What's wrong with being a gentile?

[tonga]

I have to ask myself that question when I see articles like this.

What is wrong with being a gentile? Do they think if they are not
a gentile, they are a more "authentic" member of the covenant?
Closer to G-d and more acceptable by Him? No longer a "pagan"?

Be definition one is a Jew or a gentile, there is no in between.
What do people who are not Jews but no longer consider themselves
gentile think they are?

What do you think about articles like this?

Messianic gentiles Are biblically and prophetically part of Israel. The term Gentile is used here to refer to those not of Jewish descendancy, because that is what non-Jews are called in popular speech. In actuality, Messianic Believers who are not Jewish, but are part of Israel by faith, cannot also be Gentile, for one cannot historically be Gentile and a part of Israel
at the same time. In scripture, the Gentiles were pagans or heathens. Messianic Believers, in our view, should no longer think of themselves as Gentiles.

messianic.com/messianic-statement-of-faith/62-the-biblical-place-of-messianic-gentile-believers.html

[lawrenceofisrael]

According to the letter to the romans those who believe from the nations although ethnically remaining greek, russian, african or whatever they spiritually become a part of israel meaning that they believe in the whole scripture, try to keep the laws and are considered holy in the eyes of the Almighty.

[tonga]

Dec 24, 2009 10:02:03 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

According to the letter to the romans those who believe from the nations although ethnically remaining greek, russian, african or whatever they spiritually become a part of israel meaning that they believe in the whole scripture, try to keep the laws and are considered holy in the eyes of the Almighty.

but that is very different than proclaiming that one is no longer
a gentile. Following scripture and trying to keep laws does not
equate to changing one's status from gentile to something else.

[Mark]

Most of what we have found in the leadership of Messianic congregations or organizations has come out of Christian denominations and teachings- that is starting to become less the case; but it is certainly dominant. A lot of energy and passion has been expended in our early transformation at "sticking it to the Church": demonstrating the error of where we have come from, defending the legitimacy of our position and debating against long-assumed sacred cows of theology… and winning. We like winning. We like the walking into a room of lazy theologians who think they know everything and spend a couple of hours mowing down their presuppositions.

Then we find ourselves in what we sort of think of as "like-minded" believers; but find ourselves uncomfortable some people know more than we do or that some people have a different perspective on things than we have. We start looking for that edge, that sense of superiority that we had among the seminarians.

Some have found that in their ethnicity and have built a caste system of government among Messianic believers in that Hebrew ethnicity trumps theological understanding. In fact, you can not hold a position of leadership in the MJAA (Messianic Jews of Association of America) unless you are ethnically Jewish. When you fill out the membership card you have two options to check: "ethnic Jew" or "honored guest". This is unfortunate, as it flies completely against the teachings of and the following writings of the apostle Paul.

Lev 19:34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The argument that Hebraic ethnicity is necessary is understandable, though unbiblical. The response to my inquiries on MJAAs position, their response was "look what happened the last time we let Gentiles in." The result was Catholicism and antinomian, Greek Christianity.

When the biblical argument didn’t waver the leadership of MJAA (and like types) then the response of many became "but we are Israel, too". Thus, I believe, was the rationale for the Two-house and Eprhaimite positions, declaring that gentiles, when they become followers of are engrafted specifically into the House of Ephraim, or that only ethnic Hebrews will truly possess a love for (thus if you love then you must have some Jewish ethnicity).

I believe that these positions fly completely in contradiction to Adonai’s blessing to Abraham- that through him will come the blessing upon all nations. They ignore the prophecy of Isaiah, that "my house shall be a house of prayer for all peoples." When we look at the energy and passion in the arguments of "who is Israel" it appears over and over to be the same tired argument of who gets to be in charge.

Here’s where I stand. I am a gentile. My great gradmother was a Navajo princess and her brother spent prison time with Machine-gun Kelley. There’s my pedigree. They were entrepreneurs in the corn industry, in the Southern Ozark hills of Arkansas, during the days of prohibition.

The covenant promises of God are specifically and uniquely given to the people and nation of Israel: both the "old" Covenant and the New (Jeremiah 31:31). Adonai is duty bound by His own word to keep covenant with Israel and to bring them a Redeemer and establish His kingdom with them here on earth.

I am a gentile. Adonai has promised me nothing. Yet, by His grace and in His profound compassion, He has always provided a way for the likes of me, saying, "come." The gentile has always been invited to participate fully in the commonwealth of Israel. The gentile is forbidden nothing, save the priesthood and the throne (which even with these they have been allowed to participate, as with Keturah, the wife of Moses and Ruth the Moabitess who would be David’s great grandmother).

And is for all of us, regardless of our lineage. Adonai is the Lord God of Israel but He is also the Judge of all the earth. He is no respecter of persons; He has simply demonstrated His perfect will and perfect way for us through His covenant and covenant people.

