|
|
Post by Dogface Of Judah on Jan 18, 2010 19:53:49 GMT -8
Yo Zion, maybe you should ask Ruth the Moabitess if she would like to be a Jew by blood instead of by adoption. It matters not one iota. Even back in the old days when you had to become a Proselyte, you still have no Jewish blood in you. We are adopted either way you old fart  . What's next, when you become a Jew then you will want to be a cherub?   Now snap out of it and be happy with what you are.  |
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 18, 2010 20:26:28 GMT -8
Even back in the old days when you had to become a Proselyte, you still have no Jewish blood in you. As Tonga has already correctly pointed out, DNA has nothing to do with a Gentile becoming a Jew. The conversion process today, as well as "back in the day" involved becoming a proselyte of Judaism, and can take up to three years (depending upon the sect). We are adopted either way you old fart. The adoption belongs to the Jews (Rom 9:4) and doesn't occur until the resurrection of the dead (Rom 8:23) which is the redemption of the body. I'm not quite sure how you are applying that in this case, but you have my interest if you care to explain? I agree that we should be happy with who we are, but I don't believe we should discourage anyone from becoming Jewish if they believe they are being led by HaShem to do so. I'm not here to argue with anyone though, just merely voicing my opinion on the matter. |
|
|
|
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 21, 2010 21:12:45 GMT -8
Nothing wrong with being a righteous gentile, but that would involve following the 7 Noahide Laws. I would encourage conversion, however, that too would involve dropping all former beliefs in jesus.
|
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 21, 2010 22:00:37 GMT -8
Nothing wrong with being a righteous gentile, but that would involve following the 7 Noahide Laws. The only problem I have with that, is there is zero record of any "Noachide" Laws for a means of righteousness for Gentiles before the 2nd century. It simply didn't exist. There isn't a single pre-Talmudic reference to it in Judaic literature. It's a later doctrinal formula. As much as I appreciate your opinon, it seeks to diminish a full reward for the Gentile in Olam HaBa, through observance of all required mitsvos. Of course, if you seek to justify your position through early Rabbinic texts, I'm all ears Brother. |
|
|
|
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 23, 2010 18:46:34 GMT -8
Nothing wrong with being a righteous gentile, but that would involve following the 7 Noahide Laws. The only problem I have with that, is there is zero record of any "Noachide" Laws for a means of righteousness for Gentiles before the 2nd century. It simply didn't exist. There isn't a single pre-Talmudic reference to it in Judaic literature. It's a later doctrinal formula. As much as I appreciate your opinon, it seeks to diminish a full reward for the Gentile in Olam HaBa, through observance of all required mitsvos. Of course, if you seek to justify your position through early Rabbinic texts, I'm all ears Brother. Hey, they have to start somewhere. Actually, what is today called the "Noahide Laws" are what the Talmud specifies as the minimum requirements for a Ger Toshav. Perhaps you are more familiar with that term? Personally, I think all non-Jews should be proselytized again, as you no doubt know that Judaism was once a very pro-active missionary faith. I think full-observance is the ideal for everyone, but they have to start somewhere. Once a person has met the initial requirements, they then can pursue a full conversion. |
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 23, 2010 21:13:49 GMT -8
Hey, they have to start somewhere. Actually, what is today called the "Noahide Laws" are what the Talmud specifies as the minimum requirements for a Ger Toshav. Perhaps you are more familiar with that term? Personally, I think all non-Jews should be proselytized again, as you no doubt know that Judaism was once a very pro-active missionary faith. I think full-observance is the ideal for everyone, but they have to start somewhere. Once a person has met the initial requirements, they then can pursue a full conversion. I am familiar with both terms. However, I oppose the Noachide teaching (and it's modern movement), for the very reason I stated above. Those who endorse this teaching generally prohibit Gentiles from full  observance. Notice how the observance of Shabbat is absent from those laws? Shabbat was set apart as a day of rest, and blessing for all of mankind from the Bereshith, not Sinai. Full observance is not only the ideal for all of mankind, but it's commanded by HaShem. I oppose any doctrine that limits observance. Period. The "Noachide Laws" formula is nowhere to be found in Sha'uls writings, who was the emissary to the Gentiles. Some have alluded to it in Acts 15, but a close examination of that text shows the ruling was geared toward the Gentiles relationship with the pagan temples. The Gentiles were required to leave their former relationship with the pagan temples behind in order to attend synagogue with righteous Jews. It's most interesting to study the history of the Noachide Laws doctrine from it's inception. It was formulated much later than what most people think, and have been told. And, for much different reasons as well. I believe the following paper addresses most of my concerns with the teaching: LINKI've also just started a thread on this subject, with additional information on the history of the Noachide Laws. You can read it HERE. |
