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Post by zionlion on Sept 24, 2009 20:03:46 GMT -8
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Feb 14, 2010 20:34:25 GMT -8
And here is the real and natural definition for the term: Messianic Judaism is the Judaism whose adepts believe that Israel is the Messiah. That's simply your own private definition. It has no resemblance to the real definition of Messianic Judaism. |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Feb 15, 2010 3:50:39 GMT -8
Messianic Judaism is the Judaism whose adepts believe that Israel is the Messiah. How can that be? |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Feb 15, 2010 17:46:11 GMT -8
It can't. It is in direct opposition to the Tanakh, the teachings of Yeshua, the Apostolic writings, and the teachings of the Talmudic Sages. Which all taught an individual Mashiakh. However, Israel was indeed to be a "type" of Mashiakh, and to be a deliverer of  to the Nations [being a light unto them]. To which the Yehudim refused, collectively [especially after the enactment of the 18 measures of Shammai which cut Israel off from interaction with Gentiles]. The day these ordinances were enacted the Talmud records that it was a day more grievous to Israel than the sin of the golden calf. Shammai had the sect of the Zealots murder most of the Bet Hillel Pharisees, and in so doing, ensured his rulings would be instituted. But a remnant was obedient to the commission of HaShem, to take to the Gentiles, who were the remaining Bet Hillel Pharisees [of which Yeshua was a member - Jn 1:24-27]. |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Feb 16, 2010 2:20:42 GMT -8
Exactly
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Post by yiska on Apr 30, 2013 7:57:16 GMT -8
I would like to share this since we are talking about what is Messianic Judaism. here is a youtube I believe might help. comments are welcome  |
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Post by messianicmama on Apr 30, 2013 8:43:04 GMT -8
If I may, the term Messianic Judaism is really an umbrella term describing any system that incorporates Yeshua/Jesus into a hebraic context or any system that incorporates hebraic concepts into Christian practice. That isn't to say that what it ought to be, but that is the range of what you get when you walk into a MJ congregation. Just as the term, "Christian" means something different to every subset and denomination, MJ also looks different everywhere you go. I have visited more than 50 congregations in my day and I have never- not once- found two with the same doctrine, practice or positions. Some are no different than evangelical church, save that they use hebraic terms here and there. Some are no different that conservative Jewish synagogue, save that they believe Yeshua is the Messiah. Some are wild pentecostal, some are modest traditional. Some spend the whole service slamming Christianity or Judaism or rabbis, some spend it all dancing around. Some do topical sermons, others follow the parashot. There are Karaites, anti-Judaism, anti-gentile, quasi-Chasidic and scary, cultish groups. There is no standard. We must define what we personally mean when we say we practice MJ. Do we mean that we keep the ? Follow Jewish tradition? Are born again? Believe in the trinity? Are party of Christianity? Are actually Israelites? We ought to write our own statement of faith and really figure out what we believe. It's no longer simple. |
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Post by alon on Apr 30, 2013 9:54:24 GMT -8
messianic mama makes a good point about statements of faith. Actually, this site has a pretty good statement of faith. I always check out any organizations statement of faith before fellowshipping with them. She also is correct (in my limited experience) about Messianic Judaism being too disjointed and ununified to make any absolute statements about who they are. There do however seem to be some commonalities and a few distinct subdivisions. True Messianic Judaism studies and follows the entire Bible, and strives for some level of observance. The largest division I see here is the "Trinitarian vs. Non-Trinitarian" issue. Even here, I don't think most of us are Trinitarian in the traditional mainstream sense of the word. There is also a Hebrew Roots movement in which people are trying to put their Biblical interpretations back into the context of a Jewish religion based on customs and traditions of the times. These are people who do not want to observe as Jews, just understand better. Within this group are some good, solid interpretations. There is also a lot of craziness. The ones I have personally run into here are the "Sacred Names" and "Two House" folks. My opinion is they are certifiable, but I'd have to qualify that by saying my sample group was small and (I hate to say) very local. Unfortunately Hebrew Roots seems to be the largest group, and where we all tend to get lumped by the uninformed. Then there are the cults. It is  , but they tend to spin off of both groups and paint the movements in a very bad light. If people bother to get on the net and try to look at what I'm doing, they always seem to find either some of the fringe Hebrew Roots people or worse, these cults. Of course the really bad ones are what they try to confront me with. Just my observations. Sort of where I see the major groupings. I'm sure some will take issue- for example some of the Hebrew Roots folks would probably like to be separated from all the craziness in the rest of the group. Fine with me, as this is just my opinion based on limited observations. Be interesting to see what others think. Dan C |
