veggirl
Full Member
Greetings!
Posts: 103
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Post by veggirl on Jun 29, 2009 17:21:07 GMT -8
Hello, There are so many Messianic groups out there how does someone weed out the one they would stay in forever and ever? I don't even know how to understand all the teaches because there so many different Messianic teachings.. I think its like the christian churches ,, like when I was Mormon I called myself a christian,, but now I know that Mormons are not christians and I know christians are not even christians.. because they don't keep sabbath like Yeshua did.. and all the kosher laws..  Why are there so many religions? I might be a little stressed out...  |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Jun 30, 2009 0:12:10 GMT -8
See sister i think what should be our way of life is that if there´s a difference in the doctrine the brothers and sisters from different groups should get togehter and debate it and find the truth together.
As long as we confess Shema yisrael adonai elohenu adonai echad and believe in the whole scripture we are brothers and sisters in faith.
We should however not make mistake of the christians. I debate them a lot and their main argument for their doctrine starts with:" I personally think that ...".
If we have differences we should not consider what we think but what the scriptures says and those who believe with all their heart will only consider the holy scripture. We should thus not seperate too much but debate in unity and love and with best manner.
That´s how finally if we act like that sincerely and not hypocritical and if we care for the Lord´s will and not for our own desires we´ll finally find the truth together.
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Walter
New Member
It's all about Yada YHWH
Posts: 12
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Post by Walter on Jun 30, 2009 1:39:09 GMT -8
Veggirl
What you bring up is all to common of a problem in seeking a Scriptural assembly.
I myself live in a very rual area have no kind of fellowship. I have only found 1 assembly and they are live 7 hours away, and the road there is closed in the winter.
Here are some guidelines I use in seeking fellowship:
They don't have to have it "right", but they have to be seeking and desiring YHWH's Truth.
They have to be willing to reason together with The Scriptures.
I'm not interested in learning or practicing the traditions of men - religion.
I didn't reject christian traditions and practices to only pick up new ones.
Look at the leadership, what are their beliefs and vision.
ACTION speaks louder than words - how do they act and respond.
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Post by danstevens on Apr 30, 2013 13:39:06 GMT -8
Walter! I'm not sure confessing the Shema is what should be what makes us all brothers and sisters. The book of Revelation says Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua. Doesn't it make more sense to you that we are united in our Faith in Yeshua and the commandments of God than some man made ritual that uses scripture to support a babylonian custom used to honor Mithras. Where is Scripture do you find the command to face East (toward the rising sun, with your back to the temple doors which you would have to face west to enter and towards the Holy of Holies which represents the throne of God to whom we are to pray to) and recite Deut 6:4-9 plus some added words (Deut 4:2 you shall not add to)?
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Post by Yedidyah on Apr 30, 2013 16:53:55 GMT -8
Walter! I'm not sure confessing the Shema is what should be what makes us all brothers and sisters. The book of Revelation says Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua. Doesn't it make more sense to you that we are united in our Faith in Yeshua and the commandments of God than some man made ritual that uses scripture to support a babylonian custom used to honor Mithras. Where is Scripture do you find the command to face East (toward the rising sun, with your back to the temple doors which you would have to face west to enter and towards the Holy of Holies which represents the throne of God to whom we are to pray to) and recite Deut 6:4-9 plus some added words (Deut 4:2 you shall not add to)? I just want to be clear here, not all Jewish customs are wrong and I see you are attacking some of the more beautiful parts of being Jewish like singing the Shema. I see so many formal gentiles come into realizing the  matters then they bring their own baggage into it telling everyone how it should be done and why. I have looked at you previous posts here and they have something in common, you attack the Jewish customs in some way within every post. Instead of learning from the Jewish people who were given the Oracles of the Father, the ones he entrusted with HIS WORD. Romans 3:2-4 2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. 3 If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God’s faithfulness? 4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! — as the Tanakh says, “so that you, God, may be proved right in your words and win the verdict when you are put on trial.” Without the Jewish people there would be no Israel, there would be nothing for you to be grafted into. The Jewish people are as much a part of Israel as Israel is part of the Jewish people. I am just letting you know your comments would be a huge stumbling block for our Jewish brothers and sisters and in that I caution you on not attacking all Jewish customs as being wrong. Shalom, Yedidyah |
