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Post by Mark on Apr 16, 2009 5:19:59 GMT -8
The Passover Festival isn't just a big evening meal; and if that is the extent of your celebration then you are not getting your money's worth. There are seven days of unleavened bread where we eat only matzah (matzah pizza, matzah pancakes, matzah peanut butter and jelly sandwiches...). We eat other things than just matzah; but every day it is served up in some new and different way, crumbled up in chilli, or swathered with butter and sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar.
The first few years of this experience, like in so many other areas of life, our perspective is completely backwards. We view these seven days as "the fast from leaven" as opposed to "the Feast of Unleavened Bread". It's funny that there are so many other areas of worship that our lives are so negatively looked upon.
I've had folks come up to me and ask, "So you're the people who don't get to do anything on Saturday?" I answer, "No, we're the people who choose to make Saturday special as a day of rest and worship." I could stop there; but the conviction of the Ruakh Kodesh bears just as heavily upon me in concerns of other areas of my life. I'm also the person who chooses to bear the burden of my own financial status when Messiah commanded me to take no thought for tomorrow, and seek only the Kingdom of God and His righteousness- He'll take care of the rest. I'm the person who envies those who appear successful in their ministries though their theology and agenda is to promote themselves above even the Word of God they claim to teach. I could go on but the list gets much more personal. The truth is that we hoard our lives, we long for carnality just as we miss the leaven: the leeks and the onions we left in Egypt.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. (Philippians 4:8 KJV)
For seven days we have made the focus of our meals a little white cracker. We haven't eaten it, wishing it was something soft and lumpy. We've enjoyed the way that it explodes between out teeth. Even sweeping the floor after each meal has been uniquely interesting (you can always easily see where you've missed). The manner in which we plan our meals has been more carefully thought out. It has been a festival- no fast, We haven't missed leaven in our home at all (at least I haven't). The days have gone so quickly!
So, maybe, if this was so easy and such pleasure, it shouldn't be so hard to purge out some other things in my life that shouldn't be there. Maybe the answer is to fill the hollowness and fattiness with crisp and simple.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. (Philippians 4:8 KJV)
Last night we got together and celebrated the holy convocation of the last day of unleavened bread. We had ice cream and frsh fruit. No one asked about cake or doughnuts. The fellowship was festive and sweet. How much we miss when we choose our own passions above God's goodness!
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Post by shammuel on Apr 18, 2009 6:39:38 GMT -8
Shalom! If you want to explain me something..... Whem Mesiah give the new Seder to hid disciples...was in 13 Nisan...what I don't understand is what was on they're table...because I suppose that there was no pesah lamb (because the Levits sacrifice them in 14 Nisan). And someone tells me that Yeshua take from the tabe the azyme that was hidden from the cildren..how the custom is.....but....that woul mean that on the table they haved the lamb also...if that was a seder meal.... what is messing to me? I dont attack you...because I also keep the Pesah on 14 Nisan etc. but I asking for you're halp.... thank you! Sorry for my gramathical errors....I am a beginer in you're language.
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Post by Mark on Apr 18, 2009 7:04:05 GMT -8
Hi Shammuel,
Thanks for writing and for overcoming the difficulties in language. If I said that I had the conclusive answer to your question, I would be going against centuries of debate by the most powerful theological minds that have ever lived. I'm bold, but not that bold. So, let me just give you the conclusion that makes the most sense to me.
I believe that Messiah celebrated the Passover Seder on the same night as everyone else: 14 Nisan at sundown. The events that followed could not have taken place otherwise without the greatest of impropriety. The trials that took place the following day and evening would have been in violation of the Passover Sabbath, the priests and officials would have been engaged in trial proceedings as opposed to celebrating their own seder meals. This is not at all likely.
The confusion mainly comes John 18-19 where, while Yeshua was in custody, there was concern about the "preparation of the Passover". This may easily have been referring the fellowship offering that would take place on the Sabbath after the Passover Seder.
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Post by shammuel on Apr 18, 2009 23:14:04 GMT -8
Thank you! I have one more questin...if it's not too much....
Here, in Romania are two opinions: Some people say that we can work in 16-20 Nisan and others say that we shall have all seven days as holidays (15-21 Nisan)...and everibody comes whit some scriptural arguments ...I speak about the unleavened bread now!