PS: I've invited Two-house and Ephraimite (and other) perspectives to post what they believe and why in the appropriate areas of this board but none have taken me up on it- I understand why and I have not extended the invitation for the purpose of dissuading or contradicting the positions that I don't agree with. I would appreciate anyone who holds these convictions and is comfortable articulating them to share in the area on different types of Messianic Judaism. I don't want to speak on behalf of those from a perspective that is antagonistic and cannot possibly do credit or justice.

[azgdt5120]

Before you think about that article, think your self about the definition of racism:

racism

noun

1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
from dictionary.net

If antisemitism is deeply condemned and considered rascist, I think the opposite is exactly the same.
I'm not asserting at all someone is in here so please don't missunderstand, but I do think it is a concept to always keep in mind.
I do understand who are the choosen people by the only manifested real God YHWH Elohim.
As Dr Michael Brown( a Jew) once stated in a debate with a known orthodox Jew: " Yeshua is the most amazing Jew I have ever met, he had introduced more people in man kind to the only true God that any other Jew among history"
Maybe because it was just thousands of years ago people manytimes forget the extraordinary sacrifice Yeshua placed for me in Jerusalem. His blod, His DNA is what places me equaly infront of HaShem.
Shalmon

[David Ben Yosef]

Dec 26, 2009 8:33:59 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

The almighty created us and there is no profit or benefit if you are born as a jew.

Sha'ul disagrees:

(Romans 3:1-2 OJBC)
What then is the advantage of the Yehudi? Or what is the value of the bris milah? Much in every way! For, koidem kol (in the first place), they are entrusted with the Divrei Hashem (the oracles, the words of G-d).

Dec 24, 2009 10:52:02 GMT -8 zionlion said:

To be honest, if I had a choice, I'd choose to be Jewish.

You do have a choice. Conversion.

[Mark]

Hi David,

Could you respondto this passage?

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Romans 10:11-12)

[tonga]

You do have a choice. Conversion.

Actually, this is not a choice either unless one chooses
to give up one's belief in Jesus.

I could "convert" to rabbinic Judaism but I can't become Jewish.
See what I'm saying?

Conversion to Judaism does make one "jewish".

[zionlion]

So, if a rabbi tells me I'm Jewish, that makes me Jewish?
If I decide to convert, will the rabbi ask me if I believe in Yeshua?
If I lie to him and tell him I don't, but later admit to him that I do, will I still be Jewish? As you've said before that Jews who believe in Yeshua remain Jews.

When I finish the conversion process, do I cease to be gentile?
Do my genetics also convert, as Jews are Jews by birth - not by belief?

Sorry, but I'm slightly confused.

[David Ben Yosef]

Jan 17, 2010 6:21:35 GMT -8 Mark said:

Hi David,

Could you respondto this passage?

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Romans 10:11-12)

Hi Mark,

Sure I can respond to those verses. However, you didn't leave any commentary as to why you believe those verses are relevant to the topic. So I can only assume you offered them to somehow annul, or contradict Sha'uls clear statement that the Jew has an advantage over the Gentile (Rom 3:1-2)? If my assumption is correct, I see no contradiction at all. If my assumption is incorrect, then please forgive me while you clarify your intention.

First, I believe we should turn to Yeshayahu 28:14-19 to get the proper context in which those verses are given, seeing as how Sha'ul is quoting it, and offering midrash. Perhaps your interpretation differs from mine.

Secondly, we should take a close look at exactly who Sha'ul is contrasting in Romans 10:12. He is most certainly not contrasting Jews with Gentiles. He uses the Greek word [Hellen] rather than [ethnos] which in the given context would mean Greek speaking Jews/Hebrews. Or rather, the Hellenized Jews/Hebrews. If he was indeed contrasting Jews with Gentiles he would have chosen the word [ethnos] to do so. Sha'ul does use the word [ethnos] just prior to this verse (Rom 9:30) and also afterward (Rom 11:11). This should make it clear that he is not contrasting Jews with Gentiles at all. I believe we should also take into consideration the consensus of the Temple authorities concerning the Hellenists (which is why Sha'ul quoted the Isaiah passage). In that time period they were not even considered to be Jewish, but rather, shared the same status as a Gentile. Religious Jews were to have no contact with the Samaritans, or the Hellenists (Per the edict of the 18 measures of Shammai). To do so would make one ritually unclean. There's plenty of historical documentation on that subject. The NT itself is replete with that concept as well.

In conclusion, what Sha'ul is saying in the verses you quoted, is that HaShem is rich in mercy on the Yehudi, as well as the Hellenists. This has nothing to do with a Jewish born person having, or not having, an advantage over a Gentile born person. The Scriptures are clear, and consistent, that the Jew does indeed have an advantage over the Gentile. This passage in Romans comes to mind, and does not contradict Sha'uls statement in Rom 3:1-2 at all, but rather, supports it:

(Romans 9:4-5)
The people of Isra'el! They were made God's children, the Sh'khinah has been with them, the covenants are theirs, likewise the giving of the , the Temple service and the promises; the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be HaShem for ever! Amen.

