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Post by David Ben Yosef on Feb 8, 2010 3:43:32 GMT -8
I only did that for the benefit of those who may not have been aware of it. Any conversion done without an individual dropping their former beliefs (even clinging to them secretly) is done on false premises [and thereby invalid] and only creates further problems for everyone involved. I agree, those are indeed the modern stipulations for conversion to Judaism. However, the concept/term that a conversion ritual is "invalid" should be used loosely, because it depends upon which sect of Judaism is offering the opinion on said conversion. I've heard that term get thrown around a lot, and it appears to be a favorite of the Orthodox sect of Judaism it seems. The last thing a convert wants to hear, or have thrown in his face after bris milah is that it wasn't "valid." That's a real sore spot with me (no pun intended...LOL). I really enjoy Rabbeinu's Chasiddus. It's like water for my n'shoma.  I agree. The Baal Shem Tov as well. The message my Rav stresses is one of emunah, and I try to do my part to spread that as well - hence my sig. My Rabbi is basic with us lower level  students, and his main message is: transforming the will to recieve for yourself alone, into the will to recieve for the benefit of others (A favorite saying of Rabbi Yehuda Leow of Prague [the MaHaRal]). It's a message of chesed, and is all encompassing, like the emunah of Avraham Avinu. He teaches us Kabbalah as well, but just the basic concepts. However, I do a lot of studying on my own (which tends to irritate him...LOL). |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Feb 8, 2010 12:57:16 GMT -8
Thank you, davening appreciated as this is extremely painful.
I can't figure out how to PM you, but I guess the name is
no big secret....Miriam.
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Post by danstevens on Apr 30, 2013 14:30:28 GMT -8
sigh.... oh dear.. let me see brothers and sisters what do the scirptures say.
Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Gentiles are grafted into ISRAEL NOT JUDAISM
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Messiaht, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Messiah Yeshua you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, (the dividing wall was a Jewish tradtion against the commandments of God) 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Messiah Yeshua Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
As grafted in ISRAELITES we become partakers of the SAME PROMISES AND COVENANTS and become ONE NEW MAN.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the]circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Isaiah 56:1 Thus says the Lord,
“Preserve justice and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 “How blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”
I believe all peoples would include gentiles.
My point is after all that is this You are worried over the wrong thing. What matter is it if you are Jew, Gentile or Israelite? What is important is your relationship to God. Everything else is fruitless discussion over a whole lot of nothing.
1 Timothy 1:3-5 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
AND as been already pointed out the noahide laws are a myth. It is adding to scripture and thus breaking the command not to add to nor take away from God's Law. Deut 4:2
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Apr 30, 2013 14:40:21 GMT -8
Gentiles are grafted into ISRAEL NOT JUDAISM An interesting point I had not considered before. So if this is true, that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel and not the Jewish religion...should Messianics who hold by Jewish customs, rituals, synagogue services etc etc no longer do so? That such things are fruitless? And wouldn't the term Messianic Judaism be a misnomer? |
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Post by danstevens on Apr 30, 2013 14:53:05 GMT -8
Exactly my point.
No we shouldn't try to be something we are not.
I was in on the ground floor of the messianic movement the absolute truth is they adopted Jewish practices to draw Jews away from Judaism. Period
It is dishonest and not how we should treat our brothers.. Perhaps future brothers but remember all Israel will be saved and the Jews are a part of Israel.
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Post by alon on Dec 13, 2013 21:28:58 GMT -8
My wife and I have been arguing about this very thing all afternoon. She was raised Jewish and later accepted Christ, and Christianity, with a vengeance.
My father was a Southern Baptist minister, and believe me you just can't get more gentile than that. I have always had a problem with inconsistencies in biblical teaching and our all too often pagan practices. So when I found MJ, I was in- all the way!