I want to know you're opinion
I am apologize for abundance of my questinos! Thank you for understanding!
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Post by Mark on Apr 19, 2009 5:41:00 GMT -8
The Sabbaths are specifically described as being two in the week: the first and the seventh.
And in the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
(Exodus 12:16 KJV)
I would be curious to know what Scripture references are used to support the week-long Sabbath.
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Post by shammuel on Apr 19, 2009 9:41:13 GMT -8
Exodus 12:16 In the first day there shall be to you a holy convocation, and in the seventh day a holy convocation; no kind of work shall be done in them, except that which every man must eat, that only may be done by you.
The principal argument is the last part from this vers: "no kind of work shall be done in them, except that which every man must eat, that only may be done by you." They say that we can not prepare the food in the first and the last day of the feast...because we can not kindle fire etc...and from that they say we are alowed to prepare the food in 16-20 Nisan (only in thise thays)...And, they say, if the Bible say that we can prepare the food in 16-20 Nisan...from here results that an other kind of work is not permited (they have other things that they do in 16-20 Nisan also...thay call it "half-Shabbath"...in my language "semi-sarbatoare"....thay have some arguments also but this is the principal arg to support they're opinion... for example that at Tebernacle Yeshua has go up at middle of feast...the people have to offer sacrifices and if they were at the Temple for sacrifices thay dosen't go to work....
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 19, 2009 12:53:14 GMT -8
Hi Shammuel, Thanks for writing and for overcoming the difficulties in language. If I said that I had the conclusive answer to your question, I would be going against centuries of debate by the most powerful theological minds that have ever lived. I'm bold, but not that bold. So, let me just give you the conclusion that makes the most sense to me. I believe that Messiah celebrated the Passover Seder on the same night as everyone else: 14 Nisan at sundown. The events that followed could not have taken place otherwise without the greatest of impropriety. The trials that took place the following day and evening would have been in violation of the Passover Sabbath, the priests and officials would have been engaged in trial proceedings as opposed to celebrating their own seder meals. This is not at all likely. The confusion mainly comes John 18-19 where, while Yeshua was in custody, there was concern about the "preparation of the Passover". This may easily have been referring the fellowship offering that would take place on the Sabbath after the Passover Seder. Hi Mark, I believe Yeshua and His disciples didn't have a seder because the 'supper' was before the Passover. He was crucified the Preparation Day and the 'supper' was the night before. It's my belief that this 'supper' wasn't a Passover seder. Marc |
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Post by Mark on Apr 19, 2009 15:35:07 GMT -8
That is a common argument; but I don't believe that it is consistent with the gospel description of what Messiah told His disciples to prepare:
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. (Luke 22:8 KJV)
I think that the scholars who came to this conclusion needed to justify either the JOhn 18-19 passage or the Messisah's instruction to prepare the Passover, not realizing that both could be accurate, since the the Passover sacrifice can refer to the fellowship offering as well as the Passover lamb.
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 19, 2009 16:59:24 GMT -8
Hi Mark,
According to the other Gospels it appears that the preparing of the Passover was in future tense. I verified this with a Greek professor at the university I work at. In other words in the other Gospels the translations could be better to give it that affect.
I know it's up in the air so to speak but...
1- Yeshua was crucified and in the grave the preparation day
2- the 'supper' was prior
If he ate the Passover with His disciples on the Passover that means He was crucified when? Which doesn't make sense.
For conversation purposes only......
Passover on Wednesday night(after sundown).
Yeshua crucified and in the grave Wednesday day(before sundown, preparation day).
Tuesday night would have to been 'the supper'.
Because in the Greek it suggests future tenses like...
Mark 14:12 And concerning the first day of unleavened bread, (at which time they had sacrificed the Passover), his disciples said unto him, "Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that you may eat the Passover?
Luke 22:7 And He came regarding the day of unleavened bread, for which it was necessary to have sacrificed the Passover, and He sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare us for the Passover, that we may eat
Marc
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Post by Mark on Apr 19, 2009 17:07:50 GMT -8
Of course it was future tense because He was commanding them to prepare. The preparation that they were to make was for the Passover, "that WE may eat." Remember that it is they who brought up the question, knowing that the appointed time for Passover was upon them.
