Passover

[chrisg]

I thought I had it all worked out too, so you have my sympathies Elizabeth. The online calendar I used (a Jewish one), said Passover is 22nd, starting at sunset. I checked the order of events in my Bible and it seems they killed the Passover lamb in the afternoon of 14th of the month, then ate the meal just after sundown, when the 15th had started. The 1st day of unleavened bread then started with the Passover meal on 15th. So both Passover and Unleavened bread are on the 15th and only the killing of the lamb was on the 14th 'between the evenings', which has been interpreted by the Jewish rabbis as being between 3pm and 5.30pm on the afternoon of the 14th. When you take into account cooking the lamb, then eating the meal, it would definitely have been after sundown when they managed to eat the meal and near (or after) midnight when they left the land of Egypt. But as that occurred after sunset, it would logically have become the 15th of the month by then.

That was my understanding and now i am somewhat confused again

[alon]

Well, I've checked and Erev Pesach is Fri the 22nd. chrisg, your explanation is as good as any I suppose. Thanks.

I am still not sure just how this aligns with though. For me, I will observe both days the best I can (not difficult since by my reckoning the 23rd is Unleavened bread, itself a Shabbat. I am also adding an eighth day fence so the only real issue is how and when I will keep the last day. And once again the ex-Gentile sub-sect of the sect of the Nots'rim just muddles through the best we can.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Well I am either going to help clarify or further confuse as I have no idea how this calendar stuff works.  Based on what I have researched this is a leap year in the Hebrew calendar. If so, does that effect this discussion and could it be the source of some of our confusion?

[garrett]

Apr 16, 2016 11:08:57 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Well I am either going to help clarify or further confuse as I have no idea how this calendar stuff works.  Based on what I have researched this is a leap year in the Hebrew calendar. If so, does that effect this discussion and could it be the source of some of our confusion?

I think the leap year may be a factor for some of the confusion. The ancient rabbi's took this into account when framing the calendar to meet the appointed times (for example: the month of Adar I AND Adar II). This leap year also has some Christians that I know confused as to why easter was so much earlier and than Passover this year.

The Jews I know are observing April 22 (starting in evening) through April 30th.

garrett

[alon]

Well, I have been studying (as opposed to just reading) and it appears I have had some misconceptions about Passover.It is the first of the three festivals the Israelites celebrated in the month Nisan, from the 14th to the 21st. However the 14th is not a Shabbatan, as I had thought. It is as some of you have said just a preparation day.

Passages in relating to the Passover:

Exodus 12:1-51- the original Passover story. The most telling verse is Exodus 12:18 (ESV) In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening.

"At evening," the time of transition from the 14th to the 15th.

Exodus 13:3,6-7,10 (ESV) The Feast of Unleavened Bread 3 Then Moses said to the people, “Remember this day in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of slavery, for by a strong hand the Lord brought you out from this place. No leavened bread shall be eaten. … 6 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the Lord. 7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days; no leavened bread shall be seen with you, and no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory. … You shall therefore keep this statute at its appointed time from year to year.

Exodus 23:14-15a (ESV) “Three times in the year you shall keep a feast to me. You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

These do not mention Passover, but just Unleavened Bread.

In Exodus 34:10-28 (which is the real Ten Commandments), Unleavened bread is mentioned as one of the shelosh regalim, but Pesach is only mentioned in passing later.

Leviticus 23:4-14 (ESV) 4 “These are the appointed feasts of the Lord, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight,[Hebrew between the two evenings] is the Lord's Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. 8 But you shall present a food offering to the Lord for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.

This only says eat unleavened bread seven days, which would be the Feast of Unleavened Bread, not Passover. And again it says "at twilight," "between the two evenings" when we would transition into the 15th.

Numbers 9:1-3 (ESV) And the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, “Let the people of Israel keep the Passover at its appointed time. On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall keep it at its appointed time; according to all its statutes and all its rules you shall keep it.”

“At twilight” again seems to say we are going into the 15th to keep Passover, not the 14th.