My wife has a huge problem with me "playing Jew," even though I don't take on most of the trappings of Judaism. The people I worship with are the same types of simple farmers as I did when I was Baptist or now with the AoG (where my wife goes). She admits there is a wall of snobbery there, even though she is no longer Jewish by faith. In fact, many Jews considered her to be gentile all her life simply because her mother wasn't Jewish. She was raised in the Jewish faith, bat-mitzvah'd ... however there was a stigma there that could never be undone. But even after suffering all that, she still hates the idea of a bunch of believers taking on any form of Jewishness in our worship.
She admits it is snobbery, but the idea of goyim (she gets a little angry at me on this topic ...) even obeying is offensive to her. But to conduct worship like the Jews do is just unthinkable! Get real- it's an order of service, not some secret plan to re-Hellenize the Jews! We all want to do it right; respectfully and cognizant of the fact that we have a lot to learn. But if there are no Jews willing to teach us, where does that leave us?
As much as I love the Jews (even my wife, though sometimes ...) I would respectfully submit that it isn't up to them who is grafted onto the stalk of Israel. They don't even get a say in how I worship, other than if you are willing to instruct me I'm willing to listen and learn. I'd be more than happy to sit in the back and be quiet and just listen at regular Messianic Shabbat services.
I can understand the fear of once again being overrun by well meaning gentiles who will always outnumber the Jewish believers. But instigating this one rule, that gentiles sit quiet and learn until they are deemed ready to participate, would weed out the players while giving the sincere person a chance.
So lighten up, youse Jews! If it's biblically mandated, we're responsible to do it; and we don't need your blessings, just your help.
Rant over ... except for my wife- I get the feeling I havn't heard the last of this here ... 
Dan C
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2013 17:24:46 GMT -8
Hi Dan, I can so much relate to what you are going through and what your wife states. My husband does the same thing. He believes that any Gentile believer or Christian who follows the or becomes Messianic will become Jewish and will lose their faith as a Christian. Also he believes that when a Jewish person becomes a Christian, they are no longer a Jew. He takes this thought from these verses. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galations 3:28 "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Colossians 3:11 So his thinking is once one become one with Christ or a Christian they are no longer a Jew or Gentile for we are all one in Him. God doesn't see our Jewishness or Gentiles. I have a hard time with his thinking. |
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Post by alon on Dec 15, 2013 1:54:50 GMT -8
... My husband does the same thing. He believes that any Gentile believer or Christian who follows the or becomes Messianic will become Jewish and will lose their faith as a Christian. Also he believes that when a Jewish person becomes a Christian, they are no longer a Jew. He takes this thought from these verses. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galations 3:28 "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Colossians 3:11 So his thinking is once one become one with Christ or a Christian they are no longer a Jew or Gentile for we are all one in Him. God doesn't see our Jewishness or Gentiles. ...
The same error is made by many in interpreting Mat 23:8 "But you are not to let yourselves be called `Rabbi'; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other's brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth `Father.' because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called `leaders,' because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah!"It is absolutely foolish to say this means we shouldn't call our earthly fathers by their title. And Rabbi means teacher, so what should we do with all those who teach our classes? "Oy, you- yeah you, the one that tells us stuff!" And we obviously still have leaders (except in Washington ... but that's another thread  ). My point is, if something sounds wrong when taken too literally, then probably we are missing the meaning. All Yeshua was getting at here is that we are not to be too proud of our titles, nor exalt someone else too high because they have a title; and when the horn blows it is you who will be responsible for your own life and not the titled or entitled you chose to blindly follow!