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Post by danstevens on May 1, 2013 7:24:00 GMT -8
Not all Jewish Customs and beliefs are wrong. But those that are not found in are questionable. Yeshua said we will know them by their fruits. Does the fruit of their traditions conform with ? Be honest. Does kissing the as it is paraded around the room differ greatly from catholics kissing the cross as it is paraded around the room? Is it in that you find this? I will agree to only one thing and it is confirmed by Yeshua himself. What Judaism teaches that is from the that I will do. If it is not in I will not. I do not see a command to kiss the . I do not see a command to recite the shema. I even understand why these things are done. As I have said in the past on this forum I have been there, done that, rejected it when my eyes were open to the hypocrisy of trading one set of man made traditons for another set of man made traditions. I have not said that you can not do it. I have simply said that we need to clean up our act so that when Yeshua returns he finds a "spotless" bride. Remember my friends there are 10 virgins, All were asleep all were awakened but only five had their act together enough to enter. |
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tonga
Full Member
Posts: 243
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Post by tonga on May 1, 2013 10:18:59 GMT -8
I don't know if he is attacking them so much as saying it is not necessary for Messianics to observe them. After all they are Jewish customs, and should be set aside for Jews to observe.
What is the point of non-Jews doing things which have no bearing to scripture? Is doing something just because someone likes it, enough of a reason to take on the customs of others?
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Post by alon on May 1, 2013 10:57:02 GMT -8
Not all Jewish Customs and beliefs are wrong. But those that are not found in are questionable. Yeshua said we will know them by their fruits. Does the fruit of their traditions conform with ? Be honest. ... All right, I will be brutally honest. The attitude you display in many of your posts is endemic of the reasons I rebelled and left mainstream Christianity even before I left home. You want us to wake up and change our ways, rejecting anything Judaic. But I have to wonder ... If my father had blessed me instead of trying to beat the devil out of me at every opportunity, would I have cursed God and assaulted the law at every opportunity? Blessings are a particularly beautiful part of Jewish "tradition" that never made it into main-C. How about the picture of the father as he comes to the child who found the leaven, says "I'll take care of it" and uses a feather (the Ruach) to scoop the leaven (sin) onto a wooden spoon (the cross), wraps it in a linen cloth (burial shroud) and disposes of it outside the home on a communal fire. Now that is a much better picture of dealing with sin than someone yelling in your face about it, telling you you're only good enough to be left out of the feast. And about that feast, the foolish virgins were unprepared. That is the reason they were left out. They were supposed to watch and be ready. The only way you'll come to understand what to be prepared for is through understanding Hebrew customs and the feasts. So my advice to you is to follow the advice of Pastor Mark Biltz who said "They (the Jews) know in part, and we (gentiles) know in part; the first one to humble himself before God and meet Him in the middle wins- he gets it all!" Or, you could continue to follow the advice of Constantine ... but we have seen where that leads to. Dan C |
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Post by alon on May 1, 2013 11:11:38 GMT -8
I don't know if he is attacking them so much as saying it is not necessary for Messianics to observe them. After all they are Jewish customs, and should be set aside for Jews to observe. What is the point of non-Jews doing things which have no bearing to scripture? Is doing something just because someone likes it, enough of a reason to take on the customs of others? No, we should adopt many of the Jewish customs because they bear fruit! We should adopt them for the understanding they bring, for the attitudes they engender. My wife tells me when I say things like this that is an ideal picture of Judaism, and not all Jews are like that. I'm sure she is correct. But there are a lot of things we should hold as true in both camps that have slipped away. You can only discover what is true, what is good and worth keeping by delving in and "trying on" the culture, and by reviving things in your own culture that have slipped away. I'm happy that danstevens has found his path. But frankly, with the borderline anti-Semitic attitude he shows I am not willing to let him guide me to where I want to be. His interpretations of the words of Yeshua and Paul could have been lifted right out of any main C seminary syllabus. I'll certainly consider his posts, as sometimes it is better to get an opinion that is diametrically opposed to the norm here for balance, if nothing else. But really, I've heard it all before- all my life. Dan C |
