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Post by jimmie on Dec 13, 2010 10:05:11 GMT -8
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
It is because David had to repent (tanakh) that I came to the conclusion. He came up short of the glory of God. Since we all have sinned we need a sinless Messiah, who God sent in the form of a man. The Messiah, Jesus Christ, died in my stead. Something that David (or is fleshly decedents) could not do.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Dec 13, 2010 13:42:42 GMT -8
I find it rather odd that you would quote Romans to prove your point, when it's that same exact book that disproves it. It clearly says that Yeshua HaMashiakh was a flesh and blood physical descendant of David...
(Romans 1:2-4 Complete Jewish Bible)
God promised this Good News in advance through his prophets in the Tanakh. It concerns his Son - he is descended from David physically; he was powerfully demonstrated to be Son of God spiritually, set apart by his having been resurrected from the dead; he is Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.
Perhaps verse 3 in different translations will convince you?
(Romans 1:3 ASV)
concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh
(Romans 1:3 RSV)
the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
(Romans 1:3 The Scriptures '98)
concerning His Son, who came of the seed of Dawid according to the flesh
I could keep going until I run out of translations. Every one of them has Sha'ul telling us that Yeshua is from the seed of David according to the flesh. It's plain as day, and unmistakable. If Yeshua was NOT from the seed of David, then he is disqualified as a candidate for Mashiakh.
Shalom
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Post by jimmie on Dec 14, 2010 10:20:11 GMT -8
Matt:1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Can you explain how Jesus was the physical son of Joseph and thus of the natural seed of David instead of the spiritual seed of David?
P.S. Please use only one translation when conversing with me. I find multiple translations very confusing.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Dec 14, 2010 13:52:49 GMT -8
Can you explain how Jesus was the physical son of Joseph and thus of the natural seed of David instead of the spiritual seed of David? Yes, I sure can explain that. Right after you explain to me why the Scriptures say in numerous places that Yeshua was a flesh & blood physical descendant of David, when you claim he wasn't? P.S. Please use only one translation when conversing with me. I find multiple translations very confusing. I do use a single translation only, which is the Complete Jewish Bible. I offered other translations for Romans 1:3 only to show you that the text in question wasn't a scribal error, or a translational discrepancy. Every translation out there says the exact same thing. Which I wanted to make perfectly clear. I do not pick and choose translations that agree with my own presuppositions, in order to create a proof text. Others may practice that, but I can assure you, I do not.  Shalom |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 14, 2010 15:03:06 GMT -8
Well, it is similar (not the same) to how I can be of the seed of Abraham. I am of the spiritual seed of Abraham not the physical seed. But with Jesus it is the other way around.
If the Complete Jewish Bible is your preference, then by all means use it. My “P.S.” was a statement of how I perceive things. To appeal to multiple translations, carries no weight with me. I was not implying that you had an ulterior motive in doing so.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Dec 14, 2010 17:26:42 GMT -8
Well, it is similar (not the same) to how I can be of the seed of Abraham. I am of the spiritual seed of Abraham not the physical seed. But with Jesus it is the other way around. I'm sorry, Bro, but I'm not following you how Yeshua is the same, but the other way around. Could you please expound upon that? Also, we were discussing how Yeshua is the flesh & blood physical descendant of David, not Avraham Avinu. The Apostolic Scriptures say that in numerous places, if you would like more evidence? Shalom |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 15, 2010 10:08:03 GMT -8
Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Doesn’t this verse say that Joseph was not responsible for fathering Jesus?
Luke 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Didn’t Mary just say that Joseph was Jesus’s father? Do we have a contradiction here, or does the word “adoption” mean anything? Joseph adopted Jesus making Jesus the physical, flesh and blood son of Joseph and thus of the seed of David.
Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Jesus doesn’t seem to be confused about who his Father is.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Dec 15, 2010 13:17:23 GMT -8
Do we have a contradiction here... Apparently so. But after reading the rules of this forum once again, and having promised Reuel that I would uphold them, I cannot continue this discussion any further, without breaking that promise. I'm not going to do that under any circumstances. So, I'm sorry I started something I cannot finish, Jimmie. Shalom |
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tonga
Full Member
Posts: 243
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Post by tonga on Dec 20, 2010 12:05:13 GMT -8
Gen. 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, Who is the third person that didn’t visit Lot? Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Who is the fourth person in the fire? It seems to me that God has appeared in human form of old. If so, then why not as Messiah? I'm not sure I should answer these, per forum rules. I'm not here to argue against your theology |
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Post by Chaviva7 on Dec 22, 2010 13:27:42 GMT -8
As believers in Yeshua, we should be concerned, as well as passionate for spreading the gospel of the Kingdom. And vehemently refute those who seek to corrupt it. The welfare of peoples eternal inheritance is at stake. How can we possibly take that lightly? If we all chose to simply do nothing, the gospel would have stopped being preached long ago. G-d forbid! I too in agreement with you Ben Yosef, and this is serious business regarding those who are rethinking about who Yeshua is through the beliefs of others. So it does matter what others are speaking about! There needs to be a "rightly dividing" of the truth! I don't mean the "truth" that everyone finds for themselves but that which is in our Bible and to search it out. But at same time be able to have that relationship with the Messiah as He is our Redeemer, and restorer of the breach! |
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Post by alon on Mar 20, 2013 12:29:55 GMT -8
... if Yeshua is born of a virgin then he is not from the tribe of Judah and thus cannot be Messiah. he also said that the lineage of Yosef (Joseph) is cursed (becuase of Jeconiah) and thus even if Yeshua was conceived in the normal fashion he would still not me eligible to be Messiah. ... The rabbi was half right. Part of the miracle of Yeshua's birth is that that both earthly parents were descended from King David. Joseph's lineage was given in Mathew, and Mary's in Luke. Joseph could not be part of the conception because his line was cursed. Forgiveness of Jehoiachin was not a issue. His line was cursed, and while God may forgive we still bear the consequences of our sins. ha shatan thought he had foiled God's plan with this detail. However, the miraculous nature of the virgin birth took care of that. So Yeshua was from the line of David: physically though His mother, formally through His adoptive father, and supernaturally trough the miraculous work of the Ruach Hakodesh. Dan C |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 20, 2013 23:08:23 GMT -8
Even so, one could argue for evidence of a legitimate line being passed through Yoseph through adoption. Dr. Michael Brown in his book, Answering Jewish Objections To Jesus, Volume 4 states, "the curse on Jehoiachin may only have referred to his own sons and, more importantly, the Hebrew Bible gives strong indications that he repented and the curse was reversed. This understanding of the text is actually confirmed by Rabbinic tradition.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 4, pp. 97-102)
Dr. Michael Brown's book series "Answering Jewish Objections To Jesus" is an excellent and needed read by those in the Messianic community.