There are still Jews by birth who believe in Yeshua haMoshiach. There are still gentiles by birth and by upbringing who accept Yeshua, accept that He was a Jew, accept that the Bible was written by Jews (albeit under inspiration) and that we seriously need to adjust our thinking to truly understand this book. There are even gentiles who don't believe anything except that "Jesus" is the Christ, and who follow Him to the best of their understanding. Jews, gentiles and spiritual "Greeks" (so to speak), all in right standing in the family of God. And if God proclaims you adopted into His family, no man regardless of title or position can say different.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Dec 15, 2013 3:36:47 GMT -8
Dan, I've been considering your post, as it is well written and informative. However, I think I have to disagree with you on several points. sigh.... oh dear.. let me see brothers and sisters what do the scirptures say. ... (instead of my using space to repost, please go to re-read the scriptures) Gentiles are grafted into ISRAEL NOT JUDAISM First off, I don't think the scriptures you quoted support your premise. Second, we are grafted into Israel, and I believe this includes a form of Judaism- just not Rabbinical Judaism. Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! Obviously we gentile believers are the wild branches being grafted onto a carefully cultivated tree. Part of that "cultivation" is their having the fertilizer of and the water of proper worship, both liberally applied. Rom 9:5-8 "the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be ADONAI for ever! Amen. But the present condition of Isra'el does not mean that the Word of God has failed. For not everyone from Isra'el is truly part of Isra'el; indeed, not all the descendants are seed of Avraham; rather, "What is to be called your 'seed' will be in Yitz'chak." In other words, it is not the physical children who are children of God, but the children the promise refers to who are considered seed."If you read that passage in context, it is saying that not all the descendants of Avraham were of Yisra'el, rather those called by God. Your quotes backed this up as well, however they said nothing about gentiles coming into the faith worshiping differently, either before or after Yeshua. This thought is also stated in Rom 2:28-29 "For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical. On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God."So merely being genetically Jewish doesn't make you a true Jew, and a branch that doesn't produce fruit gets cleared out for one that does, even if it is some wild-eyed gentile. And just so you know, I do not believe this is saying not to get circumcised; just make sure your heart is circ'd first or it's a waste of skin anyhow! I can agree with that statement, as far as it goes. However I disagree that is all there is to it. We are made heirs to the promises, and we are also made responsible for our actions and our worship and all our new familial obligations, just like our new brothers and sisters. If you are a partaker in the same covenants, then you get ALL that goes with that covenant. Covenants can never be changed, only fulfilled.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 3:29-30 (better translation) and on to 31 "Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. Does it follow that we abolish by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm .
So he is saying heart condition is more important than skin condition. But he did not say to abolish , or the instructions therein.Yes, it always has.
Yes. You can't spend a lot of time arguing against a particular point of view, then say it is just fruitless discussion and cut off conversation. If it was important enough for you to argue- and it was, as it made us think- then it is important enough for me to reply (obviously ... ).
The warning here to not get bogged down in these disputes, and to remember what is important is well taken. However I do not believe this is meant to say it isn't important to study and debate these issues, so long as done respectfully and in such a way as not to disrupt order. Otherwise, we need to fire off a note to the forum owners and tell them they are wasting time and in violation of scripture! 
Far from myth, they are recorded in Talmud. No problem as long as we keep in mind that this is commentary, not scripture, and use a lot of discernment when reading it. I find nothing in the Noahide laws themselves that contradicts scripture, and in fact they are supported in scripture in various places. So as a starting point for those of us new in the Messianic faith they can be a good tool.
As earlier pointed out, there are those who would try to limit us to these in order to stifle our worship or keep what they believe to be their culture to themselves. While understandable I suppose, this is where that "call no man Rabbi" thing comes into play. We are responsible to move forward in both our faith and worship. I am fortunate to have found a Rabbi who I trust, and I pester him unmercifully with questions both before and after classes. But I also go and check what I am told. He loves it, and expects no less of me.
At the same time, I have a REAL problem with those who tell me that God just wanted the Jews to worship like this. And you Christians, well you just worship however your sinful little ol' heart tells you to. Bring in your Asher Poles on "X"mas, have your small children participate in fertility rites at the feast of Ishtar, put Cupids (which are demons, btw) all over your churches and call it "Lu-u-u-u-u-uv" on the day you choose to worship sex with your mate, and top it all off by rotting everyone's teeth on All Hallows E'en. Yeah, I'm down with all that. Or maybe I should just go back to being a Baptist. It doesn't matter what they do, they won't enjoy it any way. So, if I don't enjoy it is it OK to do it?
