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Post by zionlion on Oct 15, 2009 21:18:53 GMT -8
I've been through 15 pages and, yes, it's interesting and, yes, I have issues but, as you said, you already know that. I will tread on. Feel free to keep sending down those Jewish terms (like Smicha (?)) I'm looking them up as fast as you can send 'em. Learning a lot.  And Mir is....? |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Oct 16, 2009 8:02:16 GMT -8
Rabbinical ordination The Mir is the largest yeshiva in the world, located in Jerusalem. It's Charedi (ultra orthodox)...I didn't figure you would want to study with the Reform  |
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Post by zionlion on Oct 16, 2009 9:52:43 GMT -8
I had already looked up Smicha so I knew the definition. I just wasn't sure if I had spelled it correctly. I'd love to go to Jerusalem and there are things I admire about the ultra-Orthodox, but since the admission process might be difficult, I'd better stay here. Maybe I could find a messianic yeshiva? |
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Post by zionlion on Oct 18, 2009 20:04:53 GMT -8
I'm about halfway through the document and since you've said my opinions won't offend you, I will offer some thoughts "on the fly"; beginning with the general premise of the writer. The writer states:
"There is an eternal Oral Law that explains the details of the Written Law and was given to Moshe by Hashem."In the 25 pages that I've read so far, the writer provides no evidence to support that statement. He also contradicts himself by giving the example of Daniel observing oral law given by Jewish "sages" (not Moses). Well, that's a start. Hope you had a nice Shabbat. |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Oct 19, 2009 8:24:34 GMT -8
I'm about halfway through the document and since you've said my opinions won't offend you, I will offer some thoughts "on the fly"; beginning with the general premise of the writer. The writer states:
"There is an eternal Oral Law that explains the details of the Written Law and was given to Moshe by Hashem."In the 25 pages that I've read so far, the writer provides no evidence to support that statement. He also contradicts himself by giving the example of Daniel observing oral law given by Jewish "sages" (not Moses). Well, that's a start. Hope you had a nice Shabbat. Had a very nice shabbat, but as usual ate way too much (including going to two kiddush lunches) Time to start a diet. I thought he gave very good scriptural evidence in the first section as to why we believe Oral law exists. But, as I said, I'm not out to convince you, and certainly do not believe you should follow it. Just thought you might enjoy our view point |
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Post by zionlion on Oct 19, 2009 15:12:24 GMT -8
Kiddush. (looking it up) Why don't you want to convince me? If it's truth, I need to know it. If it's from Elohim, shouldn't I know it? Keeping noahide law isn't something I look forward to. (because I can't) Am I doomed to end up in the hot place? My life hangs in the balance. What am I to do? Should I become a proselyte? (Maybe I could go to the Mir after all.) |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Oct 20, 2009 12:59:34 GMT -8
Why don't you want to convince me? If it's truth, I need to know it. If it's from Elohim, shouldn't I know it? Because I believe the covenant was given to Jews and therefore gentiles do not need to follow  , written or oral. Of course they may choose to, just as they may choose to convert to Judaism, remain a Noahide or a Messianic. Why not? Nah, there is no "hot place" to end up in, and besides you are too nice of a guy What balance? What you are doing now. Nah. Sure, why not, you'll fit in with the other 5,000+ people there  |
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Post by zionlion on Oct 20, 2009 15:24:10 GMT -8
Don't you think this partial quote thing is getting a little out of hand or are you just showing off? The covenants are with Jews but and covenant are separate and distinct items. If you'll read my signature, you'll see that Elohim doesn't share your opinion. Aliens were required to keep . That kinda puts a dent in noahide theology, don't you think? So, I can choose whether to obey the Law of Elohim or not? I must have missed that chapter. Well, you're right. I am a nice guy. But that wouldn't keep me out of hell. The One who is a light unto the gentiles has given me that gift. My life would hang in the balance if I thought like you. I don't recall Moses speaking of noahide law and rabbinic invention just won't cut it. Are there really a lot of messianic gentiles at the Mir? That's great! I'm totally against using partial quotes... because I still haven't figured it out. (you're the best) |
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Post by yeshuafreak on Oct 24, 2009 9:37:08 GMT -8