Shalom b'Yeshua,
R' Reuel
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Post by Questor on Dec 17, 2013 20:01:09 GMT -8
Have you ever encountered an Anti-Missionary who attacks the Brit Chadasha, and Yeshua's Messiahship? I've found a guide by Dr. Michael Brown to help you respond to the deceptive tactics most commonly used by the Anti-Missionaries. I'm sure you'll find it most helpful. You can view it here: CLICK ME I've tried clicking, but it goes to a 404 message. I went to the website (Moderator edit, removed link due to site being something we do not want promoted on this forum) but don't know which PDF you are referencing. I'm feeling a bit black and blue from talking to a guy that has a lot of Jews-for-Judaism stuff in his head, and though I am trying to nudge the conversation over to just one single topic, like why Yeshua cannot be HaShem, he's slamming me with fifty learned responses, and I barely know what to say next. Perhaps not being Jewish myself makes it harder to connect with someone who will not allow Adonai to do what He wants on the planet He created, even if it was to put part of Himself into a human child to raise up a Goel for all those who would just lay hold of the idea. He's fixated on the idea that the moment you consider YHVH to be Yeshua, you are instantly not a Jew anymore. I know I am not putting it well, but this guy simply will not look at the possibility of Yeshua being what He is. I finally realized that he does not want a Goel...he doesn't give any value to a Redeemer. He wants to follow the Tanakh, and the Mishna, and do it all himself, in his own strength...as if he could. And yet he believes that YHVH will give him mercy for mercy's sake for not keeping the  perfectly, when YHVH is downright specific that He will not. And I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks they can keep the perfectly enough not to need some atonement. I'm probably going off topic, but how did Jews before Yeshua came deal with not being able to be covered by a sacrifice? And for that matter, how do they deal with it now? I figure I will give it a rest for a bit, and just pray for him, but my heart really hurts for this man. He's so very well versed in the Brit Chadashah, and all the reasons not to believe in Yeshua as Messiah too. This is not a man who can say he did not know about Yeshua, even when he meets Him face to face. I am learning to narrow the focus down as I learn to talk to him, but it is difficult to figure out how to raise even a hint of possibility that he could be wrong. Any ideas? |
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Post by Questor on Dec 17, 2013 21:02:08 GMT -8
Why would G-d send a messiah to the Jews in a way that makes it totally impossible for them to accept him as messiah? History also bears record of a great number of Jews accepting Yeshua HaMashiakh, in all generations. It would be even more if Christianity had not corrupted the true Gospel of the Kingdom. Shalom This is why I, although a gentile, consider myself Messianic rather than Christian...to the point that I call myself a Messianic Gentile, not a Christian. Not being brought up under any belief system or culture, I was able to see the problems within the Greco-Roman modifications to the Gospel...which still drive me nuts, though I am learning to be more patient with them after 43 years of belief, and study, and now 7 years of blogging. Although I have spent years arguing Doctrine on Christian Forums, I find that I still do not find myself at home without a certain Hebraic influence. I was never more grateful to YHVH than when David Stern came out with his manifesto, and the The Complete Jewish Bible...it all filled in so many gaping holes in my understanding. I hope all of my Brothers and Sisters in Yeshua will be patient for my ever increasing desire to have my faith neither Jewish nor Christian, but Messianic in the full Hebraic sense. |
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Post by Questor on Dec 17, 2013 21:06:43 GMT -8
Hi, I have an Israeli friend who has now taken it upon himself to talk me out of my faith in Yeshua. I actually enjoy the debates we have, although he has now roped in his rabbi and I have to work a little harder. Don't worry, I am not ready to give up my faith in Yeshua  One point that the rabbi did raise was that if Yeshua is born of a virgin then he is not from the tribe of Judah and thus cannot be Messiah. he also said that the lineage of Yosef (Joseph) is cursed (becuase of Jeconiah) and thus even if Yeshua was conceived in the normal fashion he would still not me eligible to be Messiah. Now I know that descendants of Jeconiah did reign, e.g. Zerubabel, so it seems that G-d must have reversed that decision, but I want to know what the response is to the issue of the virgin birth invalidating Yeshua's claim to messiahship would be. Any thoughts would be much appreciated, sorry if I'm asking the question in the wrong place, but I'm sure it's a favourite of the anti-missionaries. -Sean Even if Jeconiah hadn't repented, Yeshua was fully acknowledged by Joseph as his son, and even could inherit by adoption, while Miryam was also of the the line of David through Nathan, giving Yeshua the blood right to inherit...or at least so I have determined. |
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have great shalom. Nothing causes them to stumble." 
One point that the rabbi did raise was that if Yeshua is born of a virgin then he is not from the tribe of Judah and thus cannot be Messiah. he also said that the lineage of Yosef (Joseph) is cursed (becuase of Jeconiah) and thus even if Yeshua was conceived in the normal fashion he would still not me eligible to be Messiah.