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 28, 2010 19:16:09 GMT -8
I would encourage conversion, however, that too would involve dropping all former beliefs in jesus. After having read through the posts in thread once again, I came across this statement, and apparently missed it previously. I find this statement most disturbing, as well as completely inappropriate for a Messianic theology forum. Why would you encourage a Messianic believer to "drop all former beliefs in Yeshua?" I believe that statement deserves an explanation/clarification, given the fact that the very foundation on which this forum rests, is belief in Yeshua as the promised Mashiakh of Israel. Shalom |
|
|
|
Post by Inspired Faith on Feb 3, 2010 19:34:16 GMT -8
The Father's definition of a gentile is clear:
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
There are two groups on the earth, Israel and Gentiles. You can choose to be the seed of Abraham (Gal3: 27-29) and inheritors of the Promise.
No need to convert to a religion just enter His Kingdom
Blessings
|
|
tonga
Full Member
Posts: 243
|
Post by tonga on Feb 4, 2010 11:24:41 GMT -8
I would encourage conversion, however, that too would involve dropping all former beliefs in jesus. After having read through the posts in thread once again, I came across this statement, and apparently missed it previously. I find this statement most disturbing, as well as completely inappropriate for a Messianic theology forum. I agree. A strange statement for a Messianic forum. Of course if one converts to Judaism one must give up all former beliefs, including accepting Jesus as messiah. But why would some one here actively encourage that? It makes not sense, and as you said requires further clarification. |
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 4, 2010 13:16:25 GMT -8
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Encouraging that someone reject faith in Yeshua (Jesus) The Messiah here on the forums is absolutely inappropriate and will result in immediate suspension from the forum. If that is what was meant it would result in being banned from the forum. Therefore, further clarification is needed. Because the original forum rules have recently been restored, a second chance will be given if this is what was being communicated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see a problem with converting to Messianic Judaism, albeit not for salvation. Also, it is not something that is necessary, but something I would encourage if someone truly wants to completely take hold of the and wants to draw that much closer to the people of Yisrael out of a love for them. Just as one can remain Jewish while believing that Yeshua is The Messiah, so too can someone convert to Judaism (Messianic Judaism) and still be a believer in Messiah. It is a false understanding that states that one cannot be Jewish and hold belief in Yeshua The Messiah. Keep in mind that all the original disciples of Yeshua were Jewish (or in some cases converts to Judaism). There are others in Judaism that believe that Rabbi Schneerson was the Messiah, and many in Judaism believe this to be false, but does that make them any less of a Jew? Of course not. Yeshua taught Judaism done right, therefore if his disciples truly are following after him and how he lived his life...they will be practicing a form of Judaism. It will be the Judaism of the Lion of Judah. Yeshua didn't have two separate flocks that he taught differently. He didn't dress up like a Jew and then go teach the Jewish people Jewish things, and then go dress up like a Gentile to teach the Gentiles Gentile things. But, there would be disciples who are all together sitting at his feet who were at different stages of their walk when it comes to being like him. The truth is, the more closely one resembles Yeshua, the more one will look like this Jewish Rabbi. There are several forms of Judaism, with Ultra-Orthodox questioning the Jewishness of the Orthodox and the Orthodox questioning the Jewishness of the Conservative Jews and the Conservative Jews questioning the Jewishness of the Reform Jews and all of the above questioning the Jewishness of Messianic Jews. Which form is right? Who really is the authority and who has legitimacy? And, even though the Mishnah and Talmud plays a roll, the reality is that any authority that the writings of