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Post by Mark on Apr 20, 2009 18:00:46 GMT -8
Yes, I've heard that before; but being a student of the Greek text, myself, you must understand that these tenses cannot specify how much farther into the future the discussion is referencing.
The description of the discussion taking place in Mark 14:12, "kai tae protae hymerah" is that it was currently happening on the first day, present-active. While this conversation was taking place, it was in fact being the 1st day of unleavened bread. Wallace is stretching to make his point, unfortunately unchallenged (because most people don't really care). However, there are a number of card-carryng theologians who agree with the rendition I have offered, Kenneth Wuest, Walvoord & Zuck, etc...
The disciples asked Messiah Yeshua how they were going to partake of the supper. It was they who expressed a sense of urgency at the matter. This would not likely have been the case had the meal taken place in advance of what was normal. And since Luke in particular is careful to take note of those things which occur out of the ordinary, the would be little doubt of him mentioning that Messiah prepared the Seder days in advance.
Another seldom considered factor is that while the Temple stood, there was no such thing as "the Passover" without the Passover lamb. They may have commemorated or practiced the teachings of Passover; but if the lamb were not present, it would not have been called "ho Pesakh": THE Passover, which it is repeatedly Matthew, Mark and Luke.
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Post by Mpossoff on Apr 20, 2009 23:02:25 GMT -8
Yes, I've heard that before; but being a student of the Greek text, myself, you must understand that these tenses cannot specify how much farther into the future the discussion is referencing. The description of the discussion taking place in Mark 14:12, "kai tae protae hymerah" is that it was currently happening on the first day, present-active. While this conversation was taking place, it was in fact being the 1st day of unleavened bread. Wallace is stretching to make his point, unfortunately unchallenged (because most people don't really care). However, there are a number of card-carryng theologians who agree with the rendition I have offered, Kenneth Wuest, Walvoord & Zuck, etc... The disciples asked Messiah Yeshua how they were going to partake of the supper. It was they who expressed a sense of urgency at the matter. This would not likely have been the case had the meal taken place in advance of what was normal. And since Luke in particular is careful to take note of those things which occur out of the ordinary, the would be little doubt of him mentioning that Messiah prepared the Seder days in advance. Another seldom considered factor is that while the Temple stood, there was no such thing as "the Passover" without the Passover lamb. They may have commemorated or practiced the teachings of Passover; but if the lamb were not present, it would not have been called "ho Pesakh": THE Passover, which it is repeatedly Matthew, Mark and Luke. Hi Mark, The reason why of my posts regarding the future tenses is because if we go by what you have said then Yeshua was crucified when? Because He was brought from 'here to there' and on 'trial' the preparation day. So if we go with what you say then... 1- He went from 'here to there' and on trial the preparation day; 13th Nisan 2- Then had Passover seder with disciples; 14th Nisan 3- the question is according to above then He must have been crucified the 15th of Nisan 4- no way He could have been crucified and on trial on a High Sabbath is why the opponents wanted it done before the High Sabbath(preparation day) 5- scripture doesn't indicate that He was brought to trial and crucified after the High Sabbath Marc |
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Post by Mark on Apr 21, 2009 3:20:54 GMT -8
I'm sorry, Marc; but your response isn't making sense to me right now. It's not you. It's probably me; but it is just after 4 in the morning. The only reason that I bring it up is that I won't be able to continue this discussion until, probably, Thursday at the earliest because of deadlines and work schedule and stuff. If you want to re-iterate what you are saying, though, it might be helpful; but again, the confusion is probably on my side.
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Post by Mark on Apr 22, 2009 3:30:13 GMT -8
Lots of folks may wonder why it is so important when Messiah held His last Passover. For folks like Dr. Wallace, it's important because otherwise he would have to understand Hebraic culture and tradition in order to justify the seeming contradiction between Mark 14 and John 18, the the Passover Sacrifice could be something different than than the Passover lamb. For me, it is important because  does not allow the Passover to be held on Nisan 13. The command is specific... and while Messiah could argue He had a justifiable reason for doing so, changing the command in any way, to a Jewish prospect invalidates Him as the Messiah. But the answer is so much simpler than we might expect. When I lead our Passover Seder in my home or for a group, I am careful to explain that we are not "keeping" the Passover. We are celebrating, teaching and commemorating it; but we are not keeping it. This is because there is no Temple in Jerusalem where the lamb can be sacrificed and because we are not sharing the Passover lamb. No lamb - no Passover, it is central to the celebration... and you can't order ahead. Messiah could have hosted any number of kinds of celebrations; but without the Passover lamb, sacrificed at the Temple mount by the priests, it would not have been called the Passover. Math is not my strongest subject; but why are you presuming that Passover must have been Wednesday night? |
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Sanil
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Post by Sanil on Apr 22, 2009 9:22:39 GMT -8
The presumption is that the "day of preparation" (Matthew 27:62 and John 19:42) was regarding the Passover Seder, which was held in each individual's home, not the Temple. This presumption was established by those who did not realize that the Sabbath sacrifices at the Temple following 14 Nissan was also referred to as the Passover sacrifice and was a community event. Thanks, this makes sense. Can you tell me how you know this and suggest good sources to read? |
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Post by Mark on Apr 22, 2009 16:09:36 GMT -8
HI Sanil,
I just gave away the book in which I was first exposed to this, I'll try to remember the exact title. A friend was interested in the Messianic Passover Hagadah and I knew this book had a fairly descriptive overview.
I'll also try to look up some references you can verify online- much of the really old materials are now available. If you want to do a search on your own, this sacrifice is symbolized by some as represented by the roasted egg on the seder tray.
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Post by shammuel on Apr 30, 2009 22:43:46 GMT -8
Exodus 12:16 In the first day there shall be to
you a holy convocation, and in the seventh
day a holy convocation; no kind of work shall
be done in them, except that which every
man must eat, that only may be done by you.
Can I prepare what I have to eat in 15 and 21(the first and the last day of unlevened bread feast) Nisan in that day? Why?
Shalom!
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Post by shammuel on May 12, 2009 23:38:31 GMT -8
waiting......  pls someone answer me!!! |
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Post by Mark on May 13, 2009 3:18:51 GMT -8
First, it is important to understand the difference between the Hebrew words "meh-la-kaw" and "ah-bahd". The word melakaw refers to the things that one does for a living, your employment. It is consistently the "work" which is forbidden on the Sabbath day. The word abad is simply the act of doing.
It is lawful to "prepare" one's food, especially since these specific days are a feast of unleavened bread. What this may be confused with is the command to not kindle a fire. It is not lawful to bake bread on the Sabbath. This must be done the day before.
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Post by shammuel on Feb 12, 2010 11:37:03 GMT -8
Returning with a new question: mtza was made of old crop wheat? I am asking theat because the new wheat harvest take place at Shavuot only ... so only with the new barley harvest.
Can you explain me what's happened in Luke 6:1-5?
Blessings
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does not allow the Passover to be held on Nisan 13. The command is specific... and while Messiah could argue He had a justifiable reason for doing so, changing the command in any way, to a Jewish prospect invalidates Him as the Messiah.
pls someone answer me!!! 