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Post by yiska on May 1, 2013 12:03:24 GMT -8
I don't see anything wrong with wanting to learn Yeshua language and his customs traditions of the jewish laws ... messianic or not. Micah 4:2 CJB Many Gentiles will go and say, "Come, let's go up to the mountain of ADONAI, to the house of the God of Ya'akov! He will teach us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths." For out of Tziyon will go forth , the word of ADONAI from Yerushalayim. Matthew 12:18 CJB "Here is my servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will announce justice to the Gentiles. Romans 11:17 CJB But if some of the branches were broken off, and you - a wild olive - were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree, Romans 11:19 CJB So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Romans 11:23 CJB Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in. Romans 11:24 CJB For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! |
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Post by danstevens on May 1, 2013 14:48:30 GMT -8
now now We are not to call names I thought that was an agreed upon thing here. I am not Anti-Semetic. I am anti Rabbinical Judaism. This is the problem with discussing these things. Someone gets their favorite custom stepped on and suddenly someone is anti-semetic. I am as Anti Rabbinical Judasim as I am Anti Baptist anti Catholic anti Presbeterian anti anything that is not . Kapesh? I don't pick on one set of false values while upholding another. Guess this is the wrong forum for me.. Thought you guys were observant not Rabbinic Judaism observant oh well Never Call me anti-semetic again.. You do owe me an apology. I don't hate Jews I don't even hate religious Jews. I just don't wish to add to or take away from the law of God. |
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Post by messianicmama on May 1, 2013 15:53:21 GMT -8
now now We are not to call names I thought that was an agreed upon thing here. I am not Anti-Semetic. I am anti Rabbinical Judaism. This is the problem with discussing these things. Someone gets their favorite custom stepped on and suddenly someone is anti-semetic. I am as Anti Rabbinical Judasim as I am Anti Baptist anti Catholic anti Presbeterian anti anything that is not . Kapesh? I don't pick on one set of false values while upholding another. Guess this is the wrong forum for me.. Thought you guys were observant not Rabbinic Judaism observant oh well Never Call me anti-semetic again.. You do owe me an apology. I don't hate Jews I don't even hate religious Jews. I just don't wish to add to or take away from the law of God. To be anti-Judaism is to be anti-semitic. I'm not going to apologize for believing that. There is a HUGE difference between the things you post and the things your run of the mill Karaite types post. I recommend you reevaluate your beliefs and the way you come across when you post because if you don't think you are anti-semetic, you sure do sound like it here. |
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Post by alon on May 1, 2013 22:34:44 GMT -8
now now We are not to call names I thought that was an agreed upon thing here. I don't believe I called you any names. I talked about your attitude which appears to be "borderline anti-Semitic." Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks that.; it's how you come across. Which custom would that be? I've disagreed with almost everyone here at one time or another, yet we all get along fine. And you did say "be honest." I'm not "anti" any of those things. I am anti the false teachings in them. But both a Baptist minister and a rabbi can have good insights into a particular problem. In fact, they can have vastly different insights to the same question and BOTH be correct! Where is the value in railing against everything either says just because they are who they are? And this is the problem- you think a rabbi can have no valid input on observance. He only has over 3500 years of experience at it to fall back on ... I'll agree with you about the fences and maybe even about some details being incorrect in Rabbinical Judaism. But I won't throw the rabbi out with the bathwater, nor will I discard any custom just because it wasn't laid down in . As long as it isn't proscribed and doesn't disagree, then I'll look at it to see if there is value in it. I didn't call you anti-Semitic, I said your attitude was borderline anti-Semitic; but ok, I do humbly apologize for offending you. I will still disagree with you about all traditions not found in (or otherwise in scripture) being bad. Do you shake hands when greeting someone? Call some "Mr."? Kiss your wife when you come home (or maybe rub noses)? Traditions are a part of every-day life. We also celebrate Thanksgiving, Labor Day and Memorial Day. Right? So might I suggest you stop pounding on anything not in just because a rabbi or a Baptist might agree with it. If you have a problem with a particular tradition (other than "OH NO, IT'S RABBINIC  ) then show where it violates scripture and we can discuss it. Otherwise, well ... what's the point? Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Dec 31, 2013 17:51:48 GMT -8