The problem is that the modern scholar has decided that he wants Messiah to have been neatly "sacrificed" at the same time as the Passover lambs were slaughtered. It's good for Hallmark; but is inconsistent with the text.
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 19, 2009 23:13:40 GMT -8
Hi Mark,
You said;
Yeshua couldn't have celebrated the Passover seder at 14th of Nisan because He was crucified on that day which was preparation day which was before sundown before the Passover.
What I'm saying is the 'meal' that He and His disciples had wasn't a Passover seder because the 'meal' was before the Passover.
Marc
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Post by Mark on Apr 20, 2009 0:22:44 GMT -8
Your position is traditional, not biblical.
The presumption is that the "day of preparation" (Matthew 27:62 and John 19:42) was regarding the Passover Seder, which was held in each individual's home, not the Temple. This presumption was established by those who did not realize that the Sabbath sacrifices at the Temple following 14 Nissan was also referred to as the Passover sacrifice and was a community event.
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 20, 2009 1:07:20 GMT -8
Your position is traditional, not biblical. The presumption is that the "day of preparation" (Matthew 27:62 and John 19:42) was regarding the Passover Seder, which was held in each individual's home, not the Temple. This presumption was established by those who did not realize that the Sabbath sacrifices at the Temple following 14 Nissan was also referred to as the Passover sacrifice and was a community event. Hi Mark, Yeshua had the 'supper' prior to the day of preparation and the Passover. Are you suggesting that the 'supper' was a Passover seder even though it was prior to the day of preparation and the Passover? Passover is 14th Nisan which is at sundown. How could Yeshua and His disiples had a Passover seder if what they had was 13th Nisan? Again for conversation purposes only; Tuesday night(13th Nisan)- had a 'supper, Yeshua was betrayed, was 'arrested' brought to trial and went from 'here to there' Wednesday day(13th Nisan)- still in trial, crucified prior to sundown before Passover Wednesday sundown(14th Nisan)- would be Passover seders at individual homes and not the Temple Yeshua couldn't have had a Passover seder on 14th Nisan because He was already in the grave. Marc |
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Post by Mark on Apr 20, 2009 5:26:56 GMT -8
By what biblical evidence do you state that Yeshua was int he grave on 14 Nisan?
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12 KJV)
Was the Passover Seder to be corporately held on the second or third day of Unleavened bread?
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 20, 2009 17:05:10 GMT -8
By what biblical evidence do you state that Yeshua was int he grave on 14 Nisan? And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12 KJV) Was the Passover Seder to be corporately held on the second or third day of Unleavened bread? Hi Mark as I said in the Greek it is future tense as; " Mark 14:12 And concerning the first day of unleavened bread, (at which time they had sacrificed the Passover), his disciples said unto him, "Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that you may eat the Passover?" concerning: The subject of the 15th of Nisan is introduced by Mark. It was not actually the first day of unleavened bread when the questions were asked. As was proper they were making arrangements before the event. The Greek expresses the word concerning with the dative case, often translated "to" or "for", however, in view of the fact that the dative represents a LAMED in Hebrew and Aramaic, the sense of the text is concerning or with respect to in those languages. at which time: or "for which time", "by which time" had sacrificed: The nuance is important here. The imperfect indicates that on the 15th it was customary to have the lamb sacrificed. Only it is in a pluperfect sense reaching back to the 14th (Wallace, pg. 549). Finally, the whole context is put into the form of plans being made beforehand. This idea can be represented in English more fully with the gloss: by which time they would customarily have had the Passover sacrificed." Passover begins at sundown with 1st seder. Yeshua didn't get to have the 1st seder with His disciples because He was crucified on the preparation day before the Passover. Which means the 'supper' He had wasn't a Passover seder because it was held the night before the preparation day. 1-He was crucified on the 14th Nisan(day time). 2- He was in the grave 3 days , 3 nights Let's this was on a Wednesday for conversation purposes only... Wednesday day and Wednesday night= 1 day(In Jewish or Hebraic context there is no such thing as parts of days) Thursday day and Thursday night= 2 days Friday day and Friday night= 3 days Friday night He resurrected This is assuming that the 14th of Nisan was on a Wednesday in that day. Marc |
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