the sages may or may not have rests on the foundation of the TeNaKh. They fall and rise on this foundation. Therefore, ultimately this is where our legitimacy lies as well. If we are practicing a pursuant life (in which there are varying degrees, colors, and flavors) then we are practicing a form of Judaism...whether or not some other branch of Judaism agrees with our practice or the fine points of our faith. One doesn't need to be born Jewish to be Jewish. Rabbi Akiva would be a good example of this. Eph 2:11-12 - "Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth - called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised - at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Yisrael You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God." Often the scriptures use the word "Gentile" to make a distinction when communicating certain subjects. But, the fact that Gentiles become part of the commonwealth of Yisrael, no longer being strangers, but being fellow citizens of Yisrael...no longer makes them those whom are a part of another nation...thus, they truly are no longer considered Goyim (ones of another nation). Ephesians 2:19 - "So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family." Again, by that definition, seeing that these Gentiles become part of the nation of Yisrael, they technically are no longer in the true sense considered to be Gentiles. Once they have become part of the commonwealth of Yisrael, they are now a part of that nation. Although we could consider the possibility of having dual citizenship (being a citizen of Yisrael and the nation that you originated from), the thrust of scripture communicates that the loyalty is to be with Yisrael and its commonwealth. As a people who are part of a commonwealth - that is where their identification is to be found, while still recognizing that to the glory of HaShem they came from the Nations who saw the light of Adonai. It is important to recognize this to some degree so we can see that as a Kingdom of Kings and Priests Yisrael is doing its job, and prophecy is being fulfilled. But, this doesn't necessarily make these former Gentiles now Jews, but they are to be considered fellow citizens of Yisrael. Without fully taking hold of the (becoming circumcised, ect.) there is somewhat of a need to use the term from time to time for the purpose of distinction. The term is often used to describe the procedure and expectations of those who are just coming to Messiah, and this is the context that we often find the term being used. Those whom have Gentile origins whom are just coming to Messiah and just learning about the wouldn't have even heard the completely read in the synagogues until the three year reading cycle that was employed during that time was complete. Therefore, the person who was a Gentile would be less accountable to these instructions than their Jewish brother or sister who was raised on the from birth. As time goes on...as it is with someone living amongst a particular commonwealth...they become more and more like their neighbors, taking on many of their customs, practices, observances, and so on. The longer they truly remain in that commonwealth the less they look different from their neighbors. Likewise, the longer we truly are a disciple of our Jewish Rabbi, Yeshua The Messiah...the more and more we will begin to look like him. This should not be discouraged or be considered shameful in anyway. This is to the glory of Adonai. Baruch Hashem! Shalom aleychem chaverim, Reuel |
|
tonga
Full Member
Posts: 243
|
Post by tonga on Feb 4, 2010 13:35:46 GMT -8
Exactly, which is why the statement is puzzling.
I'm not sure this is what the person meant. If the statement was made that one must no longer accept Jesus as messiah in order to "convert", then it would seem the person would be speaking of non-Messianic Judaism.
But of course one must take the quote in context, and I am not sure what post it was originally taken from.
It's not so much questioning whether someone is a Jew or not, as it is questioning whether their faith is Jewish or not. A small group of Orthodox rabbis did declare that non-Orthodox Jews were not "Jews", but is an opinion rejected by the vast majority of Jews.
I've heard that before, but I'm not quite sure what is meant by it.
One is a Jew or a gentile, there is not (from my understanding) a
middle ground.
|
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 4, 2010 13:42:45 GMT -8
Shalom Tonga,
You may want to re-read my post as I explain the distinction and why the term may be used even after someone becomes part of the commonwealth of Yisrael. Through deductive reasoning we can know that if someone is now part of the commonwealth of Yisrael...that means they are now a part of that nation and are no longer considered to be someone who has their identity in another foreign nation, thus making them a foreigner. In other words, if we know what it is saying, we can conclude what it is not saying. Does that make sense?
