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Post by mystic on Dec 25, 2018 4:41:29 GMT -8
I only now saw this thread but pardon me for butting in guys. Recently I was explaining to a local Orthodox guy that I am in between the OT and NT so while I don't officially belong to any religion I think I more identify with MJ to which he replied:
"a religion that preaches belief in Jesus as Deity or as Messiah, such as the one known on the Internet as "Messianic Judaism," is not Judaism."
What do you guys say to this please?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 25, 2018 5:21:40 GMT -8
I only now saw this thread but pardon me for butting in guys. Recently I was explaining to a local Orthodox guy that I am in between the OT and NT so while I don't officially belong to any religion I think I more identify with MJ to which he replied: "a religion that preaches belief in Jesus as Deity or as Messiah, such as the one known on the Internet as "Messianic Judaism," is not Judaism." What do you guys say to this please? Either saying something in the Spirit of G-d calling me to, or nothing. I would just walk away unless I felt convicted to speak. |
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Post by alon on Dec 27, 2018 2:15:48 GMT -8
I only now saw this thread but pardon me for butting in guys. Recently I was explaining to a local Orthodox guy that I am in between the OT and NT so while I don't officially belong to any religion I think I more identify with MJ to which he replied: "a religion that preaches belief in Jesus as Deity or as Messiah, such as the one known on the Internet as "Messianic Judaism," is not Judaism." What do you guys say to this please? I always say I am a believer in Messianic Judaism. That way they know exactly where I am coming from. Mainstream Judaism does not think we are Jews, by adoption or conversion. And from their perspective they are correct. We do not follow the precepts of Rabbinical Judaism, and we are not Jewish by blood, so to them we are not Jews. So to them I say I follow a religion based as much as we can on 1st cen Judaism and the sect of the Notsarim. And they were at the time considered by Jews to be just another sect of Judaism. And a very large one at that. One thing though: we are not "in between the OT and NT." We are very much about the entire 66 book Bible, both Old and New Testaments. In fact, we consider them to be one book; one covenant. One author, one book, one message. Further we look to other texts for instruction- books like Judith or 1 & 2 Maccabees. nd we look to many other texts for understanding- the Dead Sea Scrolls for example have a lot of writings that better help us understand Revelation, as they are written in the Apocryphal tradition, just as Revelation is. And in fact much of what is in Revelation is quotes from some of these writings! We also look to the Mishna and even the entire Talmud. While we are not bound by Rabbinical tradition from the late 3rd cen CE on, we do not ignore what these very Godly men wrote. Your Jewish friend still won't like it, but in the end we ask no ones permission to do what we do. If God said it, we do it. If the Rabbonim said it, well, we'll consider it, and maybe we'll do it. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 27, 2018 7:31:50 GMT -8
Not everyone in the Kingdom of G-d will be or is Jewish. It's prophetic that the nations be drawn to  and Israel. I don't have reason to take issue with what he considers Judaism because G-d does. How can you say anyone who rejects Yeshua is G-dly Alon? Look I won't treat this man as an enemy, but in terms of G-d, he is my enemy. So my general suggestion is don't consider anyone who insults Yeshua your friend, and if G-d isn't calling you to serve as a witness in truth, you should limit your interaction with him as you are still figuring out your own way. |
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Post by alon on Dec 27, 2018 12:31:37 GMT -8
Not everyone in the Kingdom of G-d will be or is Jewish. It's prophetic that the nations be drawn to and Israel. I don't have reason to take issue with what he considers Judaism because G-d does. How can you say anyone who rejects Yeshua is G-dly Alon? Look I won't treat this man as an enemy, but in terms of G-d, he is my enemy. So my general suggestion is don't consider anyone who insults Yeshua your friend, and if G-d isn't calling you to serve as a witness in truth, you should limit your interaction with him as you are still figuring out your own way. You are being very narrow in your definition of Godly. I didn't say they were right about everything, or that they liked us. Just the opposite. As I told mystic, they don't like MJ, and we do not follow everything they say. However these men have immersed themselves in and the TNK, as well as many other books which give understanding. Their so caled 613 Mitxvot (and they do mean "laws") are really extrapolations on deeper study of . However they did not get it all right, nor is their understanding complete. Look, I don't particularly like the church, and they got almost everything wrong! But I've met some very Godly men there too!Men who questioned and didn't get everything wrong (just most of it). You don't have to be "right" about everything to be Godly; just seek earnestly the things of God: god·ly (gŏd′lē)
1. Having great reverence for God; pious.
2. having a religious character; pious; devout: a godly man.
3. obeying and revering God; devout.