Numbers 28:16-18 (ESV) “On the fourteenth day of the first month is the Lord's Passover, and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,

Again, it only talks about eating unleavened bread for seven days, the length of the Feast of Unleavened bread. I had always read this as the first day being the 14th; however in light of further study and other scripture I have to conclude I was wrong.

Order of a basic paschal meal:

All unnecessary work is suspended for some hours before the evening of the 14th Nisan. It’s not lawful to eat any ordinary food after midday. No male is admitted to the table unless he is circumcised, even if he were born a Jew.

Exodus 12:48 (ESV) If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

The meal starts at twilight on the 14th, just as we are entering the 15th.

Customarily a minimum of ten people should be present. When the meal is prepared, the family is round the table, the male head of the household taking a place of honor. The first cup of wine is filled, and a blessing asked on the feast by the head of the family, as well as a special one on the cup. The bitter herbs are then placed on the table, and a portion of them eaten. The unleavened bread is next handed round and afterward the lamb placed on the table in front of the head of the family. The paschal lamb could be legally slain and the blood and fat offered only in the Temple. Since we no longer have the Temple, only a shankbone of the lamb is on the table. Other kosher meat is used for the meal. Some say lamb should not be used because sacrifices are illegal without a Temple.

Deuteronomy 16:2 (ESV) And you shall offer the Passover sacrifice to the Lord your God, from the flock or the herd, at the place that the Lord will choose, to make his name dwell there.

Before the lamb is eaten the second cup of wine was filled, and the son, in accordance with Exodus 12:26 asked his father the meaning of the feast. In reply, an account is given of the sufferings of the Israelites in Egypt and of their deliverance, with a particular explanation of 26:5. The lamb is then carved and eaten. The third cup of wine is poured out and drunk.

There are many different orders of service, but these are the basics from far back. All the commanded elements of course point to Yeshua. However it is interesting that all the portions added by men over the years also dramatically illustrate Yeshua and His death, burial and resurrection. This is not surprising, since the additions were made by the Rabbis who were very studious and Godly men, even though they did not accept Yeshua. This illustrates to me that when you base your protocols on study of God's Word, even though you do not accept Yeshua as HaMoshiach He (of course) does; and your rulings will reflect this, though it were not your intent.

So this has forced me to research and look at Passover with new understanding. And it will also force another entry to my “Wrong” thread. Oh well, better to find out and post it than continue in ignorance and lead others astray with bad advice. I apologize for any confusion I caused.

Dan (still a'learnin') C

[chrisg]

This is something I already appreciate about this site - you don't just come with your preconceived views and will check out what has been said and correct if necessary. This is so unlike other (denominational) sites I am or have been on.

Most rather prefer to interpret the scriptures through what they have been taught and either won't discuss it, or won't be like the Bereans and look to see if there is some truth in what has been said. Just been chatting to someone who says he knows little about Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots, but has read some articles by a Christian leader against them that lumps them both together as if they are both the same and concludes they are both in error. I suggested he read some of the actual statements of either or both those movements and check out what they say against the scriptures, but he was not willing, preferring to be judgmental while admitting little knowledge. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[alon]

chris, that's why I come here as well. Being challenged like this makes us all look at what we have been taught, or in this case assumptions I made on just reading through too quickly. Assumptions or false teachings can be internalized and we "own" them, and they are difficult to challenge or change. As Meshiachim we need to be aware of this as we move forward and learn. This is what I mean when I say we pass everything we 'know' and/or believe through the fire several times. We should never lose that willingness to look critically at our beliefs. But along with that we should not discard discernment, following any and every one who comes along with some new revelation. Your analogy of the Bereans methods is spot on. What someone else tells you should withstand the same fires repeatedly if it is true; and so we should subject their statements to serious scrutiny before accepting them.