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Post by yiska on Apr 30, 2013 11:05:02 GMT -8
One thing I know for sure is that we are all learning to observe/obey the in faith. I don't think we should cling on what type of religion we belong to...but have a relationship with the Father should be more important. It would be interesting to see what others think Messianic Judaism means. I think the issues are based on opinions. I like to look at facts before reading into someone elses opinions without facts to back it up. Even if someone else says it just might help someone to understand it a bit better than they did before. I won't say they are right 100% of the time. But you gotta start somewhere, do your own studying and compare. We are all learning rather you been in MJC for 20 years or starting out a newbie. We are all learning day by day. Everyday is a new day to learn something new. Shalom shalom! |
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Post by danstevens on Apr 30, 2013 13:54:19 GMT -8
Alon This is why I stopped Identifying myself as a messianic Jew sometime ago. The term has aquired as much baggage as the term Christian and it took a lot less time to do so. I am a follower of the way. I have been kicked out of messianic churches for not being "messianic" enough and out of Very conservative Sabbatarian groups for being too messianic. I believe we are to develop a personal relationship with Yeshua and the Father and to serve the brethren to the best of our knowledge. How we do that is determined by the "talents" or "gifts" we are given each according to our natural abilities for the perfecting of the saints so that we all grow into maturity in Yeshua. This is why we have to fellowship or meet so that we can help each other grow. We all need to change our thinking and our direction. Laying aside the commandments of men once in things like Christmas and sunday worship have we all erred into picking up other beggerly elements such as rote prayers and unbiblical fast days? In my mind yes. We need to weed these things out and put our focus on Yeshua and the way which leads to life. We are not to be followers of a religion or man but followers of YHVH. period |
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tonga
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Post by tonga on Apr 30, 2013 14:44:27 GMT -8
This is why I stopped Identifying myself as a messianic Jew sometime ago. Are you Jewish? |
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Post by alon on Apr 30, 2013 16:41:33 GMT -8
... I think the issues are based on opinions. I like to look at facts before reading into someone elses opinions without facts to back it up. Even if someone else says it just might help someone to understand it a bit better than they did before. I won't say they are right 100% of the time. But you gotta start somewhere, do your own studying and compare. ... Agree. This is why checking out who you are potentially worshiping with is so important. For me, the place to start is their statement of faith. If they don't have, or won't show me a solid, plainly written SoF, then I get really suspicious really fast. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Apr 30, 2013 17:10:53 GMT -8
... I believe we are to develop a personal relationship with Yeshua and the Father and to serve the brethren to the best of our knowledge. How we do that is determined by the "talents" or "gifts" we are given each according to our natural abilities for the perfecting of the saints so that we all grow into maturity in Yeshua. This is why we have to fellowship or meet so that we can help each other grow. ... Very true. I still keep part of my identity as a "Christian" and worship at an AoG church, where I am very active. They know of my problems with mainstream Christianity, but we work it out. I go to classes on Weds. with a Messianic group out of Wenatchee, but am not a member of their congregation. Couple of issues I won't go into here, but they are good people and the rabbi is knowledgeable. Again, they are aware of my issues, and we all (mostly me since it is their class) adapt. I see nothing wrong with keeping any traditions, as long as they do not go against Biblical instructions. Whenever I do keep any Jewish traditions, or commandments either for that matter, I try to do so as close to how they do it as possible except for the "fences". Why reinvent the wheel? But I don't get too upset if I can't do it as they do either. I'm not trying to copy but to be obedient. And I refuse to "play Jew", which I see a lot of. Dan C |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 10, 2018 15:42:11 GMT -8