4. coming from God; divine.If it were not for the Jews, much of what we know about and God would be lost to the fires and sword of Christianity. They endured for 2000 yrs under this persecution, and protected and preserved the Word above all things. So yes, I call them Godly. Not right, not tolerant of us or our views, but still Godly. And very many times what they wrote is worth reading. If you go back to some of my earlier par'shot here, you'll see I cite both Jewish and Christian sources. Being MJ is a learning process as much as anything. Yes, we have to be careful. Use discernment. But Messianic sources are few, and almost always either vey incomplete in their own understanding or outright Two House, Ebionite, or some other deviant message. So we are in the precarious position of having to read from all these sources and prayerfully think for ourselves.And yes, there is a lot of enmity towards us from both camps. But just because a person makes himself my enemy doesn't mean everything he says is wrong. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 27, 2018 13:52:55 GMT -8
I don't think I'm being narrow minded. Being G-dly implies you are in the will of G-d and pursuing a holiness that G-d Himself will only recognize through Yeshua. There's lots of people who look holy and G-dly, but it doesn't make it so if they are thwarting G-d's will. Yeshua spoke the harshest about the people who "looked" the holiest because they were misleading and hindering people. Here's the simple truth Alon, all the scripture study and understanding does nothing in G-d's eyes except maybe further condemn them as they are either that much less without excuse or they are guilty of hiding the truth from people who are looking to them for it - us as well as their own people. If anything surpasses or takes the place of scripture, how could it be anything more than idolatry? Fine we can get some context and understanding, but don't ignore that the little truth has for many people only furthered a lie that separates them from G-d.
The last time we went through this with you mystic, it seemed you just got more and more confused. The more you look to people who hate Yeshua and refuse to see Him as Messiah, the harder it was for you. I'm not sure you're fully convinced of Him either in all honesty, but while you're figuring it out, I don't think entering into more debate between them and us will help. The issue will remain whether you believe in Him or not, not what we would say to them because what we say won't convince them unless G-d has opened their heart and eyes to receive it. Further, whatever I would say would be from G-d so I can't tell you as of now as I just wouldn't have the conversation unless He called me to. We can respect people, have compassion, and be wise -"innocent as doves but as shrewd as a serpent". Just recognize that this man likely hates us and we're saying his way is not pleasing to G-d.
Distinguish between people who are open to the truth and not. Maybe I heard the tone wrong as this is a message board, but he doesn't sound like someone open to it. If that's the case, I think you're better off to focus on your own walk with Yeshua as your teacher, and he's better off if you don't push him on it. It sounds to me like he would just further harden his heart.
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Post by jimmie on Dec 27, 2018 14:55:44 GMT -8
"a religion that preaches belief in Jesus as Deity or as Messiah, such as the one known on the Internet as "Messianic Judaism," is not Judaism." If I listen to how the church teaches Jesus is Deity and/or Messiah, I believe this to be a true statement. The church teaches the concept of the holy trinity. The father, son and holy ghost are three separate coequal beings in the triune god head. This breaks the following scriptures: Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: If however Jesus and the LORD are the same as taught in the new testament those scriptures remain intact and the statement becomes false. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Messiah that the church teaches came to do away with the law and make changes which is what the anti-christ does. Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. However the Bible teaches that Jesus actually came to establish and fulfill the Law. This again makes the statement false. Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. If all I knew was the Old Testament, and a church member presented christ to me as the church does, I would reject him as anti-christ. If Jesus Christ was presented to me as the New Testament shows him, I would accept him as my Messiah. |
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Post by alon on Dec 27, 2018 17:11:25 GMT -8
I don't think I'm being narrow minded. Being G-dly implies you are in the will of G-d and pursuing a holiness that G-d Himself will only recognize through Yeshua. There's lots of people who look holy and G-dly, but it doesn't make it so .... If anything surpasses or takes the place of scripture, how could it be anything more than idolatry? Fine we can get some context and understanding, but don't ignore that the little truth has for many people only furthered a lie that separates them from G-d. Elizabeth, I did not say you were being narrow minded. That takes things a few steps further. I said you were using a narrow definition of Godly. The definition I gave you is a composite from the "Free Dictionary Online." That is what the term means in the English language. The definition you are using is from the church, and pretty much means you agree with us or you're going to Hell. Many Jews are seeking God diligently and fervently. It is  they are blinded to Yeshua; they seek Him and don't even know it! But by the definition I gave, that makes them no less Godly. If someone is practicing things that are not Godly, I don't waste my time with them. I won't look at Reform or Liberal Judaism, nor at the other extreme the Ultra Orthodox; and certainly not at Ebionism or polygamists who claim to be within our own movement. But when I was asked to write halacha for my synagogue, I use the 613 Mitzvoth as a guide, throwing out some for sure, but expanding on others and including them. Some things of course are unique to us, but I did not just make them up and write them in. I researched how Judaism does it and why, and I looked into scripture, and discussed with Rabbi before writing them. Had I not thought they were seeking God, I would not have used their works. But they've been doing this for 3500 years. Why reinvent the wheel as well as risk leaving something out: something at least one of the Rabonim probably put on the list! The rest of the post I like and agree with. mystic, I've told you the same thing several times. You need to get a good grounding in MJ before branching out, talking to other religions and reading too much of their literature. Until then, you will stay confused. The warning Elizabeth gave me is a valid one, "but don't ignore that the little truth has for many people only furthered a lie that separates them from G-d." I've seen it happen even to people who were well grounded in MJ. One of our former moderators here fell into the trap and fully converted to Orthodox Judaism. At your stage of learning it can be extremely dangerous to seriously talk to others about religion. Settle in and learn the basics of MJ first, then you can start looking into other readings to help your understanding. But you have to have something to help before you can help it ... if that made any sense. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 27, 2018 18:31:47 GMT -8
