a great way to get out of slavery. I found the Jewish Anti-missionary talking points offensive, as I find most evangelical Christian attempts at converting Jews offensive...neither of them are telling truth to anyone...only opinion. Both touch on truth, then twist it to their own ends. Both probably mean well. It still is offensive, so I do not spend much time looking at it, or listening to it. I mostly do not understand why Jews of the Rabbinical traditions cannot see a very real difference between much of the Christian Church, which is very pagan, and has few people who are actually attempting to please YHVH; and the Messianic Believers who merely see YHVH in Yeshua, and have extremely good reasons to do so because of the Scriptures, and still seek to fully follow outside of Mishnaic and Talmudic traditions, and wish no Christian traditions either. As for my acquaintance, I am not eager to persuade him of much more than the legal question I keep trying to raise, which he avoids. He cannot disagree with me on the need for solving a legal problem by avoiding looking at it. It is like saying there is no moon in the sky when it is risen, and lighting the dark countryside. Certainly he can disagree with me, and say he sees a solution already in place for the legal problem I have raised. I would agree to disagree, and leave it to G-d to sort out. He can point out to me that there is no legal problem because of such and such reason. I would probably think him an idiot, but agree to disagree, even though I think the legal problem is written all over the Tanakh. He will not even look to see if the legal problem exists. To me, that is a coward's way out. I do not know if it was the Ruach haKodesh who had me trip over him online, or the Adversary, because the effect has been the same...a raising in my knowledge level of areas of Judaism that I had not previously experienced, but value. Oddly, it has caused me to go even more fully into the Hebraic expression of our beliefs, and I very recently began taking Hebrew lessons. It is for me a desire to be able to see where the problems are between the translations from the Greek and Hebrew texts lie, and to be able to seek more deeply into the Brit Chadashah than the English translations will give me, since everyone has his own guidance from the Ruach haKodesh. I see a need for a Goel in the spiritual relationship between Israel and YHVH...a legal reason. I am not appealing to emotion, only reason, and still have hit a brick wall...as many Jews seem to be more attached to their legal structure in the Mishna and Talmud than they are in the itself or in all that the Tanakh expresses, or even in YHVH. I presume that there must be emotion involved that is not being expressed openly...a flat out gut reaction of rejection. And since it leaves those who react that way both unaware of the legal need under for a Goel (blind), it leaves them also unaware of the grace that solves the legal problem, and in my belief, leaves them hanging over a pit. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 5:37:19 GMT -8
I think that when one is talking to Jewish people there are many things to keep in mind. Their culture, beliefs, where they came from, what sect they come from and the many wrong things that were done to them through the centuries.
I have come across some Jewish people who hate Gentiles and Christians. Why because down through the centuries they were killed, raped, privileges taken from them and many more things. Some have much hatred to what had happened to them or their families in the Holocaust. Now I am not talking about all Jewish people, just some.
Also I have a two Jewish friends, one lives here in Canada and the other lives in Australia. I admire and respect them both. They both come from different backgrounds and beliefs.
Just recently we had just had a Jewish sect move here in the city last month. Lev Tahore sect. Maybe you have heard of them on the news.
I found out about this group when I read something in the city paper and started talking to my husband about this group.
Now there is the media's version of this group and of course the sect's version. The Jewish group that moved here believe they are being persecuted for their strict beliefs. Some call them the Ultra-Orthodox group or Haredic group. They are under police investigation and have some of the children in Children Aide's care for possible child abuse and child neglect. Purpose being? They home school their children. They were living in Quebec, Canada. The education policies are way different than they are here in Ontario. Only God knows why they are here, only He knows what this group is all about, etc.
Do you think this group stopped me from welcoming them to the city and saying hi to them? No. Why? Because I see them as human. They also sin just like we do. They have their own mindset and many others things, just like we do. I accept all people for who they are.
God says in His word, "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth ; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7
So I think that looking at the Jewish people in a different light and in God's eyes, the approach would be quite different than what we would try to do or say.
Yes, there some Jewish people who are anti-missionaries and are trying to win back those who come to Yeshua or go to a different faith. Some will go to extreme measures to get them back. Again with these one needs to have a godly mindset in approaching the anti-missionaries. Look at where they came from, etc.
This is just my thought on the issue at hand.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Dec 27, 2013 16:38:05 GMT -8
Questor, didn't you say your background was Jewish, but non-observant? Just checking; making sure I got it right ... not that I'd ever be wrong ...  moriahruth7- 1st, if I wanted to shorten your name, could (or should) I call you moriah, ruth, or just 7? Next, we were involved in the fight for homeschooling here, and I can tell you that most homeschooled kids by far are smarter and better adjusted than the public school kids. However governments and the sensationalist media always point to the abuses and abject failures when they want to discredit someone, like this religious group. So I wouldn't put too much stock in media reports and gov't. investigations. Also ask yourself, if these were Muslims would they be treated the same? Just sayin' ... Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 18:05:30 GMT -8
Hi Dan,
Just don't call me late for supper. You may call me Moriah or Ruth. I go by both.
Yes, I understand that media can really hype things up about a religious group, no matter who they are. And yes I also find that children who are home schooled are intelligent. Also I find there is more respect that comes from them and courtesy.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Questor on Dec 30, 2013 1:05:59 GMT -8
Questor, didn't you say your background was Jewish, but non-observant? Just checking; making sure I got it right ... not that I'd ever be wrong ... moriahruth7- 1st, if I wanted to shorten your name, could (or should) I call you moriah, ruth, or just 7? Next, we were involved in the fight for homeschooling here, and I can tell you that most homeschooled kids by far are smarter and better adjusted than the public school kids. However governments and the sensationalist media always point to the abuses and abject failures when they want to discredit someone, like this religious group. So I wouldn't put too much stock in media reports and gov't. investigations. Also ask yourself, if these were Muslims would they be treated the same? Just sayin' ... Dan C Oh, not wrong...just not fully informed! Actually, raised Pagan, became a Christian at 15, but was never much in any church. I was in books and lectures, and more books, and more lectures, and then I finally saw what I needed, and asked for the infilling of the Ruach, and received it. Then, pulled more and more into following Yeshua in obedience, and so, where He asked for Obedience...I seek to get better at it. I go from the two commandments of Yeshua, which holds all the and Prophets. I am not so concerned with what the Old Covenant was to the Israelites before Yeshua, but more to what all Believers in YHVH need to do, to walk in righteousness to the best of my ability. It means I read the ...I knew the before the Brit Chadashah, since I read the Scriptures in the order given the first few times, and after shucking out all that I could not do, being neither a Jew, nor in a temple observant Israel, began by attempting just the first 10 Commandments. Trying to do that cold when you have never been told what is right or wrong, but merely what one does or does not do as a matter of what my family did or did not do, because 'WE just don't do that sort of thing'. Very noblesse oblige...my great great grandfather was the son of a German Baron, and passed on odd notions of what was expected in the family. I mostly work with the Ruach haKodesh in grace, attempting still to keep the Ten Categories, both in spirit and in truth, and actually do okay for a few hours now and then. The rest of the time I am a selfish, rebellious toddler, wonder why when I want to do what Abba asks, I cannot, and then remember that stupid dead body attached to my live spirit, and just try to deal...like everyone else. And I thank YHVH a lot for Yeshua, without which I would be lost. |
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