I don't believe it can be any clearer that one who was born into the Jewish community at the time of this writing, would have a much greater advantage being exposed to the Hebrew Scriptures (which is able to make us wise unto salvation- 2Tim 3:15) as well as the service of HaShem, than the Gentile who is born into a pagan culture, as well as pagan religion. At least, that's the way I see it.

And for the record, just so you don't misunderstand my intentions here at the forum, I do not promote prejudice in any shape or form. However, I do believe we should allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves, without bias, or presuppositions.

[David Ben Yosef]

Jan 17, 2010 12:46:26 GMT -8 tonga said:

Conversion to Judaism does make one "jewish".

That is correct. It's the very reason for the conversion process.

[Mark]

Thanks, David.

I apologize if my brevity came across as defensive or hostile. That's not at all the case. Often you'll find that when I throw out a verse without explaining why, it is usually to stimulate discussion, not to challenge the position of the previous writer(s). I appreciate and agree with your position. I'm just aware that the one I posted (and a few similar passages) will come to peoples' minds. I've enjoyed reading your response. It's not nearly as often as I would like to sit back and listen/read how the Word has unfolded before others. I'm certainly grateful you've decided to stop in and I hope to enjoy more of your perspective here on the forum.

[David Ben Yosef]

Jan 17, 2010 18:34:50 GMT -8 Mark said:

Thanks, David.

I apologize if my brevity came across as defensive or hostile. That's not at all the case. Often you'll find that when I throw out a verse without explaining why, it is usually to stimulate discussion, not to challenge the position of the previous writer(s).

Oh okay, that explains a lot. Unfortunately, we cannot hear each others tone of voice, or emphasis when reading the written words on a forum such as this. Often times that can indeed lead to a misunderstanding.

Jan 17, 2010 18:34:50 GMT -8 Mark said:

I appreciate and agree with your position. I'm just aware that the one I posted (and a few similar passages) will come to peoples' minds.

Oh yes, I have no doubt of that. Mistranslations, and misinterpretations run rampant when discussing the Apostolic Scriptures. I'm sure your well aware of that.

Jan 17, 2010 18:34:50 GMT -8 Mark said:

I've enjoyed reading your response. It's not nearly as often as I would like to sit back and listen/read how the Word has unfolded before others. I'm certainly grateful you've decided to stop in and I hope to enjoy more of your perspective here on the forum.

Well thank you, I enjoy your posts as well. I'm considering throwing my 2 cents in on the thread about Hebrews chapter 8. There seems to be much confusion concerning that particular book, and chapter. With much help from Rebbe over the years, I believe I can assist in unraveling that tangled up mess.

[tonga]

Jan 17, 2010 14:38:57 GMT -8 zionlion said:

So, if a rabbi tells me I'm Jewish, that makes me Jewish?

it's not quite that simple, but accepting the covenant, joining the Jewish people per a halachic conversion, does make one jewish.
A rabbi telling you "poof, you are now a Jew" does not

If I decide to convert, will the rabbi ask me if I believe in Yeshua?

Yes, they will. More likely they will ask if you if you believe that the moshiach has come, as well as many other questions to try to weed out insincere converts. Unfortunately, of late there have been Christians going through deceptive conversions and rabbis have in some cases not found them out ahead of time. Of course
these are not valid conversions, but it causes problems for the converts who are sincere...and for the Jewish communities that these people try to integrate into.

If I lie to him and tell him I don't, but later admit to him that I do, will I still be Jewish? As you've said before that Jews who believe in Yeshua remain Jews.

If you lie, then you will not have a valid conversion because one must accept the tenets of Judaism and give up all previous held
religous beliefs in order to convert. If one lies, one may have a piece of paper proclaiming one to be a Jew, but in reality it is
not a valid conversion.
If one converts will all sincerity, gives up ones prior beliefs, and lives an observant life...but somehow at a later time returns to their former beliefs, they yes they are still a Jew who has now
gone off the derech. Once one has a valid conversion, it cannot
be undone. Both of these are factors as to why in general rabbis
tend to be very selective about converting people.

When I finish the conversion process, do I cease to be gentile?
Do my genetics also convert, as Jews are Jews by birth - not by belief?

One receives a Jewish soul at the time of conversion, so yes one
does cease to be a gentile. Being Jewish is not all about genetics.

And yes, this is according to oral law, so you will not agree with it,
which but it is important to state to Jewish position.

[zionlion]

Thanks for the explanation, tonga.
Yeah, I figured oral law was in there somewhere.

But genetics aren't insignificant, right?

Could you explain a "Jewish soul"?
Are there other pre-conditions which would preclude a conversion or is belief in Yeshua singularly offensive?

Too bad there's not another way, but it looks like I'm goy for the duration.

Thanks.