It is not so much a matter between being Jew or Gentile, it is the idea of understanding someone to be a Jew or someone who has become part of the commonwealth of Yisrael...no longer making them a foreigner (Gentile).
Much of my other comments are speaking to the subject of "What's wrong with being a gentile". The very fact that we are to be more and more like our Master Yeshua tells us that his true disciples will look more and more like him...and less and less like a Gentile. This is a good thing!
Actually, many in Judaism speak about people being Jewish or not Jewish based on these criteria. It is commonly held that if a Jewish person comes to faith in Messiah that they are no longer Jewish. In fact many of these believers have had the following statement screamed at them; "Lo Yehudah!" (Not a Jew!), even if they are Jewish on their mother's side. In many cases, a funeral is even held for them as if they are no more...thus being completely cut off from the Jewish people.
It is true that many will consider someone of a heritical faith who has proper Jewish blood to still be a Jew, but because orthodox halachah can play into who is considered to be Jewish (i.e. whether you mother or father is Jewish) and even how one converts to becoming Jewish, various people within different sects of Judaism are looked down upon as not being Jews.
B'rachot b'Yeshua,
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 6, 2010 19:56:44 GMT -8
I would encourage conversion, however, that too would involve dropping all former beliefs in jesus. After having read through the posts in thread once again, I came across this statement, and apparently missed it previously. I find this statement most disturbing, as well as completely inappropriate for a Messianic theology forum. Why would you encourage a Messianic believer to "drop all former beliefs in Yeshua?" I believe that statement deserves an explanation/clarification, given the fact that the very foundation on which this forum rests, is belief in Yeshua as the promised Mashiakh of Israel. Shalom Then you misunderstood me. I said I would encourage it, but.... I know that it would be impossible for you guys because you would have to give up your beliefs in jesus. So it's a non-starter. Basically it comes to down to this. IF a person wants to convert, they will have to give up their former beliefs. If they cannot, then there is no conversion. That's all. I'm not trying to get you guys to leave your beliefs; I'm only giving the Orthodox position. |
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Feb 7, 2010 16:46:54 GMT -8
Then you misunderstood me. I said I would encourage it, but.... I know that it would be impossible for you guys because you would have to give up your beliefs in jesus. So it's a non-starter. Basically it comes to down to this. IF a person wants to convert, they will have to give up their former beliefs. If they cannot, then there is no conversion. That's all. I'm not trying to get you guys to leave your beliefs; I'm only giving the Orthodox position. Thank you for clarifying your statement. I suppose I didn't expect that you were stating the obvious. That Gentiles must renounce faith in Yeshua for conversion to Orthodox Judaism. Unfortunately, that's the only issue preventing me from conversion. I suspect I'm not alone in that capacity. I also read a great deal of Rebbe Nachman, athough I don't consider myself a disciple of his. Your post is the very first time I've read his name mentioned in a forum such as this. It was a pleasant surprise. |
|
|
|
Post by David Ben Yosef on Feb 7, 2010 17:05:14 GMT -8
Messianic Gentiles are Christians Not true. There's many Gentile Messianics who aren't Christians, including myself. A Christian is someone who adheres to the tenets of Christianity. It's not an umbrella term used for anyone who believes in Yeshua. Historical record indicates there were several factions of Messianism in the first century. Only one of those groups adopted the term Christian. Christians are not part of Israel , either prophetically or Biblically. I would agree with that statement since Christians do not take on the yoke of observance, and therefore, they do not enter into a covenant relationship with HaShem. They believe that Yeshua was Christ, and that's the reason why they were called Christians after a whole year that Paul spent in Antioch preaching about Yeshua as Christ. Read Acts 11:26. Ben The term Christian was given by the Jews to mock believers in Yeshua. It has nothing to do with Sha'ul. And again, not everyone who believes Yeshua is the promised Mashiakh of Israel are Christians. |
|
. What's next, when you become a Jew then you will want to be a cherub? 
observance. Notice how the observance of Shabbat is absent from those laws? Shabbat was set apart as a day of rest, and blessing for all of mankind from the Bereshith, not Sinai.