My church didn't talk about being G-dly. I didn't start really thinking about it untill after I began studying all of scripture and pursuing Torah so it's my definition. It's G-d Who says if you don't agree with Him, you're going to hell. It's just the truth that if you deny Yeshua, you're not a part of His Kingdom. I didn't make that rule and neither did the church. It's just biblical. I also didn't start taking Yeshua as seriously as I am until I started reading more of the Torah. I don't know how to explain it. Yeshua is the One Who met me here. I just won't tolerate someone insulting Him, Jewish or not. I can deal with not understanding, not agreeing, or being defensive because of history. I can deal with worry over protecting people from what someone believes is a lie. But we need to recognize that the adversary is using some Jewish people as much as he uses anyone else so we still have to draw a line. If someone's insulting Yeshua, we either need to speak up in the will of G-d or leave. We need to be insulted along with Him just for the sake of witness. Maybe this man wasn't insulting Him the way I'm hearing it, but there are Jewish people who do. We need to handle being insulted in a G-dly fashion, but we can't tolerate Yeshua being cursed or blasphemed. That's why I said if I didn't feel called to witness, I'd just walk away. It's just a matter of where our loyalty lies. It's Yeshua Who made our way and we are witnesses of the truth on behalf of Jewish people that they are G-d's chosen people because of what Yeshua has done for us. I'm not directing all this at you Alon, this is just the result of me trying to figure out why I'm so frustrated. I feel like I have to have a double standard for Jewish people verses other religions on here sometimes and it doesn't seem helpful. Maybe it's because we call what we do Judausm on here and I don't just cause I don't want to offend and I'm not Jewish. We have a lot of conversations I just don't have other places because of that so maybe that's part of our misunderstanding and my frustration. He had a problem with this being called Judaism. Im not really offended by that so maybe we're discussing two different things.
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Post by alon on Dec 27, 2018 19:02:02 GMT -8
My church didn't talk about being G-dly. I didn't start really thinking about it untill after I began studying all of scripture and pursuing so it's my definition. It's G-d Who says if you don't agree with Him, you're going to hell. It's just the truth that if you deny Yeshua, you're not a part of His Kingdom. I didn't make that rule and neither did the church. It's just biblical. I also didn't start taking Yeshua as seriously as I am until I started reading more of the . I don't know how to explain it. Yeshua is the One Who met me here. I just won't tolerate someone insulting Him, Jewish or not. I can deal with not understanding, not agreeing, or being defensive because of history. I can deal with worry over protecting people from what someone believes is a lie. But we need to recognize that the adversary is using some Jewish people as much as he uses anyone else so we still have to draw a line. If someone's insulting Yeshua, we either need to speak up in the will of G-d or leave. We need to be insulted along with Him just for the sake of witness. Maybe this man wasn't insulting Him the way I'm hearing it, but there are Jewish people who do. We need to handle being insulted in a G-dly fashion, but we can't tolerate it. It's just a matter of where our loyalty lies. It's Yeshua Who made our way and we are witnesses of the truth on behalf of Jewish people that they are G-d's chosen people because of what Yeshua has done for us. I'm not directing all this at you Alon, this is just the result of me trying to figure out why I'm so frustrated. I feel like I have to have a double standard for Jewish people verses other religions on here sometimes and it doesn't seem helpful. Maybe it's because we call what we do Judausm on here and I don't just cause I don't want to offend and I'm not Jewish. We have a lot of conversations I just don't have other places because of that so maybe that's part of our misunderstanding and my frustratin. I'm not Jewish and I don't belong at any church. I just love G-d, want to be in His will, believe the Bible, and know I'm a part of Israel because Yeshua brought me here. OK, I think I see where the problem is. I was not saying the Jewish person mystic spoke to was Godly, and certainly not that all Jews are Godly. Just that many of the Jewish writers and Rabonim were Godly. And I do not intend to imply they are saved. I agree we need to take a stand for Yeshua. I do however see where they are coming from saying we are not Jewish. I've told some that who God says is a Jew is. Others just what I believe. Depends on the person. But yes, if he gets all up in my face I have a tendency to get confrontational. Something I have to work on. What we call ourselves or where we see our place in all this is problematic for all of us. I don't like to say "I'm a Jew" because that gives people ideas and expectations about me I can't meet. I was raised Southern Baptist, so I don't have the life's experiences a Jew did. I don't ave the historical context, nor have I experienced all the moedim, the Shabbatot, or anything else which until recently was particular to Judaism. And since I live in a divided home, much of this I still can't experience even close to the way it should. So I never tell people "I'm a Jew." I am a believer in Messianic Judaism. And as I said earlier, we ask permission of no man to practice as we understand . Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 31, 2018 12:55:21 GMT -8
I don't think I'm being narrow minded. Being G-dly implies you are in the will of G-d and pursuing a holiness that G-d Himself will only recognize through Yeshua. ; Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. |
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they are blinded to Yeshua; they seek Him and don't even know it! But by the definition I gave, that makes them no less Godly.