Walter! I'm not sure confessing the Shema is what should be what makes us all brothers and sisters. The book of Revelation says Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua. Doesn't it make more sense to you that we are united in our Faith in Yeshua and the commandments of God than some man made ritual that uses scripture to support a babylonian custom used to honor Mithras. Where is Scripture do you find the command to face East (toward the rising sun, with your back to the temple doors which you would have to face west to enter and towards the Holy of Holies which represents the throne of God to whom we are to pray to) and recite Deut 6:4-9 plus some added words (Deut 4:2 you shall not add to)? I just want to be clear here, not all Jewish customs are wrong and I see you are attacking some of the more beautiful parts of being Jewish like singing the Shema. I see so many formal gentiles come into realizing the matters then they bring their own baggage into it telling everyone how it should be done and why. I have looked at you previous posts here and they have something in common, you attack the Jewish customs in some way within every post. Instead of learning from the Jewish people who were given the Oracles of the Father, the ones he entrusted with HIS WORD. Romans 3:2-4 2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. 3 If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God’s faithfulness? 4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! — as the Tanakh says, “so that you, God, may be proved right in your words and win the verdict when you are put on trial.” Without the Jewish people there would be no Israel, there would be nothing for you to be grafted into. The Jewish people are as much a part of Israel as Israel is part of the Jewish people. I am just letting you know your comments would be a huge stumbling block for our Jewish brothers and sisters and in that I caution you on not attacking all Jewish customs as being wrong. Shalom, Yedidyah
The shema is a marvelous statement about YHVH, and Messianics can gladly sing it if they so choose, for it is about YHVH being echad...which He is. I do, because it is both beautiful and true.
It is where customs conflict with scripture that Messianics should take issue with customs, since they are mostly cultural. Well intended at their inception, no doubt, but still cultural rules, whether Jewish or Greco/Roman. Some Jewish ones are unnecessary for non-Jews, and some Greco/Roman ones are to be avoided as dangerous, as they can tend to the idolatrous, or even blasphemus.
Our delight as Messianics should be to search out ways to follow all the commandments in that apply to us these days, following YHVH in practical obedience to His desires, and thanking Him for the gift of Yeshua for when we fail, as our righteousness is not established by our performance, but by His.
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Post by Questor on Dec 31, 2013 18:03:48 GMT -8
Hello, There are so many Messianic groups out there how does someone weed out the one they would stay in forever and ever? I don't even know how to understand all the teaches because there so many different Messianic teachings.. I think its like the christian churches ,, like when I was Mormon I called myself a christian,, but now I know that Mormons are not christians and I know christians are not even christians.. because they don't keep sabbath like Yeshua did.. and all the kosher laws.. Why are there so many religions? I might be a little stressed out...
Since then, whenever you get away from Scripture, Tanakh or Brit Chadashah, and the translations from Hebrew into whatever language you speak, you get opinion, and another religion, generally to the benefit of those running it, and the demons that attach themselves to those religions and fan the flames of discord and unrighteousness.
Which is why we do not belong to a religion at all, but follow Yeshua haMeshiach, and seek to walk the way He walked...in obedience to YHVH. And where our obedience fails, as it inevitably does, us being human, and fallen from grace, His righteousness covers us, even as our Kinsman Redeemer, and future Bridegroom.
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matters then they bring their own baggage into it telling everyone how it should be done and why. I have looked at you previous posts here and they have something in common, you attack the Jewish customs in some way within every post. Instead of learning from the Jewish people who were given the Oracles of the Father, the ones he entrusted with HIS WORD.