Christians, like the one you were talking to are so bound up in the propaganda and teachings of their church they refuse to look at anything that seriously challenges what they believe. Lumping HR and MJ all together is a common straw man tactic of Christians. Furthermore you can bet they looked on the net for some of the fringe groups trying to say they are MJ when they are not. Unfortunately it is far easier to find these than it is solid MJ. But they cling to the idea that they know all there is about MJ and it is in error because of these examples they have found. It would be too long a post to recount all the avoidance tactics used by Christians who've challenged me and, finding out I was able to answer them suddenly got very creative in avoiding further conversation. You are not responsible to tell people who just won't listen. But if you do find someone who is interested, I'd say point them here rather than just turning them lose on the internet; because I guarantee they'll find some of our lunatic fringe rather than solid MJ.

We left Christianity because of the problems there, both doctrinally and their being too hidebound to listen to reason. Now we need to stay the course, yet remain teachable. Yet at the same time we need to learn to strengthen our discernment so we do not end up like a leaf in the wind. Most here are doing just that, including you. We all learn from each other, with direct teachings; and through each other with questions and challenges that make us go back and look again, returning to the fire as it were. Every post here is an opportunity to learn- and new believers in MJ will do that to you just as easily as some of the old guard. I used to teach 1st Aid classes when I was on the ambulance crew. If the class is engaged, they will ask questions or tell you things from their experiences with relatives who went through illness or trauma. I don't think I ever taught a class where I didn't learn something. So it is posting here, I think.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

We remembered Passover a bit early because we can't do a Seder anyway, and it's a bit less complicated for me in also keeping Shabbat. Last year I had a very peacful dinner by myself timed perfectly. G-d really stepped up for me though so I didn't feel lonely. It was reverent and so easy to focus on Him.

This year is kind of the opposite. Dinner was not so peacful. There was a lot of concern about using Mamaw's previously untouched china and trying the matzah ball soup. There was a tedious discussion over how much chicken the children have to eat and why they got carrots instead of the corn on the cob. ( it has to do with a loose tooth and a deep sense of sibling fairness.) There was lots of talking over each other and reminding people that I can't listen to more than one person at a time. I did a lot of praying this year as well, but it was more desperate than reverent. This Passover dinner felt much more typical, which was starting to get to me. 

I resisted the devil, got myself together, and took my expectations for myself down a notch. I couldn't read through the Bible passages without going back and repeating verses, but I repeated the verses. We had to take a bathroom break, but I waited and began again in spite of the feeling of lost momentum. I wasn't able to get through as much as I was hoping, but what I did get through, my husband hung around and listened to. 

They all know why the bread is unleavened. They know the idea of a Seder is a telling of the story, and they are aware of some of the traditions and their meanings. They at least got a sense of the depth of significance and meaning. They know what Yeshua was doing when He went to Jerusalem for the feast of unleavened bread. They know what Yeshua was remembering, celebrating, and saying when He said "do this in remembrance of me". They are, so far, all on board for the week of unleavened bread.

This is really pretty amazing and, yet I struggle with it feeling too typical. It's ironic that on some level this is exactly what I have been praying for. It's so much to pull together. I have a lot to catch up on including a new level of relationship with Him and my family, but G-d truly is answering prayers. It's so much more delicate than I realized, and I know He is working through my limits and weaknesses just as much as He is my husband's. It's kind of scary somehow. I wasn't ready for that. Glad G-d knows what He's doing. 

[garrett]

I think this was the 4th or 5th seder for my wife and me. I guess I have to do some bragging about her in that she spent a lot of time preparing for the past two days for this, so it wouldn't have been what it was without her. Everything was nice and traditional with the seder plate, cup for Elijah, lots of kosher grape juice (I can't drink four cups of wine!), a good Haggadah and we dressed up big time.

We were fortunate to have company - the presence of one of my best friends, a Catholic priest who has pretty much become my surrogate father. I met him when I used to do hospice care. I was responsible for the treatment of one of his close friends (also a priest)and "Father" and I hit it off as soon as we met. We have regularly spent time together for the past four years since then. And he is very open to learning more about this faith. He is also about twice my age, which is even more special.