first: our tenets are the exact same except the beleif of Yeshua as the Mashiach and not as much emphasiss on the rabbis. some others believe in the trinity, but that is unscriptural, and some bleive they should reject the rabbis entirely, which is not wholesome. we believe in the resurrection and so on. when RABBInNIC judiasm rejects it. i do not think MJ should be regareded as a subsetr of RJ, but it should be s subset of Judaism as a whole. its just as there were Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, etc, and denominations within those faiths, but all were judaisms. only some of its tenets are foreign to RJ, as mentioned before. also, even if it was completely different from RJ, it is still based on the Protojudaism which both RJ and MJ broke off of. as for it being foreign to - there are definitely customs foreign to the ancient meannings of 's scriptures. however, that is so in RJ as well. plus, is updated through the centuries anyway- not all of it applies today. and where is the evidence that most of its adherants are not jewish? you can provide none, because there is no evidence for either argument, ebcause there has not been a conclusive poll number recorded. this is a comon misconception and rumor. well like i said above, you cannot prove the statement that most followers are not jewish, jsut as we cannot disporve the statemetn- no numbers have been provided, though there is an estimate of ~1500 jewish followers. as for the argument that RJ is manmade, i personally hold a unitarian view on religions. (NOTE: i am not teaching this doctrine, as that would be against the rules, but i am just stating my belief). All religions can at best point to the truth but no rleigion IS the tuth. so RJ can be used to point to the turht just as much as MJ can- all religions are man made methods of reaching the truth. but you wouldnt agree with me nor most people here. anyway, nice talk. shalom |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Oct 24, 2009 19:39:05 GMT -8
Don't you think this partial quote thing is getting a little out of hand or are you just showing off? Hey, it's about the only think I know about computers, so yes, I have to show it off Actually, for me it's easier to follow a conversation if someone uses quotes so I know exactly what they are responding to. I disagree with your interpretation of the verse in your siggy. We could see treif food to aliens and we could charge them interest and I believe ( I'll though I'll have to double check this one) we did not their forgive monetary debts. There were specific instances when aliens could observe certain aspects of the , but the observe the whole, no. Did not the non-jews have their own area in the Temple? not in the least Yep, just follow the Noahide laws...and better go reread that chapter And modest, too! LOL How about the fact that there is no hell? That will keep you out of it... Actually, I was just reading something about a part of the NT where it almost to a word lists the Noahide laws...I'll have to go see if I can remember where I saw it. If I can do it, anyone can do it, LOL. |
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Post by zionlion on Oct 24, 2009 20:05:58 GMT -8
tonga, I'd like to correct a mistake I made. In my last post, I said that aliens were required to keep . I was wrong. More poor research. After further review, I see now that aliens were permitted, but not required, to keep . I apologize for the error. If I ever learn how to do partial quotes - look out! |
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Post by Mark on Oct 25, 2009 5:15:03 GMT -8
A couple of things. First, says repeatedly that there is one law for the homogenous Jew and for the stranger (alien) who dwells among you. In Numbers 15, this is even to the point of making burnt offerings at the Temple. The exlusion of the gentiles from certain chambers of the Temple (or the exclusion of women for that matter) is not in the original design but came with Herod's Temple. There is a distinction between "the stranger who dwells among you" and the guy who is just passing through. is not enforced upon anyone who isn't a willing participant. If you don't wish to participate, however, you simply have no connection with the Lord, God of Israel. We had a specific thread discussion the Noahide laws. Actually we had two and when I was cleaning things up, it appears that I deleted the wrong one. We should probably start one again, as this must undoubtedly come up; but I haven't the time right now. I'd appreciate it ifyou want to launch into that discussion, start up a new thread; but here's some fuel for the fire: www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/NoachideETS2.pdf |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Oct 25, 2009 6:32:33 GMT -8
Actually, I just realized I am doing something that wasn't my
intention when I came to the forum-arguing against your
beliefs.
I came here to learn about them, not to disagree with them.
Apologies all around.
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Oct 25, 2009 6:33:16 GMT -8
If I ever learn how to do partial quotes - look out! I'm trembling with fear..... |
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Post by Mark on Oct 25, 2009 7:06:35 GMT -8
Hi Tonga,
When things don't make sense to you or you understand something different, please express it. I understand your position and I respect what you are trying to do- there is no sense that you are trying to lead people away from the truth of Scripture. And if our goal was to promote my position or your position, as opposed to what is truth, our discussion would have never been worth any of our time.
If you present an argument contrary to what I believe and convince me that I am wrong, you have not defeated me but drawn me out of a pit of ignorance. If you present an argument and do not convince me, you have made me stronger and given me a better understanding of what I really believe. Either way I win. Please do not feel inhibited in our discussions.
The worst case scenario is I could edit out all the posts that prove me wrong, post a final remark that makes me look superior and ban you from the site... but you and I would both know the truth. And if truth is not the end goal of this discussion, what's the point? There are a whole lot better venues out there for someone like me trying to promote my own ideas than this.
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and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. [Numbers 15:16]