I obviously don't think you mean it like that. But left to our own devices this is historically where we tend to end up. So if it's all the same, I think I'll just keep going over to our little yeshiva. They may be a bit weird, but frankly, they ain't nuthin' like them getile folk I was raised with!
Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Dec 17, 2013 23:39:50 GMT -8
Before you think about that article, think your self about the definition of racism: racism noun 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race from dictionary.net If antisemitism is deeply condemned and considered rascist, I think the opposite is exactly the same. I'm not asserting at all someone is in here so please don't missunderstand, but I do think it is a concept to always keep in mind. I do understand who are the choosen people by the only manifested real God YHWH Elohim. As Dr Michael Brown( a Jew) once stated in a debate with a known orthodox Jew: " Yeshua is the most amazing Jew I have ever met, he had introduced more people in man kind to the only true God that any other Jew among history" Maybe because it was just thousands of years ago people manytimes forget the extraordinary sacrifice Yeshua placed for me in Jerusalem. His blod, His DNA is what places me equaly infront of HaShem. Shalmon Anti-Semitism should not be considered as similar to racism. Semites are derived of many races because many people were fully adopted into Judaism over the last 5500 years; taken as slaves, and bearing children to their captors, while many other's married in. There are certain strong family traits that have been passed down genetically through the years, due to a lot of intermarriage between a relatively small family group over many generations. The anti-semitism one sees is a hatred of a specific family group, fostered by the wiles of the Adversary. Judaism is part religion, part cultural tradition, and part tribal affiliation. All of these things are hated by some, not because of physical differences, but because of inheritance. Judaism's very seperate-ness is offensive to some because not all Jews in the history of the world have been meek and mild tempered enough to accept extinction, while the culture, and traditions are very different from the Greco-Roman Christianity that spread across the world after 100AD. Keeping Shabbat of itself was offensive in the first generations following the Exodus, then keeping it differently from the Christian groups just made the differences between the two groups...Jews and Christians, all the more obvious. A lot of it is just plain jealousy, that the physical descendants from Adam through Abraham to the 13 tribes is trackable back to the beginning, and were chosen by YHVH to bear the Oracles of G-d for all mankind. It is wise, however, to have the laws on the books about treating Jews no differently from any other race, because it is a lot easier to describe than what it actually is...a feeling of inadequacy. |
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Post by Questor on Dec 18, 2013 0:55:00 GMT -8
Then you misunderstood me. I said I would encourage it, but.... I know that it would be impossible for you guys because you would have to give up your beliefs in jesus. So it's a non-starter. Basically it comes to down to this. IF a person wants to convert, they will have to give up their former beliefs. If they cannot, then there is no conversion. That's all. I'm not trying to get you guys to leave your beliefs; I'm only giving the Orthodox position. Thank you for clarifying your statement. I suppose I didn't expect that you were stating the obvious. That Gentiles must renounce faith in Yeshua for conversion to Orthodox Judaism. Unfortunately, that's the only issue preventing me from conversion. I suspect I'm not alone in that capacity.
It is the same with never having been a member of the Christian Church traditions...I don't belong there either. In their viewpoint I am too Jewish in thought to be entirely comfortable around, although at least they are welcoming to me as a Believer, as would a Messianic Synagogue be if there was one nearby.
Not being raised in the Judaic culture and traditions, and most of all, without Hebrew as my first language, I remain unattached and oddly ignorant, always craving more and more knowledge, and more and more connection with a background alien to me. And so, I stand in the middle of the two cultures, following Yeshua in a somewhat isolated position. I find companions of faith mostly on the forums, where minds can meet, while where and how you pray and worship does not matter as much as the fact that you do, with a rare meeting of minds now and again off the net with a human person I can shake hands with.