We were given the privilege for this ancient observance to go so smoothly. We included the washing of hands, kiddush over the "wine", parsley in salted water, charoset with bitter herbs, matzot with bitter herbs, nitilat again, and the reading of the passover story from the Haggadah. This led to the meal and a nice, long reading of grace after the meal with many blessings read in Hebrew and as much Hebrew as I could squeeze into other parts of the seder (followed by a translation in English). I shouldn't forget to mention that we lit the festival lights and Sabbath lights at the beginning of all of this.

The thing is - as more time goes by and you get the chance to do these things again and again, it comes more naturally and it's less intimidating. You can be yourself no matter what stage you're in. You eventually settle into your own way of doing things.

I wanted to say to Elizabeth ("I struggle with it feeling too typical") - I can identify with this. There are many times on Friday nights when I know I'm going through the motions for the Sabbath blessing with my wife. However, I still did it! This is a great mitzvah and I don't think G-d placed any mood requirements on us in observance of his appointed times. The nice thing is that you went for it with Passover. I absolutely guarantee you that there was some serious chaos going on in many orthodox homes this evening throughout the world I've seen heck break loose during the reading of the scroll on a Sabbath morning when a little child in the congregation decides to have a total meltdown. But everyone carries on because that's just what you do.

I think all of us may know much more about this stuff than we realize, but we just haven't connected all the dots yet. That being said, I'm grateful for the way things turned out and I'm looking forward to the coming week with the Passover readings, matzah and the state of mind. This was a nice treat compared to how difficult the whole previous week has been.

I hope all of you are well. This is a good occasion and we get to care about it while so many others around the world are taking part in it too.

May G-d Bless You...

[Elizabeth]

Apr 22, 2016 21:30:20 GMT -8 garrett said:

I think this was the 4th or 5th seder for my wife and me. I guess I have to do some bragging about her in that she spent a lot of time preparing for the past two days for this, so it wouldn't have been what it was without her. Everything was nice and traditional with the seder plate, cup for Elijah, lots of kosher grape juice (I can't drink four cups of wine!), a good Haggadah and we dressed up big time.

We were fortunate to have company - the presence of one of my best friends, a Catholic priest who has pretty much become my surrogate father. I met him when I used to do hospice care. I was responsible for the treatment of one of his close friends (also a priest)and "Father" and I hit it off as soon as we met. We have regularly spent time together for the past four years since then. And he is very open to learning more about this faith. He is also about twice my age, which is even more special.

We were given the privilege for this ancient observance to go so smoothly. We included the washing of hands, kiddush over the "wine", parsley in salted water, charoset with bitter herbs, matzot with bitter herbs, nitilat again, and the reading of the passover story from the Haggadah. This led to the meal and a nice, long reading of grace after the meal with many blessings read in Hebrew and as much Hebrew as I could squeeze into other parts of the seder (followed by a translation in English). I shouldn't forget to mention that we lit the festival lights and Sabbath lights at the beginning of all of this.

The thing is - as more time goes by and you get the chance to do these things again and again, it comes more naturally and it's less intimidating. You can be yourself no matter what stage you're in. You eventually settle into your own way of doing things.

I wanted to say to Elizabeth ("I struggle with it feeling too typical") - I can identify with this. There are many times on Friday nights when I know I'm going through the motions for the Sabbath blessing with my wife. However, I still did it! This is a great mitzvah and I don't think G-d placed any mood requirements on us in observance of his appointed times. The nice thing is that you went for it with Passover. I absolutely guarantee you that there was some serious chaos going on in many orthodox homes this evening throughout the world I've seen heck break loose during the reading of the scroll on a Sabbath morning when a little child in the congregation decides to have a total meltdown. But everyone carries on because that's just what you do.

I think all of us may know much more about this stuff than we realize, but we just haven't connected all the dots yet. That being said, I'm grateful for the way things turned out and I'm looking forward to the coming week with the Passover readings, matzah and the state of mind. This was a nice treat compared to how difficult the whole previous week has been.

I hope all of you are well. This is a good occasion and we get to care about it while so many others around the world are taking part in it too.

May G-d Bless You...

That sounds wonderful. Very nice job Garret and wife, and really special how G-d seems to have brought you and your friend together. Blessings to you and yours too!