Messianic Judaism is the Judaism whose adepts believe that Israel is the Messiah. How can that be? That's based on the collective concept of Messiah. BTW, it makes a lot of sense. Prophet Habakkuk used to believe in that concept. If you read Habakkuk 3:13 "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God according to Exodus 4:22,23. There is another way to look at this concept. The Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) That's the only way to remain the Messiah for- ever, as a people and not as an individual. |
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Post by alon on Sept 10, 2018 18:30:13 GMT -8
That's based on the collective concept of Messiah. BTW, it makes a lot of sense. Prophet Habakkuk used to believe in that concept. If you read Habakkuk 3:13 "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God according to Exodus 4:22,23. There is another way to look at this concept. The Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) That's the only way to remain the Messiah for- ever, as a people and not as an individual. Actually the modern Messianic movement has nothing to do with belief that Israel is the Messiah. Quite the opposite, we proclaim an individual to be HaMoshiach, and that is Yeshua. I also advise Meshiachim not to let anyone else define them or their faith. In this case I am not allowing you to redefine it or us. We are who and what we are, and no one else's ideas of what we should be will change that. Yeshua is both Moshiach and God- that is the message of true contemporary Messianic Judaism, whether it be Jewish believers who do not want to give up their Jewishness to become Christian or Gentiles who have chosen to reexamine what we were taught about the Bible and to interpret as close as possible to what the 1st century CE Jewish believers understood it to be. As for your argument which you are cutting and pasting as many places as you can find that Israel is the Messiah, it has been answered several times already. Reposting it won't make it true. What you are doing is a form of logical fallacy called "Circular Argument"- just ignore it when you are answered and restate your argument, thus wasting time and testing the patience of whoever you are discussing with. But again: Habakkuk 3:13 (ESV)
You went out for the salvation of your people,
for the salvation of your anointed.
You crushed the head of the house of the wicked,
laying him bare from thigh to neck. SelahThat Israel was anointed or saved by Elohim is not unusual. Even the Ninivites were saved after Jonah preached to them. And there were many anointed ones in the Bible: priests, prophets, kings and others upon who He placed a calling. So calling Israel His people, to whom He definitely id give a calling anointed should be no surprise. But it does not prove that a man could not be anointed as Messiah. And almost the entire nation of Israel apparently agreed in the 1st cen, because they were looking for Him. An army of wise men came from the east (not just 3 as we were taught) because they were looking for him and saw His star, the sign He was born. Exodus 4:22-23 (ESV) Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son, and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me.” If you refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill your firstborn son.’”Now this IS an allegory, as Israel is here depicted as a son, compared to an individual, the son of a pagan ruler. Elohim loves Israel just as this ruler loves his son. You mess with my family, I will mess with yours. And again, as many times before, I will tell you that the issue of how the Messiah could be a man yet come more than once was answered in Yeshua, as both God and man. He can come whenever He wants, and as many times as He wants. However nowhere in scripture does it say we must have a Messiah in all generations as you claim. In the TNK there were what we call theophanies, times when God appeared to men, such as when He appeared to Avraham. I and others believe this was in the form of Yeshua. And certainly He could come as Moshiach ben Yoseph and later as Moshiach ben Dovid. Dan C moderator note: and here I am going to have to ask that you cease with this posting of the same arguments (statements) over and over. It is a waste of time after it has already been answered several times. Also the reposting of the same statements is another way of trying to teach. We appreciate your input, but not the same thing ad infinitum. Once an argument has been dealt with, that should be an end to it. Thanks. Dan |
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and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. [Numbers 15:16]
, but they tend to spin off of both groups and paint the movements in a very bad light. If people bother to get on the net and try to look at what I'm doing, they always seem to find either some of the fringe Hebrew Roots people or worse, these cults. Of course the really bad ones are what they try to confront me with.