As for walking in Yeshua, well, the Ruach haKodesh has me well in hand, like a patient nanny with a rambunctious three year old always running off after butterflies when I am wanted elsewhere.
In the Olam Ha-ba, however, I will be at home...with all Believers in Yeshua.
I look forward to it, but I also enjoy the now...if just a little wistfully wanting more than I can have. |
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Post by alon on Dec 18, 2013 15:05:53 GMT -8
... racism, noun 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race from dictionary.net ... Anti-Semitism should not be considered as similar to racism. Semites are derived of many races ... The anti-semitism one sees is a hatred of a specific family group, fostered by the wiles of the Adversary. Judaism is part religion, part cultural tradition, and part tribal affiliation. All of these things are hated by some, not because of physical differences, but because of inheritance. Judaism's very seperate-ness is offensive to some ... Keeping Shabbat of itself was offensive ... A lot of it is just plain jealousy, ... It is wise, however, to have the laws on the books about treating Jews no differently from any other race, because it is a lot easier to describe than what it actually is...a feeling of inadequacy.
Often it is just plain ignorance speaking, as when someone uses a term like "to Jew you down." One friend asked my wife, who she knew was raised Jewish, "But, aren't we SUPPOSED to hate the Jews?"
All too often it is latent anti-Semitism in our mainstream churches, who stopped looking for errors after Martin Luther (himself a virulent anti-Semite) wrote his famous thesis, which became the Protestant mishna. It seems like everything from that time on is simply their gemara; commentary and mitzvoth imposed by religious leaders to control their flocks. Part of that control is to label people like me (ironically about as gentile as you can get) as "Judaizers" and thereby shut down any debate.
There are also those who outright hate the Jews, and us Messianics too. We'd be called "blood-traitors" or some other marginalizing term. The enemy hates the truth more than anything else, because he fears it more. I suspect that a Jew who accepts Yeshua and remains Messianic rather than falling into mainstream Christianity will be selected for special hatred and prejudice.
We need to be in prayer for each other. I always try to remember to pray for Christians, Messianics and Jews who are in harms way for His names sake- and there are many even today who risk their lives by not renouncing Yeshua. Perhaps I should add a prayer for all those (like you and me) who are searching for understanding; especially for those with few resources other than the net.
May God bless you in your search,
Dan C
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Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Jan 22, 2014 3:28:23 GMT -8
Gentiles are grafted into ISRAEL NOT JUDAISM An interesting point I had not considered before. So if this is true, that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel and not the Jewish religion... |
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Torah Lishmah
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Study of Torah for its own sake
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Post by Torah Lishmah on Jan 22, 2014 3:40:50 GMT -8
All too often it is latent anti-Semitism in our mainstream churches, who stopped looking for errors after Martin Luther (himself a virulent anti-Semite) wrote his famous thesis, which became the Protestant mishna.  How can you not love this Alon guy?
Is it just me, or is this new posting format horrible? You can control almost nothing while constructing a post! |
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Post by alon on Jan 22, 2014 5:34:07 GMT -8
... How can you not love this Alon guy?
The analogy isn't air-tight; there've been several groups/denominations which have questioned more and torn themselves more away from early RC dogma. However, by and large what has flourished in mainstream belief is denominations which stopped looking for problems, kept their cherished traditions but put their own twist on what was started by Luther. Basically, just "commentary on the commentary." And they do tend to put their commentary at least on par with scripture too often. Turns out Ecc 1:9 was right, "there is no new thing under the sun." The thing they hated is what they have become! Guess we're all human in the end ... 
Dan C |
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students, and his main message is: transforming the will to recieve for yourself alone, into the will to recieve for the benefit of others (A favorite saying of Rabbi Yehuda Leow of Prague [the MaHaRal]). It's a message of chesed, and is all encompassing, like the emunah of Avraham Avinu. He teaches us Kabbalah as well, but just the basic concepts. However, I do a lot of studying on my own (which tends to irritate him...LOL).
How can you not love this Alon guy?
